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#1 Robert BG

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Posted 02 July 2016 - 01:35 PM

I was wondering if anyone has seen this Parma hardware and if so what does it usually run? 

parmamura.jpg
 
It looks really close to the Koford stuff and chances are it is but if it's a little cheaper it would be worth trying out. I've currently got a bunch of motors that I'd like to replace hardware on so I when I saw this I figured I'd ask. Although I'm stuck in West VA so I've had plenty of time to surf the web trying to figure out where to find it with no luck so far.
Robert Fothergill




#2 MSwiss

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Posted 02 July 2016 - 01:43 PM

That's a  Koford motor, probably sold OEM to Parma, probably mostly for RTR (drag) cars.
 
In that pic, it looks like the old, real nice, Cahoza made hardware.
 
Probably 0% chance the hardware is available separate from Parma.

Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#3 Robert BG

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Posted 02 July 2016 - 02:05 PM

Thanks, that is about what I figured but it was worth a shot.
Robert Fothergill

#4 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 12:06 AM

Looks a lot like the Koford M507 gold plated aluminum hoods... Eagle is out/discontinued? Could/should be on someone's parts wall.
 
Is the (?newer) Koford M478 hardware fit the same - says all Koford endbell/offset? 478 not drilled for shunt wire, 507 is drilled... per ERI site.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
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#5 Koford fan

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 12:13 PM

Just a reminder, brass cup for non-shunted and aluminum cup for shunted.

So in this pictures, you should shunt this, otherwice power goes through springs (that why we use insulator on springs).
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Tom Blantern

#6 MSwiss

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 02:03 PM

How is shunting the motor preventing the spring from being hot?

 

The lead wire is attached to the brush hood, which is attached to the spring cup, which has the coil of the spring wrapped around it.

 

Touch your leads to a motor, with shunt wires,  to the "insulated" springs and the motor will certainly run.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#7 Robert BG

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 03:01 PM

I'm with Mike on this,also what people usually neglect to realize is that aluminum conducts electricity better than brass ;)

 

I've always used aluminum cups because they are lighter.Now if they are anodized and insulated its nice for shunted apps but the whole brass over aluminum on the basis of brass being a better conductor is flawed.


Robert Fothergill

#8 Samiam

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 03:16 PM

My theory on this is that electricity will travel the path of least resistance. That being the shunt.


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Sam Levitch
 
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#9 Robert BG

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 05:36 PM

Sam, exactly the problem is my wallet is having a little resistance to almost $20 a crack for the Cahoza stuff. The Koford is a little cheaper but still the amount of motors I want to redo it adds up. When I saw the stuff on a Parma motor it was a long shot but I thought maybe they might sell it a little cheaper. If they were cut how I like then it wouldnt be such a problem but to spend that much just to hack them up is silly for me.

 

It's not a big deal if i don't replace the stuff. It is still straight and works fine but I like my hoods trimmed a certain way and in order to do it it's best to pull them apart and trim them. The problem is they are epoxied on and I'll destroy most of them so I was looking for new stuff.

 

I have a friend that can custom cut copper gaskets, spacer plates, and just about anything else you can imagine. Before I go and spend $200+ on replacing hardware I'm going to look into producing my own. I have access to just about everything I'll need. The only thing I can think of is pressing them one by one might get tedious but we'll see. Chances are I could do enough in one weekend to last me a few years.


Robert Fothergill

#10 MSwiss

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 10:37 PM

My theory on this is that electricity will travel the path of least resistance. That being the shunt.

 

That's why you don't need shunt wires on G12 or lower motors.

There is so much surface area between the hood and brush, adding a shunt wire to lower the resistance of something that is already low enoughjust adds weight.

I remember when BP got their Gerding, the winner in Am 12, without shunts, would regularly match or turn more laps than the winner in Expert 12, with shunts.

There were other factors, but if non-shunted motors were at a big disadvantage, they couldn't beat the shunted motors, unless it was a fluke situation.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#11 Koford fan

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 11:16 PM

Quote on another forum say this:
 

shunt wires (from the lead wire tabs on the motor to the brushes) allow the power/current to take a more direct path to the brushes. Normally, the power is transferred through the brush hoods and the springs; if you use shunt wires, the springs should be isolated with teflon. The springs last longer this way because of the reduced heat. [/size][/font][/background]

According to the pros at Pro Slot, this only works (well) on more powerful motors (Gp12, Gp20...) and is not really worth the hassle on S16Ds and such, as they can´t use/draw the additional power from/trough the shunt wires and don´t get that hot either.


Tom Blantern

#12 MSwiss

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 12:23 AM

The sides of the brush, if the hoods are formed halfway decently, will have way more surface area to transfer current than a shunt wire will, running in a skinny slot at the end of the brush.

I raced and pitted at least a few G27 cars that, in a bad wreck, had damage that resulted in a shunt wire pulled out from between the brush and spring.

With the end of the shunt dangling in mid-air, discovered between heats or at the end of the race, I never noticed any loss in speed.

The last 90% of my wing career, I ran insulation only on the short end of the spring, to help hold the shunt in place.

Running insulation on the long end just makes it easier for that leg to get knocked off of the hook in a wreck.

Keep it insulated from heat?

The majority of your surface area, tranferring heat, is the coil wrapping around the spring cup three-five times.

Having insulation on the hook end just impedes, albeit a tiny bit, the efficiency of the hoods and aluminum endbell, as a heat sink unit, for that long end of the spring.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#13 Koford fan

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 04:24 AM

Mike, i understand your point.

 

Yes, insulator on the short end not long one.

 

I on my side feel it goes fast when shunting it. Everbody does it, and at least most of communities of slot cars around the world shunts their motors.


Tom Blantern

#14 havlicek

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 05:55 AM

One thing I know is that poorly done shunts can lead to a brush getting hung up as well as even a short through the chassis in some cases.  If either of those happens, there's absolutely no doubt the car will go faster without the shunts!

 

-john


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#15 Robert BG

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 09:48 AM

This here is why I like to hack a big section off of my brush hoods and that is the big reason why I want to redo my hardware. I hate trimming them on a endbell and chances are I'll slip and damage a aluminum endbell.

I feel that the slot is too small for most shunts to ride in. Once you go through a wreck even the most carefully-placed shunts can hang up.
Robert Fothergill

#16 Koford fan

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 10:15 AM

Robert,

Why would you trim the endbell? Don't do any modification on them otherwise you reduce the quality of them. Most of them are made so they will work with or without shunt.

If your brush isn't sliding inn and out without hangup whatsoever, use hone tool to file out.
 
If you having problem making the slot in brushes, there are tools out there that make your life much easier.
Tom Blantern

#17 Robert BG

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 11:42 AM

Tom,

I trim the brush hoods in order to keep shunts from hanging up during a race. The modifications I make are no different than what some manufacturers offer in their designs.
 
Another thing that may seem pointless to most is reduced weight. While it's secondary and not why I modify them it is still something I consider. I will do whatever possible at times to reliably reduce any weight I can. Every tenth of a gram counts in a class where there is no weight limit.
Robert Fothergill

#18 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 11:51 AM

Are the anodized spring cups electrically conductive? One good reason to use them only with shunted brushes. A dot of red arm dye helps to mark polarity for lead wires.


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#19 Robert BG

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 12:46 PM

anodizing on aluminum works as a insulator although it is very thin and easily damaged.In other words it helps but is similar to a thin coat of paint in most cases as far as insulation goes but is harder than paint.

 

I have a setup that does it at home and I cant get it all that thick but I'm sure the commercial processes can do a better job.But its doubtful they go that far on spring posts.


Robert Fothergill

#20 Koford fan

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 12:58 PM

Tom,

I trim the brush hoods in order to keep shunts from hanging up during a race. The modifications I make are no different than what some manufacturers offer in their designs.
 
Another thing that may seem pointless to most is reduced weight. While it's secondary and not why I modify them it is still something I consider. I will do whatever possible at times to reliably reduce any weight I can. Every tenth of a gram counts in a class where there is no weight limit.

Mate, i would't do any modification to the brush hood. They are wide enough for shunt to slide there.

If you having problem shunt not moving during race then it either too tick or too hard (after soldered).


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#21 Robert BG

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 03:30 PM

Tom,thankfully there's more than one way to build a motor.

Besides that quite a few manufactures make or made hoods similar to the way I trim them(Camen,ProSlot,RJR,and I think Champion and Mura  all made hoods similar) but they are either a different pattern or arent available anymore. It's not like I'm cutting 3/4s of the hood away ;) and while I understand where you are coming from when a International 15 or group 27 hits another car at full speed no matter how carefully you do your shunts they can and will get knocked out of place no matter how perfectly you make them.


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#22 Koford fan

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 04:34 PM

Robert, i had many crashes either by my own mistake or someone else hit me and none of them had a shunt come off. !!

At least i havent experiences the way you describe.

 

I run prod24 and box12 (both cahoza can and endbell with cahoza spring #255. Product #255 is around 8% more tension than #254

Even tough iv raced #254, but point is the spring itself is hard enough to press the shunt into the slot of brushes.

Of course you have to modify the brushes slot, making it deeper and a bit wider to fit both shunt / spring(insulator)

 

Im not gonna bother you with this anymore, im just trying to help you.

Maybe its the way you setup, shunt it id love to help. but im not there, a pictures would tell me tousand word.


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#23 Robert BG

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 05:27 PM

I understand that you are trying to help and I'm not trying to be rude here.But the way i trim the Koford hoods is almost identical to what several other companies do including Cahoza.It has nothing to do with how I do shunts it is simply the style I prefer over Kofords offering.When they are cut this way there is more room for the shunts and less chance of them getting hung up or rubbing against the hoods.

 

I prefer the angle cut hoods as shown here made by Cahoza and SEVERAL other companies 266.jpg

The problem is nobody makes them anymore for my bolt pattern so I choose to cut them myself.


Robert Fothergill

#24 Koford fan

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 05:55 PM

Hm, will proslot hardware fit on your koford endbell?

like this one: Proslot Brush Hoods and heatsinks

 

I understand what you mean by trimming brush hood, i got to admit i tough you trimmed along side heh.

I have some of these proslot hardware wich is angled, but on a proslot endbell and on a koford can. Yes, it sound weird but iv raced it.


Tom Blantern

#25 Robert BG

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 06:35 PM

No worries,that proslot and the Cahoza actually have the exact same pattern of screw holes.Neither of which fit or else I'd run them.

I did expand the holes on a set of Cahoza's I had and made them work but that was just for a old junkyard build drag motor made from old spare parts.Definitely not something I'd race.

 

The only ones that fit that I've found still made are the Koford or the Cahoza that is similar to the Koford.I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure Cahoza made them for Koford for some time a while back.They are very close but the Cahoza is nicer quality but usually double the price.

 

I'm looking into cutting some of my own but if it's too much to deal with I'll just modify the Kofords. Another thing I do is drill another hole in each buss bar to thread my shunts through.I find it's easier for me and I use less solder and have less problems with shunts that are mechanically fastened on both buss bars.You have a lot less wicking of solder and for me when changing motors during a race the last thing I want is to have a shunt come off.It is rare but for me the negative shunt will always give me trouble when I'm in the lead lol.

 

When I got back into racing a lot of the Int 15 stuff was no longer made.So I had to buy quite a few used setups.Had I bought new stuff this wouldnt be a issue really as I would have just done it as I assembled motors.But its tough to find used Cahoza GT 1 Int 15's let alone new ones.So I'm either stuck trying to trim them on the enbell or replace everything.If they are fast though I've just left them alone but the more I test the bigger the rebuild pile gets.


Robert Fothergill





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