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Please define guide lead


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#1 gc4895

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 02:50 PM

As I understand it, "guide lead" is defined as the distance between the center of the front axle and the center of the guide hole.  Is this correct? 

 

Further, this distance, generally speaking, determines how "quickly" the car responds to turns.  The shorter the guide lead, the quicker the turn.  Correct?  Is this also a question of faster vs. more stable in terms of car performance?

 

Is there a "standard" guide lead?  I believe that most guide lead lengths are between 1.0" and 0.9" though I have seen them as short as 0.85".

 

When looking at kits where the front bracket has uprights for the front axle and the guide hole is coined or established, the guide lead is essentially established when the bracket was made.  However, I don't see any measurement given by the manufacturers of the kit in terms of what guide lead is built in.  Isn't this a key variable for the consumer to know when looking at kits to build or am I over-emphasizing the impact of this?

 

The other key parameter is wheelbase: distance from center of the rear axle to center of the front axle.  This is always variable by the builder and seems to run within an 1/8th of an inch on either side of 4 inches for F1 or CanAm.  Common wisdom seems to be that longer is more forgiving vs. shorter is "quicker".  Does this sound correct?

 

The reason for my questions is that I'm trying to make choices in terms of kits, and then how to correctly set up the kits to get the results I'm expecting.  Understanding these dimensional relationships seems fundamental. 

 

Thanks! (sorry if I ask too many questions!)


Mark Bauer




#2 MSwiss

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 02:55 PM

Mark,

All the above is correct.

Kits with coined guide tongues are made with the best compromise dimension.

 

It can always be changed by cutting off the existing one and adding a separate one, but probably not necessary until you really start fine tuning your cars.

 

Will get to your E-mail tonight.


Mike Swiss
 
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#3 Tim Neja

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 04:02 PM

All good questions, and not a definitive answer. I've got guide leads on Can Am cars from .500 to  1.00. :shok:  And wheelbases from 4.30 to 3.50!  There's a lot of variability for different designs depending on how "soft" or stiff the overall chassis is! The funny thing is--they ALL seem to work.  They drive a bit differently and are better on different parts of the track!  

Your mileage may vary!!   :victory:


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#4 Mark Wampler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 04:28 PM

The way I measure is when I use a caliper.  With the guide out, I measure the distance between the rear part of the front axle to the  rear section of the guide hole.


You can quote me.

-Mark

#5 MSwiss

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 04:42 PM

That's not the guide lead.

 

PS-you can measure the wheelbase "that way", if both axle sizes are the same.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#6 Mark Wampler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 04:59 PM

You may have your own dictionary, on that.  Wheelbase and guide lead are separate measurements.  Combine them  and you have the basic  length of the chassis.  Its according to one's viewpoint.


You can quote me.

-Mark

#7 MSwiss

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 05:07 PM

Everyone (but you) defines guide lead, centerline to centerline.

 

If anyone else measures it like you, they are free to correct me.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#8 Mark Wampler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 05:30 PM

Well you do your measurements and I'll do mine.   Fair enough?  To the gentleman posting,  It much easier to do it my way.  :)


You can quote me.

-Mark

#9 MSwiss

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 05:36 PM

But then when he asks someone who does it the most common/correct way, and gets a dimension, it will be off by 3/32".

 

He was looking for the industry standard, not your standard.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#10 Mark Wampler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:31 PM

Well, let's see the difference between the center of the front axle and the center of the guide is minuscule.  Hardly enough to throw off intelligent people.  So I measure from  back to back and split the difference.   Let's agree that it makes so LITTLE  difference. (that won't happen)  Again, my way of measuring with the caliper is much faster and a good pair of eye balls will go a long way.


You can quote me.

-Mark

#11 MSwiss

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 06:53 PM

Wow.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#12 Tim Neja

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 08:16 PM

It's really NOT GOOD to measure "uniquely"!! That makes comparison across the country very difficult.  Guide lead is "center to center"!  And wheelbase is center to center on the axles.  Simple truth! 


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#13 Mark Wampler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 08:37 PM

Are you really sure you're measuring center to center?    Use a caliper?   You have to eye ball it and you're going to be off.    A simple mathematical formula would make up the difference between the 3/32 center axle and 7/32 center of the guide.    Use the caliper back to back then use the formula.  You would then find the EXACT measurement.  I make my own guide tongues and have so for nearly 10 years.  Think I know a little about guide lead.


You can quote me.

-Mark

#14 MSwiss

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 08:44 PM

The guide post(and the hole for it) is approx. 3/16" in dia., not 7/32".

 

I don't see the correlation to you making your own guide tongues and you being able to grasp 99.9% of all slot racers use the center lines to define AND SUCCESSFULLY COMPARE guide leads with other racers.


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Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#15 JimF

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 08:52 PM

I think Mr. Bauer probably has his answer by now. BTW.....I got to see and test the car he posted about (his first build in 40 ish years) very darned nice and will be among the 4-5 best cars at our next race if he chooses to come and run.


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#16 Mark Wampler

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:00 PM

MY Point is that your eye balls are not accurate as a measuring instrument, period.  The drill bit I use is 7/32 for the guide hole.  So is it the guide hole you work from or the shaft of the guide?.  Let's flip a coin.  If you have a 1/16 front axle, you can also apply the appropriate mathematical formula after to take a caliper measurement and find the EXACT guide lead.  Wasting my keyboard here. (commented deleted-violation of TOU)


You can quote me.

-Mark

#17 gc4895

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:05 PM

Thanks, guys. 

 

I've got my answer.  It's interesting how the measured relationships are a start but, as noted, the stiffness and other factors all come into play determining the actual performance or "driveability."

 

It's sort of like football. You can look at all the statistics and come up with predictions but you still have to play the game. All the best to those eyeballing or caliper measuring. We are all just trying to go a little faster. 

 

And Jim, thanks so much for the help on Sunday. Your experience and judgment are wonderful when it comes to making cars perform. 


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Mark Bauer

#18 MSwiss

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:17 PM

Mark B (or any other racers), please ignore Mark W's "7/32" drill bit for the guide hole" advice.

 

The correct dimension is .189"-190", not 7/32"/.21875".


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#19 Rapid Rick

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:16 PM

Glad to read this post. I was just trying to learn what my car from 1983 had for a measurement so I can tell it, along with pictures, in a future post of my Olympiad Group 20 winning car... thanks, Mike.

Oh yes... thanks for being such good help and support for my sister Dawn.

 

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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 07:02 PM

My pleasure.

Dawn is cool.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#21 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 11:46 PM

Well, let's see the difference between the center of the front axle and the center of the guide is minuscule. Hardly enough to throw off intelligent people.  So I measure from back to back and split the difference. Let's agree that it makes so little difference. (that won't happen) Again, my way of measuring with the caliper is much faster and a good pair of eyeballs will go a long way.

 

It may be faster but it is totally wrong. LMAO.



#22 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 04:53 PM

Back in the 'dark ages' before independent front wheels or no front wheels at all, the tire scrub of front wheels made a difference. Locating the guide pivot/pin under the axle allowed the axle to rotate with no scrub. Advancing it created some scrub. The homeset cars still have these issues and use harder front tires and coatings to get less scrub. With most of the current commercial rules, the goal is more to get clearance for the 10/32 nut driver in the front axle assembly. On some (hardbody) cars the issue is to get the body to cover the flag and still have the wheels in the right place.

 

The no-wheels crowd like to adjust the guide flag to rear axle dimension and seem to have some impact for wing and scale Eurosport chassis alike.


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#23 Dallas Racer

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 12:13 AM

I just remembered this from my metal fabricating days back in the '70s:

 

If you had 10 holes to drill on a straight line that were a foot apart, you'd make all your measurements off one point. Instead of measuring 1 foot between each hole, you would: From the first hole, measure 1 foot to the second hole, then again starting at from the first hole, measure 2 feet to the third hole, 3 feet from the first hole to the fourth, and so on. You'd measure all 10 holes off the first one. This was to avoid or minimize accumulative error.

 

So if you really wanted to get nit-picky about it, maybe you should make all your measurements off the rear axle or guide hole.

 

On further thought (this dawned on me after I wrote all that crap): Since you only have two measurements, the front axle could be considered the measuring point and you can just continue doing it like you've always done it. :dash2:  :laugh2:


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