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Hand-out motors at IRRA® Premier events discussion


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#1 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 12:39 PM

I've been considering expanding hand-outs to other classes. There are both pluses and minuses. Maybe a separate thread would be best and I will definitely follow along to see the racers opinions.

And all along I've been waiting on you to "pull the trigger". LOL.

[This thread was split from one in the Sano forum at Mike McMasters' request.]


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#2 MSwiss

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 01:53 PM

"Both pluses and minuses"?

You waver more than I do.

Anyway, you could get away with it easier than I could.

I can't get away with running out of baked spaghetti. LOL.


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#3 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 03:29 PM

Not wavering. Plus is that the playing field "may be" more level. At least it would help quench the motor cheating rumors.

 

Minuses.... first and foremost is the logistics of getting 55+ racers set up with hand-outs on each of three days, making sure there is enough time to at least start a break-in process, and then have track practice with your hand-out motor. That is without starting racing in mid-afternoon. Then of course there is the extra cost to the racer. Unless we impound motors overnight to allow them to be used in another class. But that would require securely impounding them which is another can of worms...


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#4 brnursebmt

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 07:25 AM

And what about hand-out tires, too? That ground has already been broken and it went very well.


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#5 Wizard16

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 09:21 AM

Mike,

 

From my admittedly brief experience hand-outs control the odds of someone finding a rocket and then keeping it for the big races. That's not to say someone won't find one it just lowers the odds IMO. Impounding, etc,. can be a problem I suppose.


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#6 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 10:02 AM

Totally agree. But hand-outs create other issues as well. They definitely lengthen the day. And they definitely increase the cost to enter. I'm not ruling it out... just trying to cover all bases before I decide between all hand-outs or not.


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#7 willy wonka

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 12:23 PM

I like it the way it is now. Hand-out Coupe. Can-Am and F1 are the racers' own motor. Considering the large turnouts at premier events both time and money are some times critical factors into one's decision to attend. As the premier events are held yearly I would like to know I've put the best motor I can get in my car.


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#8 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 12:56 PM

Will get the schedule up soon.

It will be the same as last year, but we will move F1 Flat, to after the two GTC Coupe races.

In the meantime, while over at Chuck Gambo's, working on some top secret stuff, he showed me a pic he took at Sano II.

It's a good one.

attachicon.gif20160816_205753-1.jpg

 

Crazy good picture! Ray and Sano Dave, and all you other fellas looking so young. [Referencing the original thread HERE.]

 

While it doesn't really matter to me either way and I may have different feelings if I was an A Mainer like Willy,

 

I like the idea of hand-outs. It seems my best motors always have come from a hand-out program. I received two very good ones at the 2015 R4 and incredible ones from the 2015 Sano!


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#9 kvanpelt

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 01:34 PM

Yes, with my limited experience, I would prefer the hand-out route.

 

Whether it was at the Sanos or the Mid-America ROC races, hand-outs have always been good to me. I would rather go that route than ending up with a large amount of motors looking for that special one.

 

If the car is good and the driveline is efficient and free, most motors will keep you in the hunt with hand-outs. Running your own motors is another story!

 

I think if guys really looked at the costs, hand-outs are cheaper in the long run.

 

Either way, health permitting, I will be there!!!


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#10 Rick

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 04:27 PM

I like the concept of hand out motors. Probably right, over the long haul, cheaper too............


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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:44 PM

I like it the way it is now. Handout coupe.can am and f1 are the racers own motor. Considering the large turnouts at premiere events both time and money are some times critical factors into ones decision to attend. Being the premiere events are held yearly I would like to know I've put the best motor I can get in my car.

Seems like the further one travels, the less excited guys are about handouts across the board.

Also, as mentioned, it's seems excessive to make guys buy motors for every race, but it also seems like too much work to impound them overnight.

When I let the Ams use the same handouts, in all 3 days, at Sano 7(?), I can't honestly remember if I impounded them.

Regardless, on that subject, unless you frisk someone, going in and out of raceway, midday, or even just going into the washroom, how can you stop someone from tampering with the motor, if they are determined.

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#12 glueside

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:31 AM

Regardless, on that subject, unless you frisk someone, going in and out of raceway, midday, or even just going into the washroom, how can you stop someone from tampering with the motor, if they are determined.

 

We could have those people sit between KVP, Bernie, and Mike all weekend.


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#13 Rick

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:47 AM

Bump, I think this got lost in the shuffle?


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#14 Noose

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:01 PM

I agree with Willy. I have plenty of motors and all through our series last season and RP I used only a few. They get better the more I run them so to add cost to the events is a negative for me when I don't need them.
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#15 Half Fast

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:19 PM

My take:
 
1) Hand-outs definitely level the playing field
 
2) They do not increase costs because you have to buy motors anyway and you can use the hand-outs in other non-hand-out races.
 
Cheers,
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#16 Noose

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:23 PM

Bill,

 

Point 1 OK.  Do not agree with point 2 though. The only motor I buy is the handout one. I buy two at those races.  Sometimes when there are left overs I buy some.

 

Add the cost of travel, hotel, pit passes, etc. it does add costs. 

 

The racing has been super close since we went to Hawk Retros so why increase the cost to the racers then?


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#17 Half Fast

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:32 PM

Joe-
 
The fact that you are buying extra motors means you gotta buy them anyway, so no real extra cost. Also at the races they are usually at discount to the "off the wall" price
 
The motors costs are trivial compared to travel and hotel.
 
Cheers,
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#18 James Grandi

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:33 PM

I like that there is at least 1 class where horsepower is essentially, luck of the draw. It doesn't make a 100% level playing field if I'm honest, because out of 30-40 or more handout motors, there does end up being a few rockets, and indeed a few that are too slow to be competitive, even with a top notch car and driver. That is where the luck part comes in. That's why when the option is to buy 2, we buy 2. Run the best one. I've gotten a couple really good ones, and a couple that were borderline mediocre before. Luck of the draw, I'm ok with that.

With the other classes, I do like having the choice to run whichever motor I choose. I freely admit that I do spend a fair amount of time and some money looking for a couple silver bullets. From there, I can figure out where I'm losing ground to the faster guys and try to change the car setup. If I don't do that, there are few things more frustrating than frantically flinging motors into the car trying to find something that'll pull down the straight at a premier event
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#19 Steve Deiters

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:35 PM

I don't know if this is part of the discussion or not, but it in the handout races in the past that I have been to it was a specific class only.  If the switch is to handouts for all classes why not make it a handout motor purchase for all the classes for that weekend.  It helps to minimize costs and certainly facilitates and simplifies the the administration of the racing over the weekend.

 

As far as that one "trick"/"one in a thousand" motor moving from one class win to the next a "one and done rule" could be in effect.....or not.  Myself I wouldn't have a problem with it being reused.


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#20 Noose

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:43 PM

Making sure those handouts don't walkout is the problem Steve. Also, as already noted, it is going to make for a much longer day.


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#21 Half Fast

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:47 PM

I agree that handouts make for a longer day, but most big races are "all day affairs" anyway.

 

Cheers

 

PS: Steve "one and done" or "won and done" :)


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#22 Noose

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:49 PM

Bill have you seen any real difference in the standings with hand-outs vs. bring your own?  Same guys at the top. So why make it more costly?


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#23 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:09 PM

After getting a motor at Retropalooza that was apparently mis-marked for the positive lead (and ended up being a total turd), I'm not in favor of going all hand-outs.  That basically limited me to one of the two motors I purchased.  If it came down to all hand-outs, I would want the option of buying more than just two motors.  Maybe the way to do that would be to pay in advance to "reserve" motors.  

 

I agree with Noose's last statement... I don't see handout anything as a way to level the playing field.  The fast guys are always the fast guys, no matter what you hand them.  


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#24 Noose

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 02:02 PM

I agree with Noose's last statement... I don't see handout anything as a way to level the playing field.  The fast guys are always the fast guys, no matter what you hand them.  

Let's use RetroPalooza as an example Bill.  Your home track.

 

Top 3 in GTC-FK with handouts

Adam Chaya 336.03

Colin Martin 336

Brian Cochrane 335

 

Top GTC-Pro with handouts

Chubby - 351

Tommy Skurka - 348

Edsel - 344

Willy Custer - 343

James Grandi - 342

Adam Chaya - 341

Eric Gehrken - 340

Pat Skegs - 333

 

Then we look at Stock Cars with no handouts and just the top 4

Chubby - 306

Eric Gehrken - 305

James Grandi - 305

Ed Sohl - 304

 

Same way for CanAm and F1.  Top guys at the top.


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#25 Tim Neja

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 02:15 PM

Totally agree. But hand-outs create other issues as well. They definitely lengthen the day. And they definitely increase the cost to enter. I'm not ruling it out... just trying to cover all bases before I decide between all hand-outs or not.

We've had handout races in the past---and I'm a BIG PROPONENT of them because it LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD! :)   I haven't seen the necessity of lengthening the day.  What does happen is people get used to what they need to do to BE prepared to race!  That is water break in for a few minutes--then running break in and then racing. It can all be accomplished in less than an hour so that ALL people will have an EQUAL chance at getting their "missle" ready.  It really does NOT increase the cost of racing because you're going to need a motor anyway--so those that don't care about ultimate horsepower buy one and bolt it in.   

There needs to be a limit of how many you can buy--2-3 would be sufficient to allow for some variability in motors.  But that will be a TRULY LEVEL playing field for all who race.  No one has a hidden missle the've been saving for 3 months for this big race. And it eliminates the DEEP POCKET guys that will buy 20 motors to find one! 

 

It's a good idea--but like all of them--you CAN'T satisfy everyone all the time!!   The only way to see how it will go with your group---is to do it and try to get a consensus if people prefer it or not.  Good luck and good racing!!  


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