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Super 16 verses 16 motor tech question


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#1 ovaltrav

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 03:03 PM

Ok, I have what I believe is a dumb question but here it goes. Getting into some new racing and the track has a Pro Slot PS2002 rule. But I have heard from a few people that there are guys running the PS2003 Super and getting away with it. I was told that the track is not teching motors because they were told by Pro Slot that there is no way to visually tell the difference between a Super 16 and a std 16 unless you take the motors apart. Please tell me I am not a idiot and this is not true? Why not just look at the stack length on the pinion end of the can?

 

Thanks for any insight into this.


Travis Light




#2 Samiam

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 03:35 PM

The difference between a 16-D (2002) and a S16-D(2003) is easily detected by the way you describe. The shorter stack on the S16-D is  obvious to the naked eye. A quick glance at the motor is all that's needed. If the track will not step up and do a proper tech. then the racers must appoint someone else to do the job. Announce the inspection way ahead of time. Watch to see who runs back to their bench to change motors.

 

There is a huge difference in performance so setting a tight break-out will also take care of the problem.

 

BTW.....The guy who told you : "they were told by Proslot that there is no way to visually tell the difference between a super 16 and a std 16 unless you take the motors apart." ...., I would check his motor FIRST!


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Sam Levitch
 
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#3 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 03:47 PM

The S16D arm uses larger diameter (28 ga. vs.30ga.) wire than the 16D arm. A S16D arm used to be of a larger diameter than a 16D, but I don't know what Proslot currently uses.


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#4 boxerdog

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 04:35 PM

I was always pretty sure I could tell the difference, too, based on stack length and wire size. But I wouldn't argue with Dan. Simplest thing to do is to make the 2003 the spec motor. Problem solved. Been there....


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#5 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 04:47 PM

With Parma, the S16D had green endbells and green coatings on the armatures - Easy and simple to add a specification to the next batch order - and should have been done from day ONE.  How about a MINIMUM level of professionalism.........even arm dye added to shelf stock could be done at sales.

 

 The wire size and stack length SHOULD be obvious to a trained inspector at each race. If the arm extends beyond the magnet, it usually is a Super16D.  An OHM reading at the braids should also be obvious as well.


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#6 Zippity

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 05:07 PM

Have a look here :)


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#7 Samiam

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 05:13 PM

We are talking about a difference in stack length of .100" . Any decent tech guy worth his weight can see this with his good eye closed. 

 

I have the two motors right in front of me. I don't need to talk to Dan. A blind man can literally  tell the difference. I closed my eyes and used my finger to feel the gap at the pinion end like Travis said. I just made a GO/NO-GO gauge out of a popsicle stick. Sorry but this is a non issue. It is either a 16-D with a long stack of .600" or a S16-D with a short stack of .500" . A HUGE obvious difference. 


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#8 Samiam

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 05:49 PM

.100" is way beyond mfg. tolerances. Even for the Chinese

 

BTW Travis.....There are NO dumb questions here.

 

But as you see there are variances in the answers.

 

Does the tech guy own a " Dr Mom " Otoscope? Makes looking into these motors much easier. Less than $20. 


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#9 Zippity

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 05:50 PM

The 16D has 70 turns of 30 gauge wire on a stack that is .600" in length.

 

Whereas the S16D has 60 turns of 28 gauge wire on a .500" stack.

 

:)


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#10 Half Fast

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 06:43 PM

Are we sure we are talking about the specs of the Pro Slot version of these motors rather than Parma?

 

Cheers


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#11 Samiam

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:11 PM

The motors are supposed to be manufactured to standard industry specs as outlined in Zippity's chart. If you want to go way off the reservation and start messing with specs things can go south real fast. There can be no racing if these standards are not complied with.

 

I am looking at the two motors in question. Unless this is a recent phenomenon where Pro Slot has thrown well-established specs out the window, I can't see a .100" disparity in stack length happening.  

 

16ds.jpg

 

 


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#12 Outback

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:20 PM

This will be my last post on this subject and most likely all in the future to. I try to give honest, information from the motor builder, but then no one wants to believe it. Then when I post something back against what is said here... it's deleted by the administrator, which is the one who contacted me, setup my account, and encouraged me to post here. Go Figure? Of course I'm sure "Cheater" will delete this one, too.

 

I had a World 100 race that 37 racers entered, and we took all 8 driver's of the A Main, motors to impound and sent them to Pro-Slot. 3 of the 8 motors looked completely different than the other 5, and almost everyone that night thought for sure we had a few "illegal" motors. But guess what? They all came back from Pro-Slot completely legal. One had "stretched" brush springs that wasn't illegal, and it wasn't one of the "questionable motors."

 

I have a motor that a long time slot car racer told me he knew it was a S16D, told him "guess again" as that motor has been sent to Pro-Slot 3 different times and has came back legal each time.

 

I talked to Dan about this motor and he told me every once in awhile you're going to run up against one of those 16D that will look a lot like a S16D, but it's not. He explained a lot of other things to me also that I'm not going to put on here as I would be all night writing those paragraphs.

 

You guys do what you feel is best, and I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Wish all of you nothing but the best, but I'm outta here. I can easily see I'm not needed nor wanted here. Happy Motoring!



#13 Samiam

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:47 PM

Tim,

 

There will always be people who disagree or have a different take on a situation. Don't take this so personally. This is how blogs work. I have no problem with your posts.

 

The motors in question may or may not be all 16-Ds. But from what the long accepted industry standards show, the two arms are so different , it should not be hard to tell them apart. We're not talking .005", .010" or even .050" off here. It's .100".

 

Travis asked and we all answered. Your answer may be accurate with the situation you had. But Travis asked how to tell the two apart. Zippity's chart shows the hard cold facts. So he might have some short 16-D arms that look suspect. They may be OK. But if someone is truly trying to sneak a S16-D through tech, I think it will be easy peasy to pick it out.  If not in tech then when he blows the strapping tape off the guy in the next lane.

 

Post any time you want. Most of us are thick skinned.


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#14 Half Fast

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:47 PM

Tim

 

This is a discussion board you know, where people are allowed to discuss the issue at hand!

 

Cheers


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#15 Half Fast

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:55 PM

Sam -

 

Clean your Inbox. I couldn't send you a PM.


Bill Botjer

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#16 Samiam

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 08:21 PM

You should see my basement.   :crazy:


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#17 Mike Patterson

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 09:26 PM

Aren't 16Ds unbalanced?


We all need to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.


#18 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 10:16 PM

Parma 16D arms are unbalanced. Not the Pro Slot SpeedFX 16D arms that came out about 10 years ago.


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#19 ovaltrav

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 09:10 AM

Guys, thanks for all the input. I did not think I was a idiot and could not visually tell the difference in most cases between the two motors. Sounds like Tim needs to allow more motor tech in house at his place also. Nothing against Pro Slot but I am sure they have more important things to do than babysit cheaters. That's why I feel the tech decision should be made in-house by a knowledgeable tech person..

 

Thanks for all the help. I look forward to the new track and better tech procedures.

 

Travis


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Travis Light

#20 Outback

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 02:15 PM

I wasn't going to post again but after thinking a little I thought maybe I should have never posted on this anyway? I really don't have an issue at my track with S16D motors as they are pretty much obvious to spot from the "sound & extra speed" they have.

 

My tech and issues are more with racers trying to "cheat up" the PS2002, like advance timing, and other things that require removing the seal.

 

I'm not sure how Travis has any business "questioning" any of our teching at OMS, as although he has "claimed" he was coming to race here, he has yet to show up? I can assure him we tech way more than most tracks, and multiple times throughout the event. As far as Pro Slot "babysitting anyone", again where was that mentioned? In fact it was Dan's recommendation that we send motors to him to make sure they are legal.

 

It's not easy teching 28-30plus racers at every event\, here at OMS, but I can guarantee you we try to stay up on anyone trying to push the rules!

 

It's always the nature of the beast with most slot car racers that they got beat by a motor! Never out drove, loss to a better handling car, or simply wasn't your night.

 

I have no problems with the banter, and discussions on here guys, as I would never survive being a track promoter if I did!! Lol

 

My problem with this site is the constant "policing of politics" by the administrator. It's not worth my time to get into a discussion and then have some of my posts removed because of someone else's opinion. seems pointless for me to waste my time here. Happy Racing


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#21 Cheater

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 02:26 PM

Constant "policing of politics"? Give me a break, Tim. Slotblog's Terms of Use has been and will be enforced, as always. Most of the folks here like it that way.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#22 Outback

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 02:56 PM

Well I least I got your attention Greg! I know you don't want to discuss this here but if you get a chance PM me or call me. I'd like to know why my posts above were deleted?

 

I never attacked anyone, nor called them names, or really nothing that I see listed in your "terms of Use", that I can see.

 

Thanks


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#23 Cheater

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 03:06 PM

Tim,

 

I don't know why your posts were deleted, as I didn't actually delete them. I did delete two or three of your posts in this thread that were blank and assumed you had cleared them yourself as members who cannot delete their posts but can edit out the content usually take that approach.

 

Evidently one of Slotblog's moderators found them objectionable or in violation of the TOU and perhaps that mod will PM you with his reasoning.

 

FWIW I very, very rarely overrule a member of the mod team.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#24 ovaltrav

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:45 PM

Well I least I got your attention Greg! I know you don't want to discuss this here but if you get a chance PM me or call me. I'd like to know why my posts above were deleted?

 

I never attacked anyone, nor called them names, or really nothing that I see listed in your "terms of Use", that I can see.

 

Thanks

 

Tim, you yourself just attacked me on here!!  Where did I mention this was your track??  Brett did the right thing and attacked me via a PM on Facebook and not in the open. I asked him the same thing, find where I mentioned anything in the beginning about you or your track? I DID NOT! Brett apologized and then we chatted back and forth. No issues. 

 

I was once told by a very wise person that if you think the world is against you, maybe it's not the world that has the problem. From what I can see, you have a great place, but there are other tracks out there, if something is mentioned on here, it might not be about your track. Please feel free to contact me if you have any further issues with me asking a general question on this forum. I thank Brett for handling it properly.

 

Sorry to everyone else for how this was handled. I just was asking a (what I thought) simple question.


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Travis Light

#25 Outback

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 05:06 PM

Guys, thanks for all the input. I did not think I was a idiot and could not visually tell the difference in most cases between the two motors. Sounds like Tim needs to allow more motor tech in house at his place also. Nothing against Pro Slot but I am sure they have more important things to do than babysit cheaters. That's why I feel the tech decision should be made in-house by a knowledgeable tech person..
 
Thanks for all the help. I look forward to the new track and better tech procedures.

 

I wasn't going to post again but after thinking a little I thought maybe I should have never posted on this anyway? I really don't have an issue at my track with S16D motors as they are pretty much obvious to spot from the "sound & extra speed" they have.
 
My tech and issues are more with racers trying to "cheat up" the PS2002, like advance timing, and other things that require removing the seal.
 
I'm not sure how Travis has any business "questioning" any of our teching at OMS, as although he has "claimed" he was coming to race here, he has yet to show up? I can assure him we tech way more than most tracks, and multiple times throughout the event. As far as Pro Slot "babysitting anyone", again where was that mentioned? In fact it was Dan's recommendation that we send motors to him to make sure they are legal.
 
It's not easy teching 28-30 plus racers at every event\, here at OMS, but I can guarantee you we try to stay up on anyone trying to push the rules!
 
It's always the nature of the beast with most slot car racers that they got beat by a motor! Never out drove, loss to a better handling car, or simply wasn't your night.
 
I have no problems with the banter, and discussions on here guys, as I would never survive being a track promoter if I did!! LOL.
 
My problem with this site is the constant "policing of politics" by the administrator. It's not worth my time to get into a discussion and then have some of my posts removed because of someone else's opinion. seems pointless for me to waste my time here. Happy Racing

 

I highlighted what YOU wrote towards me, Travis, then I highlighted what I wrote. Tell me where I attacked you? Much less first?

 

Where did I ever mention any of this was about my track? Where do you come up with this stuff? I just tried to add some firsthand knowledge straight from Pro Slot.

 

I tell you what... don't mention me... I won't mention you.



#26 Cheater

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 05:53 PM

Time to lock this one up. The original question has been answered.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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