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Moratorium on Ti22 body submissions


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#51 Cap Henry

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 03:27 PM

So, Mike, when do we get to see the next Chicagoland body? LOL.


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#52 MSwiss

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 03:29 PM

You guys may have inspired me.


Mike Swiss
 
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#53 Cap Henry

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 03:35 PM

I've got pictures and model names LOL.


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#54 John Streisguth

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 04:10 PM

The "modeling" aspect of Retro is overwhelmed by the "racing" aspect, James. Don't think that's ever gonna change and, as the late Larry Shepard always said, the competition aspect of slot racing is probably its fatal gene.

Being the heretic that I am, I come at the issue from a different direction.

The IRRA® Approved Body List contains 147 bodies for six classes and that's too many IMO. While some may feel that there are advantages to having a huge body list (just what are they, I might ask?), does it make much sense to have (now) three motors on the Approved Motor List and so many bodies on the body list?

The dedicated racer is going to test a lot of bodies, if he has the ability to do so, and while that will benefit those selling the bodies he's acquiring, it cannot be argued that it's going to cost the racer more money and more testing time. And make no mistake, time and money are the key factors largely determining who is able to participate in this hobby.

In comparing slots to many other hobbies, I am struck by how focused the slot car hobby is on the mechanisms we use to practice it. In many other competitive activities, the focus is more on the actual competition, and not not so much on the equipment: think baseball, bowling, golf, etc. In such sports, the "tools" are much more tightly controlled and I believe the competition benefits as a result.

Still feel simplification is a better way to go. How restrictive would it really be, for both racers and trackowners, to have just ten bodies approved for each class, with all of us knowing that only a couple of them are likely to be actively raced?

 

And if you raced like NAMRA did back in the day where the cars had to be to scale, everyone would run the longest, lowest, widest real car.  

 

And don't kid yourself about sports not being dependent on the "tools"... in some cases, the tools are the players themselves. Ever hear of steroids? In other cases the equipment has indeed evolved. I doubt you would see a pro playng the Masters with 30 year old clubs.  In competition, everything and anything that will give you an edge will be utilized, and sometimes the "line" gets crossed.


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#55 jimht

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 04:10 PM

The only ones that likely would not appreciate the simplification process are the manufacturers that get cut out. Remember when Rudy complained so vociferously about his Slick 7 stuff not being allowed. Eventually some of it was.....and now he's bailed on much of it. That's just one example but there are others.

 

This comment would make good sense if the manufacturers hadn't been the ones that caused the body proliferation in the first place. For them it's just the same as the supermarket; the more shelf space their products occupy, the more sales they get.
 
As Cheater says, we place more emphasis on the equipment than we should. Reducing the number of bodies is no different than limiting motors. It serves to allow more time and money for chassis and tuning.
 
Entries will and have increased in all sorts of slot races when the goals and equipment are simple.
 
I'm not necessarily saying the body field should be culled arbitrarily, but to drop bodies every other year that haven't been used much at the big events would be sensible. 


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#56 John Streisguth

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 04:15 PM

I podiumed at Port Jeff a few years ago with a Kirby style body, well after the 408L and JK bodies were available and prevalent. So I'll argue against those bodies being better than a Kirby style body, at least on a very high-speed King.
"Whatever..."

#57 tonyp

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 04:16 PM

NAMRA used real tire track dimensions, so you had to run the widest real car to have a raceable track.


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#58 Noose

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 04:24 PM

The IRRA® is not just about big events. The body list is not there for big events.

The mission statement is clear. So if a group of folks want to run races using the rules and run any of the allowed bodies, all the power to them.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#59 Tim Neja

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 04:43 PM

It would be better for the manufacturers to have less SKUs to worry about pulling and stocking!! There's a lot of dead inventory in your body list! 98% of the bodies used are in 10% of the body SKU's! So if you did cull your body list to eliminate inventory – the manufacturers would be helped, not hindered. This would work down to the slot tracks, too! They don't need to invest in inventory that is not going to turn in the next few months. 

 

I'm a manufacturer in a different industry – it's not helpful to have slow moving SKUs! 

 

FWIW.


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#60 Noose

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 04:54 PM

Tim, they don't now. Most only carry what sells and of course if they can get it/them.

No different than tires. Raceways carry what is used a their raceway or series.


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#61 jimht

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 05:42 PM

Neither the raceways nor the series bother carrying/using most of the bodies (because they have no use for them in the racing)?
 
So your justification for legalizing so many bodies is simply that someone somewhere sometime might use one?   :laugh2:
 
Following that logic, it seems more bodies should be solicited and approved as soon as possible, especially Ti22 variations because they are so popular.  ^_^ 


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#62 JimF

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 05:43 PM

This comment would make good sense if the manufacturers hadn't been the ones that caused the body proliferation in the first place.

For them it's just the same as the supermarket; the more shelf space their products occupy, the more sales they get.

 

As Cheater says, we place more emphasis on the equipment than we should.

Reducing the number of bodies is no different than limiting motors. It serves to allow more time and money for chassis and tuning.

 

Entries will and have increased in all sorts of slot races when the goals and equipment are simple.

 

I'm not necessarily saying the body field should be culled arbitrarily, but to drop bodies every other year that haven't been used much at the big events would be sensible. 

 

Hence the reason that I said they would NOT appreciate limiting the offerings.


Jim Fowler

#63 jimht

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 05:48 PM

Hence the reason that I said they would NOT appreciate limiting the offerings.

 

I get that, Jim, but I interpreted your comment as saying that because they would be upset, simplification should not occur.


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#64 JimF

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 05:58 PM

I podiumed at Port Jeff a few years ago with a Kirby style body, well after the 408L and JK bodies were available and prevalent.  So I'll argue against those bodies being better than a Kirby style body, at least on a very high speed king

 

You podiumed in a race a few years ago with a Kirby vs. the others.........(what?.......once?). Heck, in college, I hit a 70' foot shot to end the half in a basketball game. Not sure that anyone would view either isolated instance as evidence of those being the norm.


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#65 JimF

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 06:02 PM

Most guys aren't looking for hard.

They are looking for easy.

As someone who puts slower motors in some of your classes, you should realize this.


IOW, swoopy bodies level the playing field just like slower motors.

 

Yep... that's a good analogy.


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#66 Noose

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 06:10 PM

Neither the Raceways nor the Series bother carrying/using  most of the bodies (because they have no use for them in the racing)?
 
So your justification for legalizing so many bodies is simply that someone somewhere sometime might use one? 
  :laugh2:
Following that logic, it seems more bodies should be solicited and approved as soon as possible, especially Ti22 variations because they are so popular.
^_^ 

 

Yes, there are some that won't use a certain manufacturer or a raceway won't buy from some.

Guys like Retro because they can use a body like they did in the past.

Do you have IRRA® races at your raceway?

Jim Fowler: NorCal runs by their own rules right?

So why the interest in what we do?

As for the Kirby long comment, that is "THE" body in SCRRA, is it not, and demand has outpaced supply. So a guy comments that he had success with one in the past out here. Great.

No one has said squat for years about the list. It was trimmed down a couple of years ago.

We just felt that were more than enough Ti22s around and there was not a need for more.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#67 John Streisguth

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 07:01 PM

You podiumed in a race a few years ago with a Kirby vs the others...(what?... once?). Heck, in college, I hit a 70' foot shot to end the half in a basketball game. Not sure that anyone would view either isolated instance as evidence of those being the norm.

 
I'm offering that up as a real-world race experience. I'm not the only one who was running that body successfully against ones that you deem to be "too aero enhanced." No need to get snarky.
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#68 jimht

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 08:02 PM

Lighten up, Noose.
 
Why is it that the "Do you do this that or the other in your Raceway?" MYOB card gets played in a discussion like this? 
 
Don't like what I say?... ignore the green type.  :P
 
Besides, the IRRA has been claiming for years it's the greatest thing for slot car racing since the anglewinder... and regularly proceeds to make its pronouncements to the world so we can all appreciate its beneficence.
 
Well, interpreting my comments as unwanted criticism is not necessary, is it?
 
I'm commenting because as long as the IRRA® presents itself (as an example of whatever) for us all to pay homage to it will get attention and isn't that the point?
 
The Ti22 body thing is an example of the nature of the organization...
 
"Hear ye, Hear ye: we have decided to do this and  ye are hereby informed"... you don't want comments, lock it up.  :shout:  


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#69 Samiam

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 08:06 PM

Jim,

 

Have a Snickers.  :laugh2:


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Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#70 Half Fast

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 08:20 PM

Hmm lets see:

 

The IRRA® BoD set outs its position and gets mostly support from guys who actually race with them, but gets a lot of shade from people who don't.

 

If you were the BoD who would you listen to? :rolleyes:

 

Cheers


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#71 Samiam

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 08:34 PM

Reminds me of a SNL skit: "Point / Counterpoint."

 

If the IRRA announced it was looking for more Ti22s, Jim would have argued against that.

 

Some people just ain't happy unless they are telling someone else they're wrong.


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#72 Dennis David

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 09:20 PM

Jim Fowler: NorCal runs by their own rules right? 

So why the interest in what we do? 

 
I was under the impression that the NorCal Retro rules are the same as IRRA® rules except for using the Mini Brute in F1 and maybe a couple of other small instances. Jim will correct me if I'm wrong.


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#73 Noose

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 09:33 PM

NorCal runs their own rules. Yes, the Mini Brute is an allowed motor but bodies are very restricted like SoCal.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#74 MSwiss

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 09:35 PM

Yes, closer to SoCal than ours.

IIRC, A-arm F1 chassis are allowed.


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#75 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:09 PM

So why the interest in what we do?

 

I find this an interesting quote. Don't some of you IRRA® guys butt in to our SCRRA discussions? And your interest is?


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#76 Mike Patterson

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:13 PM

I, too, would like to see some different bodies used besides the Ti22 in Can-Am. Personally, I like the Parma Lola T163. I used to run the O/S 408L Ti22 long, but I think the Lola plants the car better, at least with an IRRA™ legal spoiler. YMMV.

 

I would definitely like to see some different GTC bodies. I know the Parma Lola is the most popular, but to me the proportions are all wrong. The cockpit and engine intake are pushed too far to the rear. The JK Lola has better proportions, but looks pretty generic otherwise.


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#77 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:22 PM

Mike,

 

I also like the Parma Lola T163. Just can't use it here. Great body to run, but, that's the way it is. Ti22s rule the roost, and that's that.


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#78 Mark Wampler

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:46 PM

Bryan has solved the issue somewhat in their monthly races by allowing side rib attachments. I ran last Flat track race and I think there was some limited leveling of the field with a Lola T160 and extra side dams but not over a Kirby Ti. I ran a T/S Ti long and posted second fastest. Even Dennis had an Oldsmobile with side ribs.

 

It makes good use of those non-competitive bodies gathering dust. Maybe you guys back East should try it out.  :)


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#79 Mark Wampler

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:48 PM

I also like the Parma Lola T163. Just can't use it here. Great body to run, but, that's the way it is. Ti22s rule the roost, and that's that.

 
Think you could park a 4-1/2" chassis underneath. They're long and lanky.
You can quote me.

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#80 NJ Racer

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 08:00 AM

I, too, would like to see some different bodies used besides the Ti22 in Can-Am. Personally, I like the Parma Lola T163. I used to run the O/S 408L Ti22 long, but I think the Lola plants the car better, at least with an IRRA™ legal spoiler. YMMV.
 
I would definitely like to see some different GTC bodies. I know the Parma Lola is the most popular, but to me the proportions are all wrong. The cockpit and engine intake are pushed too far to the rear. The JK Lola has better proportions, but looks pretty generic otherwise.


Ah, the memories... I think there are enough to choose from on the IRRA® approved body list.


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#81 Cheater

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 08:21 AM

Besides, the IRRA has been claiming for years it's the greatest thing for slot car racing since the anglewinder... and regularly proceeds to make its pronouncements to the world so we can all appreciate its beneficence.


This comment seems to me to be pretty mean-spirited, Jim.

IRRA® was founded on a number of principles, among them: a stable, well-crafted rule set, superior communication both up and down, full recognition and archiving of racers' accomplishments, complete documentation of the Premier Event races, and the creation of as level a playing field as possible, all factors that most organizations ignored for roughly forty years.
 
Do you believe we should have kept quiet about the results we've observed, i.e. some of the closest racing and largest fields seen in decades? And I can't recall that IRRA® has often, if ever, tooted its own horn in advance of the stellar results achieved or has ever claimed "it's the greatest thing for slot racing since the anglewinder." Yes, some of the racers have made similar statements, but not the IRRA®.
 
Have we hit some bumps in the road? Of course, but the most frustrating part for me has been the incredible number of "nattering nabobs of negativism" who insist we have to change what IRRA® has created simply because they demand we do so.


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#82 Cheater

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 08:38 AM

Even Dennis had an Oldsmobile with side ribs.


If you mean Samson, now, that is shocking! Foamy, not so much... LOL!
 

It makes good use of those non-competitive bodies gathering dust. Maybe you guys back East should try it out.  :)


Making use of non-competitive bodies is not high on my priority list of IRRA® goals. As I've said, anything that would demonstrably generate better and more competitive racing under IRRA® rules than we're seeing now, I'd be interested in. Don't feel your suggestion meets that qualification.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#83 MSwiss

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 09:29 AM

It makes good use of those non-competitive bodies gathering dust. Maybe you guys back East should try it out.  :)

 

I just looked at the BP race report from last Saturday and everyone ran Ti22s.

Apparently using up "dusty" $6 bodies isn't a super-big priority for the BP King racers.


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#84 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 09:53 AM

Personally, I really don't get the big uproar here about the bodies? I just try to support slot car racing in general.

 

I come from a long background of 1:1 circle track racing. So, when we were ready to go racing, we looked at the rules for where we were going and adapted the car to the tracks/series rule package. I carry the same attitude with slot cars. If I run an IRRA® event, I adapt to those rules the best I can and go racing. If I run at my local track, I adapt to Tracy's kinda weird rules and go racing! When I make it to the west coast, I will adapt to SCRRA rules and go racing!

 

My time is better spent preparing for the rules presented rather than trying to get some one to change the rules for me. It's really just that simple.


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#85 Mark Wampler

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 09:58 AM

I just looked at the BP race report from last Saturday and everyone ran Ti22s.

Apparently using up "dusty" $6 bodies isn't a super-big priority for the BP King racers.

 
I believe I said the last "Flat track" race. Last Saturday's race was on the King track.

 

The locals at BP have no problem with extra ribs on their monthly race cars. It's laid back and it's cool. More fun, less serious. Works for them. Works for me once in a while when I can make the 3-1/2 hour trip.


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#86 MSwiss

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 10:06 AM

If using up those dusty bodies is so important, why didn't any of the King racers take advantage of it?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#87 Jay Guard

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 10:07 AM

Personally, I really don't get the big uproar here about the bodies? I just try to support slot car racing in general.

 

I come from a long background of 1:1 circle track racing. So, when we were ready to go racing, we looked at the rules for where we were going and adapted the car to the tracks/series rule package. I carry the same attitude with slot cars. If I run an IRRA® event, I adapt to those rules the best I can and go racing. If I run at my local track, I adapt to Tracy's kinda weird rules and go racing! When I make it to the west coast, I will adapt to SCRRA rules and go racing!

 

My time is better spent preparing for the rules presented rather than trying to get some one to change the rules for me. It's really just that simple.

 

Well said, Andrew. I wish a lot more racers took that attitude, especially in the short term.  

 

Long term I think there's always room for improvements and to try to get slot racing groups to come together a bit more for the good of the hobby but IMO all of this drama about the motor or body rules really serves no constructive purpose.


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#88 Cheater

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 10:07 AM

Andrew,

 

I blame the USRA. For 40+ years, that organization has promoted the idea that the racers have a God-given right (or maybe it's in the Constitution) to have significant input in the rule set and long-time slot racers have seemingly have absorbed that mindset into their DNA.

 

The problem is that having rules sets for each track, or for each small regional series, doesn't IMO generate the benefits that accrue to the overall hobby as compared to a true national rule set almost everyone uses. There's plenty of evidence for this claim in both slot racing and 1:1 racing, yet so many people have blinders on so they can't or won't see it.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#89 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 10:43 AM

If using up those dusty bodies is so important, why didn't any of the King racers take advantage of it?

 

Mike,

 

We presently have pretty good supply of various long Ti22s at BPR and it looks like the shortages we experienced in the past won't happen any time soon. The SCRRA will continue to allow the addition of air dams on certain bodies for the monthly races and several racers have experimented with them but most people think it's a good idea but just don't want to tinker with other bodies as long as they can get the TIs.

 

It pretty much is a complete non-issue. :)


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#90 John Streisguth

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 10:58 AM

As is the latest IRRA® announcement... :)


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"Whatever..."

#91 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 11:17 AM

Greg,

 

I see your point and understand it. Makes sense that blinders are on. I may be kind of one of those people cause I just want to race.


Andrew Ford

#92 Cheater

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 11:23 AM

And you are in the majority, without a doubt.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#93 Mark Wampler

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 11:37 AM

I made a few observations this last visit to BP.  The alternate use of side dams seem to work very well on the Flat Track in bringing  up those Honkers, and Lolas, etc  to a similar performance level of the TI’s.  On the King Track, everything is  religiously light especially the bodies. Adding  side ribs means adding weight.  Why do that when there are TI’s readily available?  I had already planned to pick up some TI bodies, but upon  inspecting the O/S versions, immediately saw they were in the 7 thou range.  Bill V and I were looking them over at the time when I made a comment at which point was reminded of the 5.5 gram body rule.  Very wise move for the major events.  Thus the 10 thou rule has been dealt with effectively. Its all working out there.  The major races are well attended by people all over the country.


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#94 Danny Zona

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 11:40 AM

Just go and race.

Let us argue about Kelly tires, motors, and lightened Parma gears.
Ha-ha... Just a joke.

It truly isn't a big deal, IMO.


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Test, test, test and go test some more. You're never fast enough!!!

#95 Mike Patterson

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 09:07 PM

I also like the Parma Lola T163. Just can't use it here. Great body to run, but, that's the way it is. Ti22s rule the roost, and that's that.

 

Think you could park a 4-1/2" chassis underneath. They're long and lanky.

 
Tom, why aren't you allowed to use it? It's no more ridiculous than most of the Tis, and has a more proportioned look to it, IMO. I think the rounded fenders have a lot to do with it. The Ti is pretty angular.
 
Mark: doubtful. If you used a 3/4" guide lead, or less, maybe.

We all need to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.


#96 Mark Wampler

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 09:52 PM

Mark: doubtful. If you used a 3/4" guide lead, or less, maybe.

 
That's fairly accurate. A lot of my cars have between a .7 to .8" guide lead.
You can quote me.

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#97 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 08:38 AM

Mike P,

Was told the Lola T163 has too much downforce. So, out it went. Great body to use, but no more.

As I don't race on the King track, it isn't a big deal to me. But when I did, everyone ran the Ti22 as they do now.
Tom Eatherly

#98 Cap Henry

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 11:08 AM

I'd like to see a McLaren Can-Am, a McLaren GT coupe, a Ferrari P4, and a Ferrari F1 or any new F1.

Variety is cool.
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#99 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 12:56 PM

Could someone please post a link or pix of these BP modified bodies?

 

Thx...


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#100 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 01:16 PM

Could someone please post a link or pix of these BP modified bodies?

 

Thx...

   WJ,

       Not a lot of pictures but this Lola, with the added side dams, won last time out on the BPR Flat track. It seems the TI22 body availability problem is a thing of the past so not many racers are playing with the side dams but the few who are like it as it allows them a bit of experimentation. We allow it only for the monthly races and not for our 4 major events.

     As you can see, the dams are hardly noticeable and like I said the entire thing is a non issue.

 

DSC06161.JPG


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