Jump to content




Photo

Chassis material rules update and clarification


  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#1 IRRAź Retro Racing

IRRAź Retro Racing

    Official Spokesman

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 257 posts
  • Joined: 17-November 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 October 2016 - 02:09 PM

As of today, the relevant sections of the IRRA® rules have been amended to read as shown below:
 
Chassis Materials:
The following materials are permitted for use in chassis construction:
 
Brass – sheet, rod, and tube. Brass is defined as generic "yellow brass" containing copper and zinc, with minimal amounts of tin and lead, yellowish in color, non-plated, non-painted, non-coated (except for clear coating to prevent rust). Nickel/German "silver" alloys are not allowed.
Bronze – rod.
Steel – wire, pin tubing, and commercial guide tongues and guide tongue braces/doublers.
 
No other materials are allowed. Chassis parts, such as pans, brackets, guide tongues, etc., that are made using EDM, laser, or water-cutting techniques are allowed only if they are individual commercially-available components or components of chassis kits (i.e. these techniques may not be used in the private manufacture of one-off components that are not commercially-available). Materials such as printed circuit boards or composites such as carbon fiber are not allowed.

 

This revised section will be incorporated into the 2017 IRRA® rules to be released in the coming months. 

 

(Posted for the IRRA® Board by Mike Swiss)


  • The Number of likes this

IRRA® Board of Directors: Mike McMasters, Joe Neumeister, Tony Przybylowicz, Mike Swiss, Greg Wells





#2 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 07 October 2016 - 02:31 PM

So all I have to do is say that my brass is coated to prevent oxidation since there is no specification on what type of coating can be used. If it is transparent, then it is "clear coated."


Matt Sheldon

#3 Zippity

Zippity

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,657 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 07 October 2016 - 03:59 PM

Armature dye makes for a good protection coating :)


Ron Thornton
 

 


#4 Greg VanPeenen

Greg VanPeenen

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: 26-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MI

Posted 07 October 2016 - 05:55 PM

You guys do a great job and are usually on the ball when it comes to rules. But you can not ban coating then allow coating just to allow chassis that have already been clear coated. You need to make rules for everyone. Coating is OK or it's not OK make up your minds. You cannot have it both ways and call yourselves fair.

 

How about you word the rule this way. Coating: Clear coating for corrosion protection ONLY!!! No other plating, painting or coatings will be allowed.

 

While your at it how about this for a new rule. No devices will be allowed that add power to the track. No batteries or power adding devices will be allowed in controllers or attached to controllers.   

 

Regards,

GVP


  • usadar likes this

#5 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,988 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:34 PM

Are you really trying to compare clear paint, which doesn't add strength or impede the tech director, with metal plating, which does the opposite?

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#6 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:17 PM

'(except for clear coating to prevent rust)."

Seems pretty clear(pun intended) to me. As long as what's underneath can be clearly seen , no issues. In other words,no opaque coatings.


By the way ,chrome plating is clear.
Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#7 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,988 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:32 PM

,chrome plating is clear.

But not the Nickel that is typically under it.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#8 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Partial Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,843 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:27 PM

well, imagine that! (gasp).............


  • Frankie Schaffier likes this
Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...

#9 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:29 PM

Plating of anything is prohibited. I just threw that in to stir the pot.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#10 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,666 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 08 October 2016 - 07:12 PM

You can't put enough plating on the brass to make it stronger. Harder, yes. Increasing the strength of the material, no.

 

Oh, if you guys are speaking to LAMINATING or CLADDING... yes, then that's a different subject.


Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#11 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Partial Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,843 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 08 October 2016 - 10:50 PM

 When I addressed the subject about the full hard, coated brass, the rules stated brass as an accepted material to use. The coating was in question. I did have F1 plates plated a few years ago and it was permitted, at the time and I did sell those pieces. It was a limited run. I will go along with the coating, that is why I asked. But the new wordage that has been added if after the fact, of the written rule at the time of question/submission and should  not be applied to this cache if material. It is a limited supply and will not be re-ordered again from my supplier and I am not going to pay the price it would cost today. The plus is it is full hard brass. It is not bronze, it is copper and zinc, copper and tin.............


Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...

#12 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,988 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 October 2016 - 10:02 AM

Does it look like brass or does it look like bronze?

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#13 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Partial Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,843 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 09 October 2016 - 10:56 AM

What does bronze look like? I have never had any to view....


Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...

#14 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,988 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 October 2016 - 11:45 AM

You've never had a Koford or Red Fox guide washer in your sight or possession?

But that's the point of the rule.

If there is brass that looks like phos bronze, once we allow it, we have no way of knowing if what is presented for tech, is that particular brass or phos bronze.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#15 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Partial Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,843 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 09 October 2016 - 12:00 PM

What are you implying?....


Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...

#16 Jay Guard

Jay Guard

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,322 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:DeLand, FL

Posted 09 October 2016 - 12:16 PM

Rick:

Bronze (mainly copper and tin) is a reddish color while brass (mainly copper and zinc) tends to be yellowish.  I use the terms reddish and yellowish because there are a ton of copper alloys with colors ranging from nearly silver to a deep red.  The whole intent of what the BoD is trying to do is to specify the more commonly available alloys (i.e. yellow brass) as opposed to the higher tech versions.  If they allowed plating the tech inspectors couldn't tell what kind of material was being used.  A true clear coat won't change the color so that is being allowed so the chassis doesn't tarnish.

 

As far as hardness is concerned they aren't trying to control that as it would be nearly impossible for the tech guy to check accurately considering the thickness of the chassis material and the need for a hardness tester.

 

Finally to quote a (in)famous slot car racer, "Why make it harder than it has to be?"


  • tonyp likes this

Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


#17 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 09 October 2016 - 12:51 PM

The coating that we have on our new run of parts is an electrical conformal coating for oxidation protection. It is not a plating and is transparent as to where the color of the brass looks like everyone elses. Why again I feel that as long as it is transparent, a coating is a coating. The type of coating is not being called out. Could be elastomeric based, chemical, electro elastomeric, yada, yada.

 

I can tell you that a 260 brass with 2-3% bronze content cannot be detected with the naked eye, however you put an oily thumb print on it and you will see it in a couple weeks. Going through invoices shows that Duffy had at least 2 batches of the stuff made.


Matt Sheldon

#18 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Partial Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,843 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 09 October 2016 - 12:59 PM

Zackly Jay. The addition of zinc or tin makes up the difference of what is bronze and what is brass, There is also yellow bronze, but the common color is brown. The amount of copper designates the hue of brass and the strength, is doesn't magically make brass into bronze. I am certain you have heard the term yellow brass and red brass? Both are brass! There are many alloys of "yellow" brass, and they have a wide range on price, which is the correct one to use? If one can offer a superior product for a similar price it is better for the consumer.......


Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...

#19 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,666 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 09 October 2016 - 01:03 PM

There are bronzes that look just like "brass" and brasses that look just like "bronze". No one in IRRA is qualified to make the distinction. I suggest you guys invest in one of these, X-Ray Metal Identifier , if it's such a problem.

 

(edit)

 

One more thing: the different aloys of copper can be chemically treated to look yellow or red, similar to the process of bluing steel for guns. So, how are you going to regulate that?

 

BTW, was this such a problem that it required a rule change/clarification? All these metals were available in in 1969.... :laugh2:


Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#20 Jay Guard

Jay Guard

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,322 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:DeLand, FL

Posted 09 October 2016 - 01:24 PM

Hi Matt:

There really isn't any "bronze" in 260 cartridge brass, doesn't even have any tin it.  However you are correct that if a brass alloy has only a small percentage of tin it (which some do) it probably can't be detected by eye.  I think the whole point is that if it still looks like "yellow" brass it's OK to use.  IMO this rule change is a realistic answer to the acceptable materials question.


  • MSwiss and tonyp like this

Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


#21 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,988 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 October 2016 - 01:42 PM

BTW, was this such a problem that it required a rule change/clarification? All these metals were available in in 1969.... :laugh2:

One more time Phil.

The rules aren't based on what what was available in 1969 or we wouldn't be racing FK motors with Neo magnets, fish rubber tires, and electronic controllers.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#22 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 09 October 2016 - 01:55 PM

Hi Matt:

There really isn't any "bronze" in 260 cartridge brass, doesn't even have any tin it.  However you are correct that if a brass alloy has only a small percentage of tin it (which some do) it probably can't be detected by eye.  I think the whole point is that if it still looks like "yellow" brass it's OK to use.  IMO this rule change is a realistic answer to the acceptable materials question.

I will forward you some materials test results and call out forms.

 

And no it is not stated that it only has to "look" like yellow brass. That would really leave the door open to getting creative.

 

The way the rules are stated my new kits pass (minus the black kits). I will submit some samples to the BOD prior to release.


Matt Sheldon

#23 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,988 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 October 2016 - 02:28 PM

If there is brass that looks like phos bronze, once we allow it, we have no way of knowing if what is presented for tech, is that particular brass or phos bronze.

 
 

What are you implying?....

I thought my above statement is clear, but if you need more detail;
 
If your material looks like phos bronze, despite your ISO certified supplier saying it's just brass, and the IRRA®'s ability, if we wished, to send it to Guillermo Suar, to confirm as such with the $40K machine he has access to, all that does, is confirm that pc. is brass.
 
It would leave anyone else to walk up to the tech line with material that looks the same. We can't hold up the race, each time, to send that particular chassis to Guillermo, for verification.
 

Rick:
Bronze (mainly copper and tin) is a reddish color while brass (mainly copper and zinc) tends to be yellowish.  I use the terms reddish and yellowish because there are a ton of copper alloys with colors ranging from nearly silver to a deep red.  The whole intent of what the BoD is trying to do is to specify the more commonly available alloys (i.e. yellow brass) as opposed to the higher tech versions.  If they allowed plating the tech inspectors couldn't tell what kind of material was being used.  A true clear coat won't change the color so that is being allowed so the chassis doesn't tarnish.
 
As far as hardness is concerned they aren't trying to control that as it would be nearly impossible for the tech guy to check accurately considering the thickness of the chassis material and the need for a hardness tester.
 
Finally to quote a (in)famous slot car racer, "Why make it harder than it has to be?"

Zackly.
 
Good post and sums it up, especially the "Why make it harder than it has to be?" passage.
 

There are bronzes that look just like "brass" and brasses that look just like "bronze". No one in IRRA is qualified to make the distinction. I suggest you guys invest in one of these, X-Ray Metal Identifier , if it's such a problem.

The problem has been solved with the new rule.
 
 
The timing of this ruling has nothing to do with Rick finding a supply of "full hard brass".
 
It has to do with C770 Nickel Brass finding it's way to the tech line at the Sano.
 
Five, or more, years ago, after I placed an order with my brass chassis vendor, Geary Gaspord/Backtrack.
 
He shipped me about 6 pcs. of a Brackagra bracket brace/weight, made from that Nickel Brass.
 
I called him, unhappy.
 
He assured me it was brass, and sent me the link to the material.
 
I told him, I get it, but it's just something I didn't want to press/perpetuate, and to not ship me any more parts with it.
 
I filled a few orders with it, and then brought up a conversation with the BOD and explained how I  thought it was a bad idea to continue to make parts with it and assured them it would not continue.
 
One the entrants at the Sano presented a car at tech with C770 Nickel Brass.
 
When checking the rules after the race, it was discovered we didn't have anything in the rules stating it was illegal.
 
Hence, the reason for the update with the additional elements to make the tech director job a realistic one.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#24 tonyp

tonyp

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,008 posts
  • Joined: 12-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sanford, FL, land of lizards and big roaches

Posted 09 October 2016 - 02:40 PM

Jay has built a Bronze chassis and I was going to and had the material before the original board told us it was not legal as it was not brass. Really easy to tell by the color. That's why red brass will not be legal it's too hard to tell apart in the tech line. By keeping it normal yellow brass colors there is no problem for the tech inspector.
  • MSwiss and Tim Neja like this

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#25 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 09 October 2016 - 02:50 PM

I can tell you that a 260 brass with 2-3% bronze content cannot be detected with the naked eye, however you put an oily thumb print on it and you will see it in a couple weeks. Going through invoices shows that Duffy had at least 2 batches of the stuff made.

I can tell you guys when Duffy described his chassis parts, he told me  " It's made from the " Good stuff " .


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)





Electric Dreams Online Shop