21 replies to this topic

[Mark Crowley]

The Proslot counterfeit seals thread got me to wondering about how stringent local tracks are for race tech where this type of thing would even be discovered.  I'm not talking about tech at big events but just weekly/monthly races at your local track.  Is cheating really a problem in slotcar racing or is it just make for an interesting thread?

 

The track where I race just checks for .062" clearance and 3 1/4" width and for us I see no need to change.  Everyone that we race with is very open to helping each other up their "game".  If someone is fast we pick their brain about setup, driving style, glue, etc. In fact more experienced racers are the ones that offer the most help.

 

Whether I place in a race or not, the fun part for me that special heat when I am trying to catch a person (or trying not to be caught) on an adjacent lane running almost identical lap times.  Letting a faster car by or passing a slower car is not what gets my adrenaline pumping.  Perhaps this is why it is called racing and not winning.

 

Mark

 

[NSwanberg]

"Whether I place in a race or not, the fun part for me that special heat when I am trying to catch a person (or trying not to be caught) on an adjacent lane running almost identical lap times.  Letting a faster car by or passing a slower car is not what gets my adrenaline pumping.  Perhaps this is why it is called racing and not winning."

 

I'd rather chase than be chased.

 

I think as our racing is getting a little closer we are getting a little more tight lipped. I did not have much success with the steel cars until I through away all my paradigms away and just started doing what Dave DeCoster does

 

On retro Wednesday at Downriver Speedway, Bob Foster, Rich Attee or myself usually do the tech. For the A group racers we are pretty stringent. You better have .050 clearance, the right spoiler height and track width. We are looking at the PS FK sticker pretty close but some of the racers have had the motors in their cars for so long that much of the sticker is gone. I have taken a clue from Raisin and keep clear finger nail polish in my box and when I buy  new sealed motor I coat the seal with the finger nail polish before I do anything with the motor.

 

When teching you need to know your racers. For the more casual B group that may have a new racer we would let things go with a "Make it right for next week" message. People are not lined up outside the door at any raceway and you do not want to discourage a new racer. This A and B group has served the racers and the owner JB at Downriver Speedway well. We have had this program going now for 2 years and other than a rare midweek holiday conflict we have raced every week that I know of.

[bluecars]

Racers going to race and cheaters going to cheat. In either case It's hard to catch a good one.

[Brinkley47]

Racers going to race and cheaters going to cheat. In either case It's hard to catch a good one.

lol, well said Red.

[Mach9]

Racers going to race and cheaters going to cheat. In either case It's hard to catch a good one.

Many years ago, my boss at the time who was a former NHRA Stock and Super Stock national record holder told me: "There ain't but two kinds of racers, cheaters and LOSERS!" LOL

[Fast Freddie]

It's very easy to catch cheaters.  It just takes desire and perseverance.  You will never catch a cheater if you never hold post race teardowns.  That's not to say someone who finished off the podium isn't cheating, but post race teardowns place an air of doubt into the cheaters mind forcing him/her to think twice before they decide to ruin their reputations.

[old & gray]

What I was concerned about is the "type" of cheater. The guy alters the chassis so he can run smaller tires or runs a hollow axle is being inventive or didn't read the rules.

The guy who runs a hollow axle with plugs in the ends is cheating and trying to conceal what he did. The one that was really scary was the 6 mm bushing which was machined to hold a 5 mm ball bearing on the inside of the can so the tech inspector wouldn't see the substitution. The reason this was scary was the racer didn't have the resources to modify the bushing, someone was deliberately making a cheat for other sale.  

[Mark Crowley]

"but some of the racers have had the motors in their cars for so long that much of the sticker is gone. I have taken a clue from Raisin and keep clear finger nail polish in my box and when I buy  new sealed motor I coat the seal with the finger nail polish before I do anything with the motor.".

That is the reason why I wouldn't think anyone could cheat and reseal a Proslot motor without a counterfeit seal.  I would like to think that one car at one event that had a motor with a counterfeit seal would be a very rare occurrence and not something to worry about.

Mark

[Mark Crowley]

What I was concerned about is the "type" of cheater. The guy alters the chassis so he can run smaller tires or runs a hollow axle is being inventive or didn't read the rules.

The guy who runs a hollow axle with plugs in the ends is cheating and trying to conceal what he did. The one that was really scary was the 6 mm bushing which was machined to hold a 5 mm ball bearing on the inside of the can so the tech inspector wouldn't see the substitution. The reason this was scary was the racer didn't have the resources to modify the bushing, someone was deliberately making a cheat for other sale.  

Holy crap on a stick.  I find it hard to believe people would work that hard to cheat with toy cars.  Surely the odds of people cheating has to be extremely low.  Pushing the rules a little is one thing but counterfeiting seals, machining for bearings, plugs in hollow axles, etc. brings cheating to a masterclass level.  Those people should be able to run at the head of the pack by building legit cars.

Mark

[bluecars]

Mack, I win races and I don't cheat. Anyone can check my stuff at any time. What gets me is the people who do see someone cheating don't want to get involved. To these people I say I hope you get beat every time you race. It's up to everyone to keep this hobby clean. Not just the people tecking cars into races. My 2c.

[Bill from NH]

Bob, I like the 5mm bearing in a 6mm bushing idea. I'll have to try that idea sometime instead of using one of Walt's 6mm bearings. Years ago when we ran unbalanced 16D's, one local racer plugged the balance holes on a S16D arm & heavily coated  it with arm dye. What he forgot was that the 16D arms were a smaller diameter & could be picked out with normal eyesight.

 

Red, we were running Plafit Cheetahs (FK motor that looks similar to a Falcon) in a flexi, during the days before retro was invented. One night in the middle of the race one teenager lost his endbell. Myself & a couple other adult drivers rode this kid for the next six months, but he never opened up another one of his sealed motors. He eventually moved back to Canada.

[Fast Freddie]

The desire to win, for some racers, overrides the desire to cheat.  When racing for no money and not much in the way of prizes the only thing that matters is the recognition and accolades from your fellow racers and others involved in the hobby.  This recognition sometimes leads to sponsorship and maybe even money, especially if you race your own blueprinted/refurbished motors or built chassis.  The desire of most racers to have what wins/works could lead strangers to come calling.  If you have cheated your way to the top and others want to know what your secret is well that won't happen, but they'll do your chassis or motors just like theirs for a price.  The problem is you'll never get the real cheater stuff but something legal and then if you don't podium, it was all because of your driving or race setup.  Only those in the inner most circle will get the genuine product because the cheater knows they won't give him up for "FEAR" of their own exposure.  Not all winners cheat but all cheaters cheat to win and only win.   

[bluecars]

Fred, for those people I say :on_the_quiet:They haven't won anything.  I feel sorry that they don't get to feel the real satisfaction of winning. Doesn't do much for self worth. You can't buy integrity and if you don't have that you are just another dog licking his own situation. Enjoy the taste, you're stuck with it.

[Mark Crowley]

you are just another dog licking his own situation. Enjoy the taste, you're stuck with it.

For some reason everything I eat or drink on race day has the taste of Koford light so I guess I shouldn't complain..

[B.C.]

in keeping with the original post in this topic, I somewhat agree that if a newbie with a small infraction in a local program

is found let them run, but have it fixed by next week. there are usually more than enough locals to help out if the racer is

willing to accept help. that being said, I do take issue with blatant disregard for example, the stock car class in IRRA which

has specific printed rules with pictures of what is legal and what isn't. I have attended retro races under the IRRA banner

which have allowed electric dreams cyclones and jk chargers, bodies being trimmed up past the bottom of the door line

and wheel wells that are trimmed up close to the top of the fenders. looking more like Saturday nite late models than

late 60's nascar stock cars. (I stand corrected if I am incorrect on bodies or rules that may have been updated) sour grapes,no.

but when you lose racers because they have spent the time, money and effort to follow rules, they should be adhered to, or

don't run under the IRRA banner. as I see it IRRA has spent considerable time and effort to put these rules together so that

racers can know what is accepted and what isn't when traveling from track to track. it does no good to let things slide

with the excuse we don't have enough entries, and then expect the next location to let them slide also.

[Mark Crowley]

A good clear set of rules is a very good point.  I think RIR has a decent set of rules but they are limited to no more than 1 letter size page for each class so I doubt details like excess body trimming are covered.  I like to think that simplicity is good and common sense rules are assumed.  If someone wants to  push the limits others will probably also adjust accordingly.

Mark

[Fast Freddie]

As for your first question Mark, no cheating really isn't a problem in our hobby but the perception of cheating is.  What I mean by that is the assumption that a person who most always wins has to be cheating.  That's not true mainly because so many things come into play in a race.  The well prepared racer who took the time to develop the best setup with the best motor doesn't always win or even podium.  So when you see a racer make the podium or win nearly all races he/she enters, including major events where some of the very best in the hobby show up to participate, it causes the smarter racers to pause and take note.  Sometimes it's nothing more than plain dumb luck that they win so much and then again they just might have an "unfair advantage" granted by the rules makers.  It's not cheating just the questionable judgment of those with the power who allow the perception to thrive.  

[John Streisguth]

in keeping with the original post in this topic, I somewhat agree that if a newbie with a small infraction in a local program

is found let them run, but have it fixed by next week. there are usually more than enough locals to help out if the racer is

willing to accept help. that being said, I do take issue with blatant disregard for example, the stock car class in IRRA which

has specific printed rules with pictures of what is legal and what isn't. I have attended retro races under the IRRA banner

which have allowed electric dreams cyclones and jk chargers, bodies being trimmed up past the bottom of the door line

and wheel wells that are trimmed up close to the top of the fenders. looking more like Saturday nite late models than

late 60's nascar stock cars. (I stand corrected if I am incorrect on bodies or rules that may have been updated) sour grapes,no.

but when you lose racers because they have spent the time, money and effort to follow rules, they should be adhered to, or

don't run under the IRRA banner. as I see it IRRA has spent considerable time and effort to put these rules together so that

racers can know what is accepted and what isn't when traveling from track to track. it does no good to let things slide

with the excuse we don't have enough entries, and then expect the next location to let them slide also.

I know some areas have allowed this because they (a) think the cars handle better (b) allow them to run some bodies that don;t work as well as others because of width at the wheelwells.  In these cases it seem like it's "IRRA rules EXCEPT ......"   I agree, don;t call it IRRA, call it retro whatever....

[Arne Saknussem]

Many years ago, my boss at the time who was a former NHRA Stock and Super Stock national record holder told me: "There ain't but two kinds of racers, cheaters and LOSERS!" LOL

 

Interesting outlook.  I hope it was supposed to be a joke.  Otherwise it says a lot about somebody's attitude and about their sport.

 

Frankly, I consider the above remark along with "it ain't cheatin' if you don't get caught" and "if you're not cheating you're not trying hard enough" as snappy lines but total bullsnot.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Greg VanPeenen]

 

Interesting outlook.  I hope it was supposed to be a joke.  Otherwise it says a lot about somebody's attitude and about their sport.

 

Frankly, I consider the above remark along with "it ain't cheatin' if you don't get caught" and "if you're not cheating you're not trying hard enough" as snappy lines but total bullsnot.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Being a former NHRA Stock Eliminator racer and national record holder. That statement was not a joke. It was not often outright cheating. It was taking advantage of every gray area in the rule  book. We ALL looked at it this way. Don't make rules you are not smart enough to enforce.

 

I got many tech inspector jobs through the years in all forms of racing just for that reason. I didn't make rules I couldn't enforce. So stick your bullsnot where the Sun don't shine.

 

I was also taught in the military not to engage in a fair fight if you want to destroy the bad guys. Take every advantage you can.

 

Regards,

Greg VanPeenen.

[Arne Saknussem]

I was also taught in the military not to engage in a fair fight if you want to destroy the bad guys. Take every advantage you can.

 

Regards,

Greg VanPeenen.

 

I very much regret that you've taken my remarks personally, but I think you've lost perspective as far as this conversation goes. We're not engaged in a military action and I don't go to a slot race "to destroy the bad guys."

 

To be clear, what you describe as exploiting the gray areas of a rulebook is not, IMO, cheating.  Counterfeiting a seal for the purpose of disguising work done in contrary to a clear rule is.

[Greg VanPeenen]

Counterfeiting a seal to disguise work done to a so called sealed motor is clearly cheating. Its has been done as soon as motors had seals and some people in the slot racing motor business has been doing it for a living from day one. 

 

Most people knew, but no one has ever done anything about it. That is the true problem.

 

Regards,

Gregory VanPeenen