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Thanks for eliminating the Puppy Dog!


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#151 kvanpelt

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:27 PM

Maybe we can talk Swiss into this for the Sano! :victory:
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#152 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:31 PM

He has said numerous times that hand-outs are the way to go.
James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#153 MSwiss

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:33 PM

I think the hand-out motor idea for IRRA Premier Events is a good one! I would support that 110%...

 

Maybe we can talk Swiss into this for the Sano! :victory:


Personally, I'm all for it.
 
This (Sano 9 GTC Coupe race) is certainly the best argument for it:
 
1) Howie Ursaner - 295 laps, best time of 4.669 in blue
2) Ralph Thorne - 294, 4.647 in blue
3) Kevin VanPelt - 294, 4.581 in blue 
4) Ross Scharf - 293, 4.651 in blue
5) Greg Fox - 293, 4.646 in blue
6) Mike Swiss - 292, 4.673 in orange
7) Joe "Noose" Neumeister - 292, 4.643 in green
8) Bernie Schatz - 241, 4.886 in blue
9) Les Chase - 16, 4.699 in green
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#154 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 02:28 PM

Show me where one PD was shown to be illegal. You should know when an FK was tampered with, it was your race! Just stating the facts, Mike.

I do participate in IRRA® races every now and then. Outlaw series runs can am with RH only. I gave Ralph a hard time about the motor choice, just ask him.

Greg said talks were happening about changing the motor list for a long time, and yet sponsorship money was still accepted from Pro Slot. Did yall even let him know his products were no longer going to be legal before you ousted them?

I would give the benefit of the doubt, but the timing makes it look very very odd.

The constant assumption that if you don't use our rules you shouldn't comment on the rules is a great way to dwindle participation.

 
First point: The problem was/is the construction of a PD from selected parts and subsequently sealed. That motor meets the specifications but it was illegally obtained in violation of the rules. With respect, your point is completely irrelevant.
 
Your sponsorship accusation is an ethical rather than a technical one.
 
As for comments on rule sets not used by the person commenting, I wish all who would like to implement that limitation a rather sarcastic "good luck."
 
I am of the opinion that the PD is a nice little motor. I had high hopes for it when it first appeared. As is often the case, unintended consequences have sealed its demise.


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#155 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 02:30 PM

Ask the BoD if it was legal to send in unsealed motors...


James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#156 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 02:32 PM

Personally, I'm all for it.
 
This (Sano 9 GTC Coupe race) is certainly the best argument for it;
 
1) Howie Ursaner - 295 laps, best time of 4.669 in blue
2) Ralph Thorne - 294, 4.647 in blue
3) Kevin VanPelt - 294, 4.581 in blue 
4) Ross Scharf - 293, 4.651 in blue
5) Greg Fox - 293, 4.646 in blue
6) Mike Swiss - 292, 4.673 in orange
7) Joe "Noose" Neumeister - 292, 4.643 in green
8) Bernie Schatz - 241, 4.886 in blue
9) Les Chase - 16, 4.699 in green


So are we to assume the next Sano will be an all hand-out race?
James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#157 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 02:55 PM

Ask the B0D if it was legal to send in unsealed motors...


I believe it was in the beginning.
 
The problem is, a motor refurbisher could blueprint a motor, seal it, and then send it to another motor refurbisher to get their seal put on it. It's not illegal for a motor refurbisher to blueprint motors.

Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#158 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:02 PM

What's the difference Pappy? A racer with the proper tools versus a refurber?
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#159 Fast Freddie

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:21 PM

Wow!!!  All those years of fighting for what I knew was happening and being told to go race elsewhere has finally come to the truth. Maybe the next time someone tries to make a difference by exposing a obvious problem, even though they don't race RETRO, the members of the BoD and others won't be so quick to dismiss them. I doubt it though. Wow!!!, wow!!! Thank all of you for finally admitting what I knew all along.
 
"No, you are not allowed to blueprint your motor before sending it in for refurbishing, it must remain sealed" I was told that by several prominent Retro East racers at the first Retro race at Mimi's The Track in Gaithersburg, MD. 
 
Now you know why I kept pushing for change and no, I don't race RETRO because no one would listen.


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#160 Rick

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:26 PM

Debating back and forth about what has past isn't going to change anyones personal position about motors. It is what it is, now. Doesn't matter the reasoning for it. "They" feel the playing field has been leveled or leveler?? Is it? Will it be? That is anybody's guess.

 

Since we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, complete it and make it hand out motors at all IRRA Premier Events. That will save the racers a lot of money in the long haul! There was one racer there that I am aware of that had 80 FK motors in his box!! As I have always stated, racers vote with their entry dollars. Will this change help, hinder, or have no bearing on numbers????...


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#161 Fast Freddie

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:44 PM

Don't ever forget the past or you will be doomed to repeat it.


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#162 RodneyZ

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:00 PM

I'm with Swiss and Rick: hand-out motors on all races.


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#163 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:24 PM

What's the difference Pappy? A racer with the proper tools versus a refurber?


Big difference, a racer blueprinting a motor is illegal and he's cheating. An approved motor refurbisher blueprinting a motor is not cheating (there's no rule against it), it's just not in the spirit of Retro racing.
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Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#164 Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:31 PM

Whatever, Greg, you finally got your wish of an all FK organization. Hope it works out for you.

 
I believe it will. Don't forget I only have one vote our of five. And I can assure you the other four BoD members don't vote just to accommodate me.
 

Apples to oranges, Greg, using slot cars in this scenario comparing it to a multinational is really over the top even for you. The main thrust of this article is to simplify, right? Taken to its logical conclusion, we run JK kits built as torsion cars, Lotus 40 bodies with no spoilers, straight pinions because those angled things are too hard to get meshed correctly, one tire choice, and get rid of those controllers with all those knobs and get a Parma Turbo controller with the pink resistor.
...
I usually don't get involved in these worthless discussions and I apologize for this one, let me just say the continued repeating of the idea if you don't like the rules don't race is not helping the tone of this discussion.

 
Let's take it even further, Bill. Let's furnish the cars and controllers so all people have to do is show up and race. Hmmm, I seem to remember a certain OH company did that years ago and it was pretty successful.

The effects of simplification versus complexity work in just about any field, Bill, in my experience. Look at the problems McDonalds has had as their menu got more and more complicated.
 
And one more point: I've made no statement in this thread along the lines of "if you don't like the rules don't race." If you feel otherwise, tell me the post number where I said it.
 

Gee, Greg... that informative paragraph is a bit contradictory don't you think? Kinda like being pregnant... either you are or you ain't.

 
Rusty, if you actually own a dictionary, you might find it useful to look up the definitions of "discussion" and "decision." They're not the same...
 

Good God, let's hope he isn't pregnant.


Too late, Bill. I've already reproduced...

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#165 The Number of

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:40 PM

The motto of "don't like the rules, don't race" was not pointed at you. It was the other times in the thread it was repeated.
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#166 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:41 PM

Big difference, a racer blueprinting a motor is illegal and he's cheating. An approved motor refurbisher blueprinting a motor is not cheating (there's no rule against it), it's just not in the spirit of Retro racing.


It was allowed for racers to send in unsealed motors to be checked over and sealed.

What do you say about that?
James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#167 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:44 PM

Greg,

Your fellow BoD member keeps referencing a post Ralph Thorne made on Facebook. I'm assuming that's the post Bill is referring to.
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#168 Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:47 PM

That's fine.

 

Ralph isn't on the IRRA® BoD so why should it be pilloried for what someone else said?


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#169 raisin27

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:49 PM

James,

That is my biggest beef with the Puppy Dogs. You're right, it was allowed at one time to send in your unsealed motors to be sealed. It has not been allowed since I have been racing though. This puts me at a big disadvantage because while I cannot "blueprint" a motor then send it in and I still have to race against motors that have been.
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#170 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:56 PM

I'm not saying it was right or wrong, just trying to get people to understand that it was legal to do.

With that being said, will someone show me where a PD was illegally tampered with?
James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#171 Wizard16

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:04 PM

Hand-outs seem pretty interesting to me. Will save a bunch on trying to find a rocket.

While personally I would like hand-out tires I don't think it would be fair to those who can set up their chassis with tires. I'm still behind on tire recognition but that's on me. If we have hand-out motors, chassis built by pros, and hand-out tires we're pretty close to RTR cars which I don't think is the original intention.

After reading all the exchanges about the PD I withdraw my previous disagreement. Well done, IRRA®.


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#172 MSwiss

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:05 PM

I quoted Ralph. I don't have time to look it up.

His point was it's not like it's been the first rule change ever in slot racing, which is my point.

The other part, IIRC, "Either race or not race", doesn't seem inflammatory to me.

We have racing tonight. You guys continue the argument without me.


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#173 Rick

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:07 PM

The biggest perk in being permitted to send in unsealed motors is a very simple one, Yes, everyone assumed they were being cheated up and "blueprinted." I have been involved since day one with this Retro thang. The perk was not to throw good money after bad, and by that I mean, I could race a motor and if it was a turd, I could open it and read the arm. If it read .615, all the refurbing on the planet is not going to make a clean side of the turd. Request or buy another arm to have installed. Period! Why send a motor in and spend $20 on it to get back still a turd?

 

As far as blueprinting, just about every set-up I ever checked was within what I would consider matched and not be worth the time and effort to spend the extra time on them. Being able to glue them in well was a perk, as I had several drops magnets and several spin endbell bushings. No performance increase, just a reliability feature. Another nice feature was to be able to race a PD motor for an entire season and then send it in and have it reconditioned for next year. Some years the motor that was installed in Sept was left in, until April... Going 3,800 laps in an enduro is pretty nice, too.

 

PS to Freddy: So true about the past, but slot car racing has ignored the past for 50 years and keeps looking for a different result doing the same thing.   :dash2:  :laugh2:  :good: Welcome to try #2016.


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#174 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:29 PM

James, I say the following...

 

If I recall correctly, there was a point in time when many complaints were made about the fragility of Pro Slot seals. Seems that they came off pretty easily (which they did) and made otherwise good motors ineligible for competition. The fix (no pun intended) was for the injured parties to send their motors to their chosen refurber to have them checked and, if they were within spec, resealed. So, in an effort to be fair to those (like me) with bad seals, the keys to the castle were handed over to barbarians at the gates. The situation was a perfect set-up for anyone who wanted to blueprint a motor and get it legalized.  

 

When this became known (or evident) was when the argument started.

 

Somebody correct me if my memory is faulty on that.


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#175 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:29 PM

"Let's give 'em something to talk about." 

 

Your turn, guys. 


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#176 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:31 PM

Golly!  I took a few minutes to eat dinner with my wife and then finished my post. Now I see I was a bit late on the button. Sorry!


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#177 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:39 PM

I see that we've reached that inevitable point at which some are tossing out things contrary to fact. If I wanted to see that, I'd watch Fox News.

 

Hasta luego, mis compadres.


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#178 Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 05:45 PM

I took a few minutes to eat dinner with my wife and then finished my post. Now I see I was a bit late on the button. Sorry!


Pete, you gotta quit allowing unimportant stuff to get in the way of slot racing, you know. Some enthusiast you are...

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#179 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 06:09 PM

With that being said, will someone show me where a PD was illegally tampered with?


I wonder how many of them were legally tampered with.
 
A fairly well-known Retro racer asked a very well-known motor refurbisher/racer a question. He said he had thirty Puppy Dog motors but none of them were exceptional, the best of them was only average, what does he have to do to get an exceptional motor. The answer was, "Buy thirty more."
 
To me this is bullsh!t. Funny how some guys always have exceptional motors. I know of a motor refurbisher/racer who sent a motor to another well-known racer in Chicago that was such a bullet people were talking about it. If exceptional motors are so hard to come by why did he just give one away unless he knew he could just build himself another one?
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Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
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#180 Fast Freddie

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 07:47 PM

Rick,

 

We all know what Sigmund said about doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. It's insanity!!! 

 

I'd love to come and play in RETRO for 2016, I just can't afford the 80 motors it takes to make the top eight. I made the top eight at the 2015 Gaithersburg 1100 and only had four PSFK motors to choose from. What luck I have.


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#181 pops

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 07:55 PM

Other than the Puppy Dog motor what else has the perception of cheating attached to it in Retro racing?


I remember about a year or so back, a certain person was not allowed at IRRA® races for tampering with RH motors. He has since been forgiven. Don't know how that worked?


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#182 Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:04 PM

I remember about a year or so back, a certain person was not allowed at IRRA® races for tampering with RH motors.


It was not a Hawk Retro but a Falcon 7. That racer served a suspension and is currently an IRRA® racer in very good standing.

 

If you speak to him, I believe he will tell you he was treated as fairly as was possible in an unfortunate situation that was unhappy for all parties. If that's not the case, please let me know.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I heard you ran the Buckeye Retro Series race at MMW this past weekend. How did that go?


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#183 pops

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:29 PM

Other than Ross, Willy, Greg, and Bud. The Michigan gang had a race up there also. A few locals were ill. That about covers most of who would have been there.

We had a good time. Wasn't there 14 hours, so I would say it was a good day.
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#184 Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:33 PM

Nice to hear.


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#185 Mike Patterson

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:04 PM

All this B&M isn't going to change anything. I'm still going to have to buy some more Chinese crap that I don't want. But, if crap is the only thing we're allowed to race, OK. I won't like it though, and will will probably sulk for a couple of years.

 

I think eveyone has said their piece. If not, start a new thread.

 

Lock it up, Greg.


We all need to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.


#186 Mad Mexican

Mad Mexican

    Safer Barrier Tester!

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:41 PM

That's all folks!

 


  • Cheater and slotcarone like this
Javier Zavala
In loving memory of my mother Francisca Escalante Zavala
March 24, 1927 - April 5, 2011
Vaya Con Dios

#187 Cheater

Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:10 PM

All this B&M isn't going to change anything.


Is that a typo? Surely you meant S&M... LOL.
 

Lock it up, Greg.


Agreed. You started the thread, so you get get the call!

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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