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Cut-down brushes for PS4002FK / JK Hawk 6 motors


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#1 MSwiss

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 09:23 PM

We're still having a lot of startup problems with these motors, especially with our 200 gram-ish, 48p geared, hardbody cars.
 
Guys lately are not getting off the trigger quick enough on a non-start, and are ruining their fast motors.
 
I'm tired of doing the difficult job of hand-cutting these for my locals, so I came up with some tooling to machine cut them fairly precisely.
 
Thus, I will make them available to everyone.
 
$4.50 pair & shipping
 
Either Koford Super Big Foot II, or Pro Slot Goldust.
 
Brushes are shortened for these narrower motors, along with the contact face height reduced from approx. .125", to approx. .107", the approx. height of a vertical brush.
 
Please note I have a $10 minimum.
 
Reasonable discount available to raceways on orders of 12 pair or more (Koford Super Big Foot II only).
 
I'm not looking to debate the validity of this product.
 
Also, check with your rules body for legality.
 
20160823_210042-1.jpg
 
20160823_210557-1.jpg

20160823_210042-1.jpg


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.





#2 MSwiss

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 10:11 AM

Congrats to Jim Crider on taking the win yesterday, at the Mid-American Hardbody Series race, at The Track using the C/R cut down brushes.

Jim ran the Koford SBF II, cut down, top and bottom, to take the win against the usual tough A Main competition, on the long, fast, ATT 106' Ogilvie oval in Superstock.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#3 Richard G With

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:56 AM

RETRO does not allow this. Push start is a problem at Dallas, and I think it's the dumbest rule ever.

 

This does not make the motors run faster, it just keeps them from going boom. I have had two PS4002FK motors with severe push start there, it doesn't seem to affect the locals as much. Anyway, it is undectable without a teardown. It does seem to me that the ones that develop push start tend to be the faster motors.

 

We cut the brushes for the PS2002 motors at Raytown. It seems to make them run a little cooler and the rules allow it there.

 

Does this do anything on Hawk 6? The comm is larger on those, I believe.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#4 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 02:29 PM

The Hawk 6 also has a small comm.

I originally made these, when that motor came out, five or six years ago, to improve effeciency.

When I would notice a push start issues with ones with full brushes, I thought it was just a broken wire.

I quit selling them because of that.

I never put two and two together with the brush overlap, combined with the heavy cogging neo mags, as the real cause of the push start problem, until the 4002FK came out, and we were using it a lot in our Hardbody racing.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#5 Zippity

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:11 PM

Sadly, brushes "cannot be timed, drilled, friction cut, or fitted with shunts" here in New Zealand. :(
 
This motor is the mainstay of our 1/24 scale racing.



#6 Cap Henry

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:19 PM

I don't understand not allowing trimmed brushes. The only things you can trimming the brushes is reduce overlap and reduce timing. Without physically moving the hoods you can't advance timing.

On a certain high power King I had luck running brushes trimmed on both sides, reducing timing and overlap.


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#7 Half Fast

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:27 PM

Sadly, brushes "cannot be timed, drilled, friction cut, or fitted with shunts" here in New Zealand.  :(

 
Well at least it rhymes! :)
 
Cheers.


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#8 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:28 PM

I know in the first thread, I requested this thread not turn into a "Should they be legal?" deal, but with more of situations like the below, I really feel like the banning of these are anti-racer.

PS4002 meltdown

While only a $13.95 motor, and a popped one means another sale for me, it's still (out of a lack of a better term) heart breaking to me, to witness, a good running motor fail.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#9 Zippity

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:43 PM

Mike,

 

Sorry for hijacking your thread - that was not my intention, but rather to warn my fellow 1/24 racers here in New Zealand :)

 

Ron



#10 mgerbetz

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:45 PM

200 gram hard body, wouldn't that = a 16D motor class, Mike?

Just sayin'...

Mikey.
Michael Gerbetz

#11 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:47 PM

I don't understand not allowing trimmed brushes.


Neither do I.

It makes even less sense with orgs that allow you to change the brushes and springs.

You can do that, I assume under the guise, of improving your motor performance, but something done to primarily to allow restarts, and eliminate failures, is not allowed.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#12 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:56 PM

200 gram hard body, wouldn't that = a 16D motor class, Mike?

 

No.

Guys love the performance of the motor.

If pushstarts were just an issue with Hardbodies, I might say yes, but along with the example in the link in post #8, it also has happened by me, with 65 gram wing cars.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#13 mgerbetz

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:45 PM

Gotchya, Very good.
Michael Gerbetz

#14 Lee Palmer

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:15 AM

I just put vertical hoods on mine. Works awesome without the whole modified brush issue.


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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:24 AM

Obviously a good mod, but not one many rulesets would allow.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#16 gc4895

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:56 AM

So, how does one change to vertical hoods? 

 

I'm using Pro Slot motors and am using a lot of the smaller Chinese arms. Going to vertical hoods with be of great service I would think. Going to vertical hoods would, however, require a substantial motor brush break in. That is, unless there are brushes available that are shaped correctly. 

 

I will admit to being very new at using reduced brushes with the smaller Chinese commutators. My experience, so far, is only positive. 


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#17 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:00 AM

I don't think anyone sells a vertical hood that just screws right on to the existing holes. Lee can comment on what he used.

Koford sells premade vertical brushes, M244.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#18 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:25 PM

Tim just called and made me aware that the tooling of the Hawk 6 endbell has been revised to self-align the hoods.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#19 Lee Palmer

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:00 PM

Obviously a good mod, but not one many rulesets would allow.

 

Mr Swiss, at our track we're lucky to race once a month. Not many rules. Right now it's just LMP, Falcon, Hawk, or PSFK motor. Any gear, tire, chassis, or LMP body. We keep it honest.

 

I took my first motor and flipped the endbell around so negative on back like regular motors are. We race for fun mostly.



#20 Lee Palmer

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:03 PM

I don't think anyone sells a vertical hood that just screws right on to the existing holes. Lee can comment on what he used.

Koford sells premade vertical brushes, M244.

 

As far as what I used, got no clue. Just bought a bunch of old crap off eBay and there was a box of brush hoods. Maybe four or five sets of verticals. Look like Koford but maybe a historian like Ron would know for sure.



#21 olescratch

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 01:55 PM

Could you post a picture of the hoods for us to see? 

I've always thought that using a thinner brush might be a solution, but how do you fit it to these motors?
John Stewart

#22 Lee Palmer

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 02:02 PM

I got a bunch of used and new stuff in an eBay lot I purchased.

I drive truck for a living and am out of town until next week sometime. I'll post pics then.
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#23 gc4895

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 03:24 PM

FYI, I have been testing Mike's cut down SBF2 brushes in my ProSlot s16d motors. I wasn't having push start problems. Rather, I noticed excessive comm and brush burning.

My experience so far with the cut SBF2:
- Motors as fast (or maybe faster) using cut vs uncut brushes
- Comm wear even without the excessive carbon burning I was seeing before when I cut the comms
- No burn marks on the edges of the brushes
- Motor runs cooler, though I have no way of scientifically measuring this
- Our rules allow endbell timing advance (twisting) and I believe these cut brushes really help mitigate problems one might encounter cranking the timing a bit

Very happy with these brushes.
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