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Just a regular C motor, nothing special...


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 04:47 PM

... why do people run "modern" D motors? I mean, yeah... different strokes and all, and whatever's good for slots is good. Still, they're all folded and welded cans, plastic end bells, and the magnets don't have to be "special" by modern measure.  Think about it, D motors are pretty cheap and the EPX and similar magnets are as well, but there's no reason why the C motor should cost any more.  Of course, the "plus" is that the more compact (and lighter) C motor should make for a better handling car, and you could build a 1/32 car around it too if that's your thing.

So here's a basic example.  This one is a 22/25 "PdL" wind on a .440" stack, and it'll run like a scalded cat (and make that kind of sound too!).  There's no reason why a #30 (or even a #31) wind in this motor wouldn't run great, almost definitely better than the same wind in a D, so for the racers who only want to go "so-fast", the C is there as well.  I don't mean to offend, but really, what is the purpose of a D motor in the year 2016 (aside from just getting rid of inventory)?

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#2 Geary Carrier

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 05:55 PM

Hi John,

 

Excellent looking motor, you da man...

 

Oh boy, here it comes...

 

 

Thanks,

g


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Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#3 Samiam

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 06:00 PM

The D is like the Slot Car version of the Alligator.

 

Before all this sealed/tamper proof non-sense we ran C-Cans stuffed with a S-Wasp arm. 60t/ #30 for a slower than a 12 car. Only ran 16-Ds or Silver Cans in Womps. 30 years later the Ds are still here.

 

That is a hot C-Can John.  Is it a customer build or destined for Ebay?


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#4 Dominator

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 06:07 PM

I thought about 10 years ago with the introduction of the Falcon 7 type motors that the D-cans would be phased out and the 16D arm would be placed in a c-can. At the time when scale racing was more active it would have been easier for one to move from a 16-d/group 10 motor to a X-12 simply by changing the arm (mostly simple).
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#5 boxerdog

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 06:29 PM

I have no idea why "modern" D cans exist. There are C cans, ProSLot and JK "minis" and FKs to choose from.


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#6 Bill from NH

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 09:45 PM

I thought about 10 years ago with the introduction of the Falcon 7 type motors that the D-cans would be phased out and the 16D arm would be placed in a c-can.

In the early 70's Mura placed their unbalanced, unepoxied Grp. 12 arms in the Green C-can. They weren't competitive against the Mura Pink B-can Grp. 12 motors. I think I might still have one around. When Matt owned Need for Speed, I had a Canadian friend's 1/32 Eurotoy on the hillclimb. That car had a Deathstar arm in a Mura Green can & drove quite well.


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#7 havlicek

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 05:04 AM

Hi John,

 

Excellent looking motor, you da man...

 

Oh boy, here it comes...

 

 

Thanks,

g

Thanks Geary.  No need to "duck", it really has seemed strange to me for a long time.  This isn't the first time I've mentioned this either.  Some years ago I asked the same question and the answers that came back were:

*The D motor is cheaper.  I get that, but there's no reason for it either.  The two use the same technology.

 

*The D motor is slower, good for guys (and gals) that don't want to go too fast.  That one I don't get.  The C can of course be made to any spec and be as slow as anyone who runs D motors prefers.  On the other hand, you can make a D motor run fast...but you can't make a D motor small, otherwise it becomes...a C motor! :)

 

 

The D is like the Slot Car version of the Alligator.

 

Before all this sealed/tamper proof non-sense we ran C-Cans stuffed with a S-Wasp arm. 60t/ #30 for a slower than a 12 car. Only ran 16-Ds or Silver Cans in Womps. 30 years later the Ds are still here.

 

That is a hot C-Can John.  Is it a customer build or destined for Ebay?

 

Yep Sam, and a 60/30 in a C is a smooth and cool running motor.  This one is part of a pile headed for eBay that I've been doing in between ordered motors.

 

 

 

I thought about 10 years ago with the introduction of the Falcon 7 type motors that the D-cans would be phased out and the 16D arm would be placed in a c-can. At the time when scale racing was more active it would have been easier for one to move from a 16-d/group 10 motor to a X-12 simply by changing the arm (mostly simple). 

Certainly a good part of the "why" is about people having invested in the D and simply not letting go, which is understandable...but there comes a time when "letting go" makes sense.

 

 

 

I have no idea why "modern" D cans exist. There are C cans, ProSLot and JK "minis" and FKs to choose from.

...yep Dave, and all work fine for all sorts of cars, and there are other motors you left out for open type stuff...PLUS the good-old motors for the vintage stuff!

 

-john
 


John Havlicek

#8 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 06:50 AM

Mura installed an  unbalanced, unepoxied, arm, in their Green C-cans during the early 70's. I still have one down down cellar some place. I don't recall if it was done because Mura ran ran out of B-can motor parts or not, but the same arms in the B-cans ran much better. Both B & C-can motors were run in weekly races on an American Orange at the original Modelville Hobby.. Some 12-15 years ago, I ran a Canadian friend's 1/32 Eurotoy on a hillclimp with a shortened stock Deathstar arm in a Mura Green C-can.. That motor drove very well.


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#9 jimht

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 09:27 AM

Parma is the reason D motors have lasted.

As long as they were their basic RTR motor, they were dominant in the market, because Parma RTRs were the basic car of choice in most Raceways.

Now that Parma has let their version die, there's hope that all versions will die, getting rid of something that was always unsuited for serious racing compared to C can motors.

The same thing applies to C cans now that F sized motors, both sealed and unsealed, are available.

If anyone has the money to waste on a Hobby that's been dead for 50 years (joke, eh), it would be nice to have an F can motor of the same quality as the C.


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#10 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 09:31 AM

We've actually had a mild resurgence of the D-can's in the Ohio Challenge Cup as more racers are discovering how durable the motors are and the benefits of a rebuild-able motor versus a throwaway.

 

While I do know that a rebuild-able C-can or Mini can motor would likely offer more speed and better handling, it's hard to deny that the venerable Group 10 style 16D is a rugged and dependable first step into the world of opening motors up.


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#11 Pablo

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 01:18 PM

Simple reason: people run what the rules dictate.


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#12 JimF

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 02:50 PM

Simple reason: people run what the rules dictate.

 

This is of course, the answer as to why.

 

Whether we should ?................is a different question. The logistics involved in getting raceways to change what they are doing is probably akin to getting them to clean their tracks or sweep the floors. (ie: some do....many don't). First of course, we'd have to get the manufacturers to agree to a spec and start making them, then get raceways to order them and racers/customers to buy them.

 

There is certainly a niche for a motor for "motor dummys" and the sealed 16-d certainly is that. But.....the various FK motors fill that niche just as well. Dumping the 16-d from the face of the planet and engineering up a mild "C" can is a worthy endeavor I suppose but probably an answer to a question that is mostly not being asked.


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#13 havlicek

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 04:03 PM

 

Now that Parma has let their version die, there's hope that all versions will die, getting rid of something that was always unsuited for serious racing compared to C can motors.

The same thing applies to C cans now that F sized motors, both sealed and unsealed, are available.

Maybe, but there's probably a lot of stock out there somewhere waiting to be sold.  The only downside to the F size motors (ie Hawk and PS "euro"), is that as things get smaller, the reliability can suffer because of heat.  Smaller motors are also harder to work on to a degree.  

 

 

 

If anyone has the money to waste on a Hobby that's been dead for 50 years (joke, eh), it would be nice to have an F can motor of the same quality as the C

 That would be nice alright.  Right now, the "serviceable" ones have a weak/bendy bushing strap, and the end bells/hardware aren't great either.

 

 

 

While I do know that a rebuild-able C-can or Mini can motor would likely offer more speed and better handling, it's hard to deny that the venerable Group 10 style 16D is a rugged and dependable first step into the world of opening motors up.

Well, that's really not about the 16D in particular.  A plain-jane C motor is just as rugged and reliable.  With equal arms (same wind/timing), there's really no reason why a C should be any less reliable or rugged.  The C motor car would probably handle better (of course, the chassis matters a LOT...sometimes some weight is a good thing), but would probably be only marginally faster on a straight because of less weight.


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#14 wicked01

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 09:30 PM

John , what coating do you use on the cans?


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#15 Dallas Racer

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 11:46 PM

Parma is the reason D motors have lasted.

As long as they were their basic RTR motor, they were dominant in the market, because Parma RTRs were the basic car of choice in most Raceways.

Now that Parma has let their version die, there's hope that all versions will die, getting rid of something that was always unsuited for serious racing compared to C can motors.

The same thing applies to C cans now that F sized motors, both sealed and unsealed, are available.

If anyone has the money to waste on a Hobby that's been dead for 50 years (joke, eh), it would be nice to have an F can motor of the same quality as the C.

 

The most fun I had racing slot cars was racing 4" flexi NASCAR with Parma 16D Deathstars and 4" flexi GT with Parma Super 16Ds back in early 2K. These classes were quite popular at our local track in Plano and we had great turnouts on race days. The motors ran forever making for affordable racing.

 

I think it was great racing. What difference does the motor make as long as everyone has to run the same thing?


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#16 havlicek

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 05:58 AM

John , what coating do you use on the cans?

 

 

Lately, I've been using the VHT Engine Enamel.  Some of the colors have a weird finish, but most cure hard, smooth and have a good gloss,  This one is a "wrinkle black", made by PJ1.  I've had mixed results with various wrinkle black paints...some wrinkle in spots and not in others (!?), some wrinkle sometimes and not others (!!??).  It depends both on how heavy you spray and how you warm/cure the paint...freaky.  This one seems to work OK for me...wrinkling more or less depending on how heavy the coating is.  I've mostly ditched the regular Rustoleum and similar paints, they look nice but don't get hard enough in most cases EXCEPT for the Rustoleum "textured black".  That stuff is dead-easy to use, produces a really nice finely textured finish and is really durable!  

 

 

The most fun I had racing slot cars was racing 4" flexi NASCAR with Parma 16D Deathstars and 4" flexi GT with Parma Super 16Ds back in early 2K. These classes were quite popular at our local track in Plano and we had great turnouts on race days. The motors ran forever making for affordable racing.

 

I think it was great racing. What difference does the motor make as long as everyone has to run the same thing?

See...that's great and I love to hear about racing classes that work...inexpensive, reliable and fun racing will bring people back to the track!  Still, that could have easily been the same experience with C motors, so really doesn't answer the question.  What kind of motor doesn't "make a difference" at all, as long as it does the same thing!  The track owners and rules-makers really get to decide these issues, and when they make the right decisions, you have fun racing.  The question I have is, if there are other motors that can serve the same purpose in exactly the same way, but also have advantages, why does the one without those advantages still get used?  Now...the old Mabuchi FT16D motors I "get".  Rebuilding vintage cars and motors and then getting to enjoy running them again has both craft and nostalgia benefits.  This is a great discussion, and it's neat to hear all the points of view and experiences!

 

-john


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