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Question for the IRRA® BoD


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#1 Rick

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 05:17 PM

I have come upon some full hard brass, tin plated. Would that be objected to in your organization? For chassis use.


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#2 tonyp

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 05:46 PM

In my opinion it would not be legal. We already went through this with the silver brass pieces Chicagoland made several years ago. One other thing the tech inspector would have to check and no way to be sure it is actually brass under plating and not bronze which would be much better than brass in certain designs.


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#3 Samiam

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:16 PM

Just punch out some vintage re-pop stuff with it. Pans, drop arms, etc. 


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#4 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 07:56 PM

We went through a similar thing out here at BPR when I came across some nickel plated phosphor bronze sheet that was almost like spring steel. The phosphor bronze is much more orange in color than brass and not legal.

 

Maybe you could grind off the plating, Rick, as it might be very thin and a 320 grit 3" sanding disc with a high speed grinder might do the job...


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#5 Rick

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 08:12 PM

Yes, Brian, the plating is very thin, prob .0002, It took most of it off on the Backatcha piece on one side by tumbling the pieces. You can see the brass on the edges where the laser cut it and this shop is ISO certified so every bit of material has the certs to back it up...


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#6 idare2bdul

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 10:47 PM

Sigh, where are the hard fought conflicts of old. Fortunately dead and buried. The funny part for me is that back in the days of our misspent youth we built because you couldn't buy a competitive chassis or motor over the counter. Now we have to protect our retro chassis from the fast cheap products that are readily available. There is also the assumption(probably valid) that is ok to have home built chassis legal( even if built by local pro's) but that motor building would be bad for the sport. I guess there were always more chassis builders than motor builders and todays cheap sealed motors make a pretty good argument for their use.

Still it might be fun to have an ARCO rules race possibly using D cans.


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#7 Samiam

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:30 PM

I see this thread has drifted  to the age old debate of  " Built vs Sealed "  motors. But I'll take the bait.

 

I will race in Mike's ARCO race.. But let me warn you. I'll be sporting this 'ole 16-D:

http://slotblog.net/...-well-champion/

 

Or one just like it. :dance3:


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#8 Rick

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:48 AM

It has not drifted, it was just ignored. But the doubt was instilled, maybe he's trying to sneak bronze in. It is tin plated BRASS, full hard. The full hard was the important part! ...............


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#9 Samiam

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 06:39 AM

Rick,

How thick is this FHB ( Full hard brass) ?

 

I would think the parts can be bottom sanded rather easily. This would make it very plain to the inspector what it is.


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#10 Cheater

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:30 AM

It has not drifted, it was just ignored.


No, the question is not being ignored. With five members on the IRRA BoD, there is often a lot of discussion so instantaneous answers are not always possible.

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#11 Noose

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:47 AM

And one is trying to get away from a hurricane.

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#12 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:38 AM

It has not drifted, it was just ignored. But the doubt was instilled, maybe he's trying to sneak bronze in. It is tin plated BRASS, full hard. The full hard was the important part!...


First, I give props to Rick for asking. 99% would have just used the brass as it is just brass to most of us.
 
There is a chassis kit that used what Rick is inquiring about, but not sure if they are still being offered. I have one and it was part of my materials that I submitted to the lab when I wanted to understand the properties a little better.
 
The terms "hard brass" and "full hard brass" are being used loosely here. By what I have seen Rick post on Facebook and here I would say that if the technology was around during the era it should be legal because it is not "hard brass." It is simply hardened by the coating and not the molecular build up of the brass. While completely different process, it is similar to hard anodizing to where it increases surface resistance which translates to the psi numbers. Not sure if what he has falls into a beta classification category.
 
in general the hardness comes from the ratio between the brass and zinc. The higher percentage of zinc, the harder the brass. Beta brasses are typically the hardest with Rockwell ratings of H04 and H06 if you are really looking for true full hard brass. Another method of hardening brass that would in my opinion be completely legal is through annealing. This is an easy process that can double the psi and tensile rating of almost any malleable material. Now that being said there is hard brass that also consists of bronze and that is where the "ooohhhh scary" concern is. Like many things how will the average person be able to tell just what the hell is being used.
 
Why would I offer this info up? There has been a lot of hoopla over something that at least for those involved have not been tested yet. It is a one and done bend in an accident and it has no memory. It acts like a stainless material with a hard shell and soft center. The reason of concern with bending it at a 90 and the coating is that typically the coating will not conform when stretched while making the bend and cracks. As Rick has shown there are ways around it. Additionally the real question is if there is a benefit to using hard brass? Sure it is more durable, but you reduce the ability to straighten it out mid-race. Hard or not, it still bends (keep your mind out of the gutter).
 
I would assume the time to look at all this and what it does to the future of materials used is what the BoD is looking at.
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#13 MSwiss

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:01 AM

By what I have seen Rick post on Facebook and here I would say that if the technology was around during the era it should be legal because it is not "hard brass".


The technology being around back in the day has nothing to do with IRRA® deeming something legal or illegal.

I'm glad Rick brought this up.

The IRRA® has been due to tighten up the rules involving plating brass and allowing nickel silver brass.


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#14 Bill from NH

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:05 AM

"Full Hard Brass" chassis parts in the '70s were neither plated nor coated with something.else.  Are you using the term "hard brass" today to describe a product such as "printers brass"? Not too common, but it's still around.


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#15 Rick

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:24 AM

The plating has nothing to do with the hardness, it is tin. Think of solder. The brass under the plating is full hard. This was a special order of material probably because of its electrical qualities for the function intended. My laser dood, told me he has some left over. Simple as that. But would be a plus for chassis function because of being full hard.

 

Here is a pic of the backatcha that tumbling removed all the plating. I guess I could just extend tumbling process and remove it all and end the discussion, but thought the thin coating would stay good looking and easy to solder to.

 

Bottom of backatcha.jpg

 

coated DS.jpg


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#16 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:40 AM

My misunderstanding as on a Facebook post I though you stated it had a hard coating.
 
So it more than likely has 50-55% zinc. As long as there is no bronze I guess I do not see the issue.
 
If we are allowed to paint the chassis, coatings should not be a concern.

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#17 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:55 AM

You never know that stuff may have already been used. With the tin plating removed you would never know the difference. Better buy a hardness tester fast. LMAO. Its brass not silver nickel brass.

 

GVP.


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#18 MSwiss

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:04 PM

GVP,

 

Why are you assuming we will need a hardness tester or have ruled against Rick's piece?

The question is whether we would allow plating or coating.

The above back piece, while the picture isn't great, on my phone, if it's yellow brass, it would be legal.


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#19 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:10 PM

Hardness tester will simply show the hardness, not the material buildup. Many ways to achieve a psi or hardness number through various processes. Being held to a hardness number would be pretty ridiculous as the same 260 material for instance can have as many as 8 different ratings as I have found.


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#20 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:28 PM

Ridiculous is the word I was looking for. Matt.

 

Making rules you can't enforce is crazy. Just like zapping the motors no way to police it. When Mosetti use hard brass in his retro kit there was no issue. Tumble the tin off and there should be no issue. Correct Mike.

 

But what if we plated Silver nickle Brass with yellow Brass. Now there is an idea. I just happen to know a guy who ran plating shops all his life.

 

 

GVP.



#21 Noose

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:32 PM

The question is about plating or coating. Sheesh


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#22 MSwiss

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:37 PM

GVP,
Where do you see either a no zapping, or there is a hardness limit to the brass we allow, in the rules?

Of course, if Rick tumbled off whatever metal his chassis pc. is coated with, and a yellow brass piece remains, it is legal.
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#23 MSwiss

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:57 PM

The question is about plating or coating. Sheesh

Joe,
I think we are supposed to be answering the questions, as if we were on that closed FB page, also. Lol

Mike Swiss
 
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#24 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:13 PM

That's the simple answer I was looking for. Plating off it's legal. Plating on chassis parts not legal. Do I have it correct.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

GVP 



#25 tonyp

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:25 PM

As long as it's yellow brass with no plating, tining, painting etc it would be legal.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#26 Rick

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:28 PM

As long as it's yellow brass with no plating, tining, painting etc it would be legal.

So it is now not just brass , must be yellow brass? Different grades have different hues. I get it. Thanks for your time BoD........


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#27 tonyp

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:49 PM

Standard brass color. Not the red or silver colored stuff. Most all brass is "yellow" color.
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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#28 tonyp

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:52 PM

As long as it's yellow colored brass with no plating, tining, painting with a color ( not clear) etc it would be legal.



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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#29 tonyp

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:52 PM

Corrected post above I typed faster than my brain.
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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
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ip


#30 The Number of

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:46 PM

Is there a simple tatste test available for brass?
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#31 Samiam

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:54 PM

No. You need one of these:

http://alloytester.c...CFYpkhgod_zgG3Q


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#32 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:54 PM

Is there a simple tatste test available for brass?

Tastes like chicken


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#33 Brinkley47

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:50 PM

I want one Rick minus the tin plating :)
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#34 Half Fast

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 05:06 PM

No. You need one of these:

http://alloytester.c...CFYpkhgod_zgG3Q

 Here's a nice used one on Ebay! Cheap too :shok:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...s&ul_noapp=true

 

Cheers


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#35 Tim Neja

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 05:25 PM

Buy two--- their really reasonable!!  :dash2:  :shok:  :laugh2:


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#36 Rick

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:17 PM

Brass is a metal alloy made of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] It is a substitutional alloy: atoms of the two constituents may replace each other within the same crystal structure.

By comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin........


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#37 MSwiss

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:25 PM

What does the above have to do with your original question?

Mike Swiss
 
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#38 Rick

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:40 PM

The topic WAS about plated hard brass. That was "sorta" addressed. The above states what brass is and it may vary. And also the main metals of bronze, which is a different metal alloy, and that was the implication of what my find was. Then color somehow made it into the conversation. The rules have always just stated brass. are you prepared to change the rules wording  just to keep this new material out of the mix? It is brass and just a higher grade of such......


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#39 gc4895

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:41 PM

I think retro only allows brass.
Mark Bauer

#40 MSwiss

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:06 PM

Rick,
Your picture is poor.
How can you expect us to make a ruling based on it?
Does it have the same or a very similar color as other chassis parts, yourself, JK, Duffy, Mossetti, or myself, sell, or have sold?

If it does, you have nothing to worry about.

If it looks like phos bronze or "straight" copper, unless you are willing to supply all the IRRA® tech directors with that $9,999 machine, how could you possibly expect us to OK it?
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#41 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:00 AM

Or you can send it to me and I can use this $40,000 machine instead.

 

a051d3b5-145a-44cc-b468-e67c648ac4ce_zps


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#42 Samiam

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:05 AM

Guillermo

You will have to be deputized as an honorary BoD member.
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#43 The Number of

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:07 AM

I think I will wait for RONCO to come out with their pocket size analyzer. :)
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#44 John Streisguth

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 09:04 AM

If it's just brass, and the coating is so thin it can be removed by tumbling media, wouldn't the easy solution be to just remove the coating before processing into chassis parts?


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#45 MSwiss

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 09:29 AM

John,
If you look through this thread, that solution has been discussed.

There still seems to be some issue, with Rick, that the IRRA® still wants the bare, tumbled piece to look like brass, since everytime a chassis is entered, the tech man won't have a 10K analyser.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#46 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 10:54 AM

Will there be an amendment to the rules regarding coatings? As of right now there is zero verbiage (other than in this thread) on coatings, painting, etc. Will there be specifications regarding brass and what is compliant? Nowhere does it state that the chassis material must remain brass in color or even transparent. The rules state brass, but some "brass" would fail should it contain bronze. Some "brass" comes standard with conformal coatings albeit medical, electrical or otherwise. To me if these types of brass meet the molecular build up ratio (copper to zinc) then they should pass. Obviously this should be simple, but now we have to look at it how the rules are written.

 

Before I scrap $4K worth of brass and a boatload of wasted time, this would be helpful to know.

 

If this is really where we are at, I think the following should be added and clarified -

 

1) Coatings (yes or no). If so a coating is a coating regardless if it is a paint or chemical process, allow one you allow all. Transparent and opaque both compliant?

 

2) A numeral specification as to the percentage of copper and zinc allowed. This ratio changes the category of which some brasses are classified in.


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#47 John Streisguth

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 10:55 AM

Yup... just had to ask what might be a dumb question, given how far the "analysis" drift has gone.


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#48 Rick

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 10:29 PM

The jury has reconvened. Just to make it as simple as can be, the material is basically copper, zinc would be trace. Think of soft copper tubing vs hard copper pipe as an example. Being that no where does it state copper is an approved material, I will dump the project...


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#49 Half Fast

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 08:32 AM

Rick-

 

Your integrity does you credit :good:

 

Cheers


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#50 Brinkley47

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 09:16 AM

The jury has reconvened. Just to make it as simple as can be, the material is basically copper, zinc would be trace. Think of soft copper tubing vs hard copper pipe as an example. Being that no where does it state copper is an approved material, I will dump the project...

 

So it was not full hard brass?


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