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Blueprinted my first C-can


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#1 Car-2

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 11:03 PM

Blueprinted my first C-can for a OM Box Wing car. Koford super Feather can with a ball bearing and Koford feather endbell and magnets. I topped it off with a balanced Koford G12 40* Arm. It ought to be a nice-running little motor.

 

IMG_0635.JPG

 

This all got me to thinking about the timing. I went with a 40* arm on the advice of a very knowledgeable person. I did notice Koford has these arms in a few other degrees of advance. What is the upside and downside of running a more advanced arm? One could assume more power or RPM but does that come with the downside of a lot more heat?


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#2 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:15 AM

Shunts?

Bearings?

Glued bushing in?
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#3 Car-2

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:47 AM

Class rules dictate no shunts, bearings in the can end, and bushing in the endbell.


Robert Uzzi

#4 Overdrive

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:21 PM

How did you set the magnets?

 

Did PA give any guidance?

 

He knows his stuff.


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#5 Car-2

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:30 PM

Been talking with PA some but had some experience with pretty wild R/C motors before I tackled this. I set the magnets biased toward the can end a tiny bit so I only needed about one 7 thou shim on that side. Used a .530" slug to set them with the Koford epoxy. This thing draws more amps than my tiny power supply will provide so I'll probably take it up there and see how it runs on his supply. I really need to get a decent power supply but have been choking on prices.
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#6 Lee Palmer

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:36 PM

I've always ran more like 44° arms. .518" diameter. Most of the Box 12 records at our track are mine. Lap total, high heat, and lane records. Only one that eludes me is TQ. Rich Curnutte has that one. That was racing a single motor the whole race. I used Mura Red Dots .500" long for heat soak. My motors only drop like a half a tenth to a full tenth from start of heat to the finish. The higher timing allows higher RPM.
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#7 Lee Palmer

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:38 PM

PS: I have a Casey Scott power supply, 8 amp for sale. Almost new.

#8 Car-2

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:43 PM

I also used the .500" Koford magnets with the improved/stronger orientation for what it's worth. Been eying the radial orientation magnets. I'm tempted to build another motor with a more aggressive arm just to compare. I am trying to decide how aggressive though hence the questions on the downside of more timing.
Robert Uzzi

#9 Lee Palmer

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:47 PM

Keep in mind, more timing may have to gear differently. I ran 9/43 on most motors. Had to go 10/44 on a couple. I liked to use same set-up with different arms. Now you're not testing everything new. Keeping the same known setup and testing different arms. More of a apple to apple test.

#10 Car-2

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 02:52 PM

I think PA has me starting with a 10/40 for gearing, I'd have to check to be sure. I've got a couple of other gears to experiment with.


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Robert Uzzi

#11 Koford fan

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 03:59 PM

You using magnet shims, doesn't it break the rule? Under what rule are you guys follow?
Quite difference from ours, we follow Sveslot rule wich follow ESROC.
 
When installing with .530" slug, I supose those magnet were .450" long and .150" thick.

Gearing I use is 8/38.
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#12 Car-2

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 04:52 PM

No shims, they fit tight to the can. They were .500" long and .150" thick Koford M604 magnets. I'll have to check I don't remember seeing shims mentioned under the TSRA One Motor Box Stock rules. Either way I did not use them.
Robert Uzzi

#13 Robert BG

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 10:49 PM

Congrats,now go build another. ;)

I run Intl 15s but I think the smaller arms Lee uses are part of why his like the higher timing although I could be wrong.
 
I'd highly recommend getting at least another endbell set up with advanced timing. Even if it isn't race legal it will allow you to easily test more and less timing with the set-up you have. Advanced endbells are a great way to remove the variable of having a dud arm when experimenting with different advances on a certain set-up. For example you could have a fast 40* arm and want to try 44*s and if the new arm is a dud you'll think it's the timing whereas with a 4* advanced endbell you'll easily recognize if the additional timing was beneficial or not since you know exactly what was going on at 40*.
 
Also get yourself a notebook and keep detailed records on all changes. When you make a change, test it with a baseline ratio and then try others and see what happens.Its hard to believe but I saw a decent improvement in one of my 27 Lights just by going from a. 515" to .516" hole, but going to .517" was a mistake and I had to start over.
 
Last but not least is don't make too many big changes if you're not happy. Sometimes drastic changes can hurt. So it's best to learn what each change does and why, then make a note of it and so on. Also trying to figure out why a motor is a dud can teach you a lot more then getting lucky and throwing together a screamer. Everyone gets a rocket now and then, its the best guys are usually the ones who know why a combo turns out to be a dud . ;)
 
Good luck.
Robert Fothergill

#14 Car-2

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 11:00 PM

Interesting, never knew about advanced endbells. Let's see what my Google foo turns up.
Robert Uzzi

#15 Robert BG

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 06:35 AM

I'm currently working away from home or else I'd show you pics.

All it is though, is where the hardware is advanced a few degrees.
I've never had a plastic endbell with a advance so I can't say for sure if they can be drilled for it (I'm sure someone will say if it can be done). But you can definitely get a aluminum one drilled for it and that was part of why I mentioned it might not be legal for your class.

Nonetheless it is a great way to tune timing and learn what works or doesnt work. I've actually got a extra one for most of my setups.
Robert Fothergill

#16 Zippity

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 03:40 PM

rotor.jpg
 
You can loosen the four allen head can screws to rotate the endbell for an additional + or - 7 degrees timing.

#17 Car-2

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 11:36 AM

Well I got a chance to run this thing on a power supply and it had some issues with surging. According to PA it's a large chance it is related to the Koford end bell being pretty soft so I stated building a replacement Pro Slot end bell. Alas while drilling the holes my drill bit snapped so I am waiting on some new ones to arrive. When I disassembled the old end bell to get the Koford screws to reuse it seems after only a few minutes of run time the brush hoods and aluminum heat sinks had fused to the plastic.


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#18 Robert BG

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 02:25 PM

Is it not allowed to run aluminum?I know some classes you can for G12.

 

When you assembled it did you clean out the com slots?


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#19 Car-2

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 02:27 PM

I don't believe it is allowed and yes I cleaned out the com slots.


Robert Uzzi

#20 Samiam

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 06:05 AM

Hillbilly Gp-12 allows aluminum end bells. 


Sam Levitch
 
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#21 Car-2

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 04:56 PM

Well after a couple of hours straightening the hardware on the &$#@! Pro Slot end bell I got in installed and got a chance to break it in on a power supply. What do you know, the surging issues were gone. Started out drawing about 4 amps and then dropped to about 3.2 amps before it trickled up to about 3.4. The hardware is not as I would like it to fit but it was acceptable. So I am on the hunt for something better.

 

This motor will be run in Anger in Sept so I've got a bit of testing time with it.


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#22 Car-2

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 11:15 AM

Just to update, I ran this motor in anger today and managed to turn 2.5's on a King.


Robert Uzzi

#23 Koford fan

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 04:54 PM

What was the voltage on the track when you tested?


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#24 Car-2

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 04:57 PM

14.3


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#25 Koford fan

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 06:10 PM

chassis? gearing? just curious.


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#26 Car-2

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 06:37 PM

Koford 530C running 10/43 on Giant hub Jet tires.

 

It's a bit war weary as I haven't cleaned it up yet.

 

IMG_0698.JPG


Robert Uzzi





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