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#1 havlicek

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 05:48 AM

Taking inspiration from Mike and his neat-o strap motor, I went looking for something I remembered I had.  So I rummaged around my box-o'-stuff and found this setup.  Looks like the can is machined from a billet, and the end bell (along with the can) had gobs of corrosion.  Instead of spending time cleaning the old end bell hardware, I stuck on some Koford stuff just to get an idea of where I'm at.  The can sort of fits a C end bell, although some measurements reveal that a C end bell slightly spreads the can sides by a few thousandths.  Installing a shaft while a C end bell is on there also reveals some misalignment, since the shaft is lightly bound.  When I install the original end bell, the shaft passes through the can and end bell perfectly.  So, even though I am sure I could make a C end bell work, I'd like to keep the original end bell...or a plastic equivalent if there is one that won't require fiddling.  ***The thing is, with both the original hardware, as well as the Koford stuff, I'm sure I'm missing some sort of insulators because the end bell registers a dead short.  The original end bell hardware had some thin brass strips under each side...short.  The Koford stuff came with some similar-looking strips, dead-short also.  So, what's the deal here?  Can I get something to insulate the hardware and/or is there a plastic end bell that will fit?

Oh and, a "regular" set of C ceramic magnets (*somewhere just under .150" thick) gives me a hole of around .517", which is certainly doable with a finished arm OD of anywhere from .495" to .500".

IMG_1761%20copy_zpsfgxtmmyd.jpg
 
The rust/corrosion was pretty heavy.  I got a good chunk of it off, but there's more to do.  I wanted to get it at least clean enough for someone to let me know what this thing is, what's the deal with the end bell insulation and/or what is available that might fit.
 
-john
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#2 Samiam

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:18 AM

John,

Was the endbell corroded and did you clean it ? I was told a non conductive anodize was used on metal endbells. This might be gone now. 

 

What wind will you be doing? 38t/#27 ?


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#3 tonyp

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:56 AM

The aluminum end bells were hard anodized which insulated them.
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#4 Geary Carrier

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:06 AM

Hi John,

 

Try a piece of your Kapton tape under each side of the brush holders and then check for shorts.

 

Is the endbell a short before the brush holders are installed?

 

 

Thanks,

g


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#5 zipper

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:09 AM

But the early versions in '90s (lots of experience with Koford) were fragile - those teflon (?) insulators were prone to splitting/collapsing and a dead short was always lurking . And the brushes riding straight on the anodized surface on the first setups didn't help - quickly that was fixed with a strip under the brushes. Rebuilding a motor always required to check the endbell first to exclude shorts.


Pekka Sippola

#6 SlotStox#53

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:39 AM

Very stout looking can! Good luck getting it all sorted & look forward to seeing it all buttoned up :D

#7 S.O. Watt

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 11:51 AM

I *think* that is a Swedish made can from the mid/late '80s. I don't remember the name.

 

Assuming the anodize is not scratched/missing on the endbell, you will need 4 little teflon washers, one under each screw head, to isolate/insulate the hardware. These washers were made out of teflon sleeving cut very short,  and fit over the 0/80 screws which are a flat head. I believe I still have a bunch. The spring cups were also anodized by some manufacturers to help insulate .


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#8 Mbloes

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 03:03 PM

Ok everybody has commented on the short but what about the can itself?

 

When I was racing - late 80's to mid 90's, there were 4 primary classes - Open, G27, International 15 and Box Stock 15.  Open/G27 ran cans like mine, Box 15 ran a 2 hole-type Mura C can and Int'l 15 ran a modified C can.  This appears to be an Int'l 15 can.

 

I believe they had to keep C can dimensions but, otherwise, could be heavily modified.  That's why your stock plastic C can endbell is a close fit.

 

15.jpg

 

15-2.jpg

 

PS: Not my motor or photos - ripped from ebay.


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#9 havlicek

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:12 PM

Makes sense to me Mike.  I have to scare up some parts and get this bad boy together.
 

Assuming the anodize is not scratched/missing on the endbell, you will need 4 little teflon washers, one under each screw head, to isolate/insulate the hardware.

 
Looks like there's no anodizing on there at all.
 

What wind will you be doing? 38t/#27 ?

 
Maybe, but maybe a little warmer, too!
 
-john


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#10 S.O. Watt

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 07:37 PM

I've used a hi-temp insulating tape before quite successfully when I had bare spots develop. I applied a piece covering the whole endbell surface area of the brush hood area then mounted the hood with the insulating washers, worked fine. The tape I have is slick surfaced, brownish in colour, and has woven filaments that can be seen in it. The brush rides on it and slides quite well. It may or may not be Kapton, but I'm thinking it is as it came from Boeing Surplus years ago.
 

Looks like there's no anodizing on there at all.


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#11 mjsh

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:42 PM

Hey Tom,

 

      Wasn't that an RL set up?   Rolf Lundberg?


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#12 Car-2

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 11:29 PM

Check Youtube there is lots of videos on how to anodize at home. Even some with dye techniques.


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#13 S.O. Watt

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 12:17 AM

Bingo!

 

Hey Tom,

 

      Wasn't that an RL set up?   Rolf Lundberg?


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#14 zipper

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 04:35 AM

He did milled cans and characteristically the bearing must be seated from the inside and bearing has that housing. But that one is older than what I have, my setups are from about 1995 and on, quad mags etc.


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#15 havlicek

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:57 AM

Thanks for the info Pekka and the rest!  It appears that the short is happening at the hardware screws.  Perhaps inside the threaded holes or the screws themselves are the problem.  If so, just putting a non-conductive barrier between the hoods and the end bell aren't going to work here.  The end bell itself *seems* to have it's anodizing in tact (?) as I get no continuity on the end bell itself.  It must be a clear coating?  In any case, If I can't source the right stuff, I guess I'll just make a C can end bell work, seems as though a ProSlot type, with it's bottom clearance cut will be a close match.  Shame, I'd like to get this old girl spinning again in her original prom gown :)

This Rolf Lundberg guy (if he milled the can) did a really nice job here.  The can isn't just nicely milled, but it's surprisingly strong, so he must have used a fairly hard grade steel.  The stuff modern folded cans are made from is way softer...so hat's off to Mr Lundberg!  I'll play around with an end bell later and after that look at getting a set of magnets glued in there.  A regular plain-jane set of ceramics would get me to at least #27 territory even in a strap type can.  Of course, I could also go for a set of cobalts, but the whole idea of keeping this project's budget down in to "normal" levels would go out the window.  Maybe I'll swap-in a bearing as well.

 

-john


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#16 wbugenis

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:21 AM

On aluminum endbels, a trick that sometimes works is to produce an arc at the point where the

anodizing is faulty.  The arc will cause the aluminum to oxidize,which is what that type of anodizing is

and become non-conductive.  Try hooking up your com welder (battery charger) to the brush hoods and give it a quick jolt.

Don't use a good power supply.

 

Also, reading the online sources for home anodizing, there are two types of anodizing:

type 1 (also called hard anodizing and is black or dark green) and

type 2 (all anodizing with pretty colors is type 2)

Type 2 can be done at home with some battery acid and a power supply. 


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#17 boxerdog

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 08:31 AM

You might check with Dave at Proformance, it looks like he has several different aluminum endbells still in stock. Perhaps one of them will work out? Or would nylon screws work?


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#18 zipper

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:46 AM

The most probable short is from spring cup retaining screws to the cups or skewed bus bars - the teflon washers may be broken or misplaced.


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#19 olescratch

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:47 AM

I thought that I had poste for you to check the screws, must have forgotten to hit the post button cause I don't see the post anywhere?  The screws cut into the plastic, and will eventually cause a short, been there, done that in other cases of this type of mounting hardware onto metal surfaces.   OK I FOUND THE POST!  Take a look at post #19 in the What to do with a crazy H arm?


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#20 S.O. Watt

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:22 AM

The teflon washer goes under the flat screw head into the spring cup isolating the screw from the cup. Camen had machined phenolic spring posts first and latter anodized spring cups. The washers are used to isolate all screws.

Thanks for the info Pekka and the rest!  It appears that the short is happening at the hardware screws.  Perhaps inside the threaded holes or the screws themselves are the problem.  If so, just putting a non-conductive barrier between the hoods and the end bell aren't going to work here.  The end bell itself *seems* to have it's anodizing in tact (?) as I get no continuity on the end bell itself.  It must be a clear coating? 

.

 

-john


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#21 Mbloes

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:56 AM

 Camen had machined phenolic spring posts first  . . .

 

This is what I used in the motor in my post.  You can barely see them in my pic.  Possibly my favorite slot car product ever.

 

Thanks Tom!


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#22 havlicek

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 03:09 PM

Well, the end bell itself is non-conductive for sure.  As I had mentioned, I supposed whatever is on there must be clear, as it's impossible to see it with my less-than-20/20 eyeballs.  

Anyway, I bagged the original end bell and fitted a ProSlot C end bell.  It was kinda finicky to get it right, but it's all good and "plastic, she no gonna short".  Now on the magnets.  As you would expect, a pair of magnets that read around 1200 or better in a closed can, measure a bit under 1000 in this can.  So, I can either go up to #27 or maybe a #26, or look for something stronger but cheap that will leave me with a workable airgap.  ***I really don't want to get into honing the setup if I can avoid it, and these ceramics give me a .522" "hole" which is not bad at all.  So, before I epoxy in the magnets, does anyone have any ideas for inexpensive magnets that would work here for a bit more "oomph"?  Again, the "can" is pretty much in the C ballpark as to size.

 

-john


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#23 old & gray

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:30 PM

Hi John,

My thoughts on Anodize, (my background is as a mechanical design engineer in aerospace). I had to learn many of these lessons the hard way.

 

Clear anodized aluminum can look the same as unanodized and vice versa. Colored Anodize can become an inspection feature.
Unlike other “plating” anodize doesn’t just build up on a part, it penetrates and builds up on the surface nominally in a 50/50 ratio. This can lead to an interesting problem in sizing machined parts since anodizing is done after machining.
Because anodize is an electroplating operation getting good coverage in holes is difficult, the smaller and deeper the more difficult. Screw threads are particularly problematic.
Anodize has been compared to a frozen mud puddle. It is a hard, thin, brittle surface on a relatively soft base. When the surface cracks it leaves sharp edges which are very good at cutting (think aluminum oxide sand paper).

 

In my limited use of aluminum end bell motors, I isolated the screws from the power by having an insulating washer under the screw head and large clearance at the threads. I also isolated the spring cup.


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#24 havlicek

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:56 PM

Neat info Bob...thanks.  I figured I'd go ahead and do the deed with what I have:

Plastic PS end bell...no shorts :)
Ceramic magnets epoxied-in.  With some fiddling, I got it so a .522" magnet slug spins freely the setup, which means I can use an arm as "fat" as .500-.505.  Maybe even fatter to make better use of the magnets having less oomph.

IMG_1763%20copy_zpsdx4fzend.jpg


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#25 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:47 PM

RE Post #8:  That strap is also the early Proslot 'production grp 12' that was adopted in the mid 1990s with can end screw mounts - then it morphed into a short strap - not c-can dimensioned.


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#26 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 07:34 AM

     This will get a little more interesting later today.  I'll press some lams and see what length stack I can get to fit.  When I have something like this and am concerned about a raw stack hitting the magnets and interfering with seeing the arm "center", I use some old smaller OD lams to make a test stack.  .518" raw lams will often produce a stack that's over .518" and here they just might hit the magnets, although I *think* the actual hole must be slightly greater than .522.  Even though the plastic end bell's tower seems about the same height, the metal one has better internal clearance.  If this becomes an issue, then I'll go back and see what sort of stuff can be done to correct the short...I mean, I DO have all sorts of "stuff" and whatnot.  :)  

    For reasons that don't amount to much more than personal reference/"history", I relate more to motors with actual cans...mostly, but then again, I like resurrecting bits and pieces, even if they are from a much more recent time than "the golden age" :D  The saga continues...

 

-john


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#27 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 09:57 AM

OK, so I built a test-stack to see what's what, and it looks like I can fit a stack of at least .426" length in there and still have everything I need.  If I had installed some shorter magnets, as well as using the original end bell, I could have worked up to maybe a .440" long stack, but I would have been crowding things, so I'll use the .426" length as a maximum and maybe go just under that for some insurance.  I'll maybe have to do a few minor mods to the end bell, but no biggie.  In any case, shortening the com isn't much of a help, because that brings the tabs up closer to the underside of the end bell...and a bit longer com isn't a bad thing from the standpoint of heat-dissipation either.  So...I have a plan!  Here's some shots of my "R&D", showing the test arm in the setup, and a clearer shot of what the resultant spacing looks like:

IMG_1765_zpsh5uvrh3k.jpgIMG_1766_zpsfln1fsia.jpg

 

A little testing now, can save a whole boatload of cursing later!

 

-john

 


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#28 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 10:19 AM

Oh and, what i forgot to mention to those who haven't messed around with this stuff.  Any shortening of the stack only results in half that much additional clearance at either the com or the tail ends of the arm.  It sounds like a "duh" kind of thing to say, but suppose I wanted maybe .010" additional clearance at the com.  I would have to shorten the stack by .020" to achieve that without changing anything else.  Since my "maximum" here is a .426" long stack, that would get me to just over a .400" stack.  See how fast things change bigtime with only "little moves"?

 

-john

PS, I was "hoping" for at least a .400" stack in the first place anyway, so I'm good and a .400" stack wouldn't be "stoopid short" for these magnets anyway.


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#29 wbugenis

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 10:30 AM

 " For reasons that don't amount to much more than personal reference/"history", I relate more to motors with actual cans...mostly, but then again, I like resurrecting bits and pieces, even if they are from a much more recent time than "the golden age"  :D  The saga continues..."

 

John,

 

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

I predict more discussions on samarium cobalt magnets and aluminum endbels here in the near future.

 

(That setup was designed for samarium cobalt magnets)

 

What's going to happen to those skills you have been developing when you run out of old motors from the 60's to restore?

 

Current  top end slot racing motors have upwards of 28 tiny cobalt magnet segments in them.

 

Somthing to look forward to.

 

 

Bill


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Posted 15 October 2016 - 11:20 AM

Hi Bill,

 

 

 

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

Hmmm...what am I denying here?  Matter of fact, I'm doing just the opposite and am "owning" my odd preferences!  :)  Still, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if a lot of others weren't similarly-afflicted!
 

 

I predict more discussions on samarium cobalt magnets and aluminum endbels here in the near future.

 

(That setup was designed for samarium cobalt magnets)

 

Well, for sure I understand.  The setup wasn't designed for a plastic end bell either!

 

 

 

What's going to happen to those skills you have been developing when you run out of old motors from the 60's to restore?

 

I'm not at all sure that will happen for as long as I have left.  People still send me their old stuff (*which I really appreciate!) besides whatever is out there for sale.  Still, I guess I would just keep making motors out of "newer" stuff.  There seems to be plenty of people willing and very able to provide for that market.  Doing what I'm doing keeps me from being seen as some sort of "threat", and I like that...not that I care all that much.

 

 

Current  top end slot racing motors have upwards of 28 tiny cobalt magnet segments in them.

 

Somthing to look forward to.

Yep, I'm generally aware of all that, but it's not really a blip on my radar in terms of interest.  I do get occasional inquiries about doing arms for that stuff, and one of those every now and then is fine as a "something different" kind of thing.

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#31 zipper

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 12:24 PM

 

Current  top end slot racing motors have upwards of 28 tiny cobalt magnet segments in them.

 

The latest craziness I've seen is 42....


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#32 olescratch

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 03:35 PM

E-pay always seems to have old rusty lots of motors for sale!!


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#33 havlicek

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:24 PM

Okey dokey then.  I got the arm built and wound with zero issues...like I said, a little "R&D" beforehand pays off.  The stack length here (including the powder coat) is right at .425", which is under my max by only a couple of thousandths.  This little beauty is a #26 that comes in at precisely .073 ohms.  It should be an "entertaining little motor" when built fo' sho'.

IMG_1774_zps27pplilt.jpgIMG_1775_zpsiv57hfb9.jpg

 

...stuck in it's future home, it centers perfectly (I did some end bell mods that wouldn't have been necessary with the original) for better breathing and clearance.

IMG_1773_zpslxlrceu6.jpg

 

I love it when a plan comes together.  Maybe I'll actually get a more modern setup and do one of those (*no worries, the vintage stuff is still where my heart is).

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#34 havlicek

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 08:33 PM

I got the arm back and was anxious to get this motor assembled.  Boy howdy does this thing spin!  I mean, very smooth and spools up and down in a blink.  I didn't have the nerve to give it much more than a few quick blips on the power supply, but I think I really hit the "sweet spot" with a #26 in this setup.  As Mitch Ryder said..."good golly Miss Molly"!  :D

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#35 Kim Lander

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 09:00 PM

John....what kind of power supply do you use?



#36 Taylor Davis

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:54 PM

John I know you already have the motor together but I can just about guarantee the phenolic washers behind the end bell hardware screws are missing need one in each screw. The threads on the end bell are not insulated that's why the short is present. I use aluminum Endbells on all my wing car motors, koford sells the washers in a pack

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#37 havlicek

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 06:56 AM

John....what kind of power supply do you use?

 

Hi Kim,

 

It's an old one I got from Tony P and no longer made.  Very durable and compact, but it won't go lower than 5.5V, so I can run fast motors for longer than a "blip" or two on it.

 

 

 

John I know you already have the motor together but I can just about guarantee the phenolic washers behind the end bell hardware screws are missing need one in each screw. The threads on the end bell are not insulated that's why the short is present. I use aluminum Endbells on all my wing car motors, koford sells the washers in a pack

 

 

Hi Taylor, and I'm sure you're right.  Thanks for the info!

This motor is one of the bigger surprises I've had lately.  Because of the almost total lack of any sort of "can" and ceramic magnets, I wasn't expecting anything at all special out of it, even with a #26 wind in there.  It sounds absolutely ballistic and VERY smooth, but "feels" much more "torquey" than I thought it might.  In the right chassis, it will be tons-o-fun!

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#38 Taylor Davis

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 07:46 AM

Yea maybe next time get some cobalt singles and you will really be impressed :)

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#39 havlicek

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 07:56 AM

I'm sure!  I don't get the call to do this sort of motor often at all, but I have done arms for similar "type" motors.  I forgot the "glamor" shots:
IMG_1829_zps6euqdapu.jpg

 

IMG_1830_zpspvhath1i.jpg

 

 

While it may not be as old as many earlier motors I do, it's a lovely thing alright.  I REALLY like this motor!  I may still see about getting an older strap setup from Alpha and doing one up.

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#40 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 10:19 AM

"Glamor shots" I like that.

 

She is a beauty. 


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#41 havlicek

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 01:46 PM

"Glamor shots" I like that.

 

She is a beauty. 

 

Thanks Eddie!


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