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#1 havlicek

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 05:48 AM

Taking inspiration from Mike and his neat-o strap motor, I went looking for something I remembered I had.  So I rummaged around my box-o'-stuff and found this setup.  Looks like the can is machined from a billet, and the end bell (along with the can) had gobs of corrosion.  Instead of spending time cleaning the old end bell hardware, I stuck on some Koford stuff just to get an idea of where I'm at.  The can sort of fits a C end bell, although some measurements reveal that a C end bell slightly spreads the can sides by a few thousandths.  Installing a shaft while a C end bell is on there also reveals some misalignment, since the shaft is lightly bound.  When I install the original end bell, the shaft passes through the can and end bell perfectly.  So, even though I am sure I could make a C end bell work, I'd like to keep the original end bell...or a plastic equivalent if there is one that won't require fiddling.  ***The thing is, with both the original hardware, as well as the Koford stuff, I'm sure I'm missing some sort of insulators because the end bell registers a dead short.  The original end bell hardware had some thin brass strips under each side...short.  The Koford stuff came with some similar-looking strips, dead-short also.  So, what's the deal here?  Can I get something to insulate the hardware and/or is there a plastic end bell that will fit?

Oh and, a "regular" set of C ceramic magnets (*somewhere just under .150" thick) gives me a hole of around .517", which is certainly doable with a finished arm OD of anywhere from .495" to .500".

IMG_1761%20copy_zpsfgxtmmyd.jpg
 
The rust/corrosion was pretty heavy.  I got a good chunk of it off, but there's more to do.  I wanted to get it at least clean enough for someone to let me know what this thing is, what's the deal with the end bell insulation and/or what is available that might fit.
 
-john
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#2 Samiam

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:18 AM

John,

Was the endbell corroded and did you clean it ? I was told a non conductive anodize was used on metal endbells. This might be gone now. 

 

What wind will you be doing? 38t/#27 ?


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#3 tonyp

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:56 AM

The aluminum end bells were hard anodized which insulated them.
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#4 Geary Carrier

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:06 AM

Hi John,

 

Try a piece of your Kapton tape under each side of the brush holders and then check for shorts.

 

Is the endbell a short before the brush holders are installed?

 

 

Thanks,

g


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#5 zipper

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:09 AM

But the early versions in '90s (lots of experience with Koford) were fragile - those teflon (?) insulators were prone to splitting/collapsing and a dead short was always lurking . And the brushes riding straight on the anodized surface on the first setups didn't help - quickly that was fixed with a strip under the brushes. Rebuilding a motor always required to check the endbell first to exclude shorts.


Pekka Sippola

#6 SlotStox#53

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:39 AM

Very stout looking can! Good luck getting it all sorted & look forward to seeing it all buttoned up :D

#7 S.O. Watt

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 11:51 AM

I *think* that is a Swedish made can from the mid/late '80s. I don't remember the name.

 

Assuming the anodize is not scratched/missing on the endbell, you will need 4 little teflon washers, one under each screw head, to isolate/insulate the hardware. These washers were made out of teflon sleeving cut very short,  and fit over the 0/80 screws which are a flat head. I believe I still have a bunch. The spring cups were also anodized by some manufacturers to help insulate .


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#8 Mbloes

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 03:03 PM

Ok everybody has commented on the short but what about the can itself?

 

When I was racing - late 80's to mid 90's, there were 4 primary classes - Open, G27, International 15 and Box Stock 15.  Open/G27 ran cans like mine, Box 15 ran a 2 hole-type Mura C can and Int'l 15 ran a modified C can.  This appears to be an Int'l 15 can.

 

I believe they had to keep C can dimensions but, otherwise, could be heavily modified.  That's why your stock plastic C can endbell is a close fit.

 

15.jpg

 

15-2.jpg

 

PS: Not my motor or photos - ripped from ebay.


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#9 havlicek

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:12 PM

Makes sense to me Mike.  I have to scare up some parts and get this bad boy together.
 

Assuming the anodize is not scratched/missing on the endbell, you will need 4 little teflon washers, one under each screw head, to isolate/insulate the hardware.

 
Looks like there's no anodizing on there at all.
 

What wind will you be doing? 38t/#27 ?

 
Maybe, but maybe a little warmer, too!
 
-john


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#10 S.O. Watt

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 07:37 PM

I've used a hi-temp insulating tape before quite successfully when I had bare spots develop. I applied a piece covering the whole endbell surface area of the brush hood area then mounted the hood with the insulating washers, worked fine. The tape I have is slick surfaced, brownish in colour, and has woven filaments that can be seen in it. The brush rides on it and slides quite well. It may or may not be Kapton, but I'm thinking it is as it came from Boeing Surplus years ago.
 

Looks like there's no anodizing on there at all.


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#11 mjsh

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:42 PM

Hey Tom,

 

      Wasn't that an RL set up?   Rolf Lundberg?


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#12 Car-2

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 11:29 PM

Check Youtube there is lots of videos on how to anodize at home. Even some with dye techniques.


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#13 S.O. Watt

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 12:17 AM

Bingo!

 

Hey Tom,

 

      Wasn't that an RL set up?   Rolf Lundberg?


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#14 zipper

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 04:35 AM

He did milled cans and characteristically the bearing must be seated from the inside and bearing has that housing. But that one is older than what I have, my setups are from about 1995 and on, quad mags etc.


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#15 havlicek

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:57 AM

Thanks for the info Pekka and the rest!  It appears that the short is happening at the hardware screws.  Perhaps inside the threaded holes or the screws themselves are the problem.  If so, just putting a non-conductive barrier between the hoods and the end bell aren't going to work here.  The end bell itself *seems* to have it's anodizing in tact (?) as I get no continuity on the end bell itself.  It must be a clear coating?  In any case, If I can't source the right stuff, I guess I'll just make a C can end bell work, seems as though a ProSlot type, with it's bottom clearance cut will be a close match.  Shame, I'd like to get this old girl spinning again in her original prom gown :)

This Rolf Lundberg guy (if he milled the can) did a really nice job here.  The can isn't just nicely milled, but it's surprisingly strong, so he must have used a fairly hard grade steel.  The stuff modern folded cans are made from is way softer...so hat's off to Mr Lundberg!  I'll play around with an end bell later and after that look at getting a set of magnets glued in there.  A regular plain-jane set of ceramics would get me to at least #27 territory even in a strap type can.  Of course, I could also go for a set of cobalts, but the whole idea of keeping this project's budget down in to "normal" levels would go out the window.  Maybe I'll swap-in a bearing as well.

 

-john


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#16 wbugenis

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:21 AM

On aluminum endbels, a trick that sometimes works is to produce an arc at the point where the

anodizing is faulty.  The arc will cause the aluminum to oxidize,which is what that type of anodizing is

and become non-conductive.  Try hooking up your com welder (battery charger) to the brush hoods and give it a quick jolt.

Don't use a good power supply.

 

Also, reading the online sources for home anodizing, there are two types of anodizing:

type 1 (also called hard anodizing and is black or dark green) and

type 2 (all anodizing with pretty colors is type 2)

Type 2 can be done at home with some battery acid and a power supply. 


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#17 boxerdog

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 08:31 AM

You might check with Dave at Proformance, it looks like he has several different aluminum endbells still in stock. Perhaps one of them will work out? Or would nylon screws work?


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#18 zipper

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:46 AM

The most probable short is from spring cup retaining screws to the cups or skewed bus bars - the teflon washers may be broken or misplaced.


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#19 olescratch

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:47 AM

I thought that I had poste for you to check the screws, must have forgotten to hit the post button cause I don't see the post anywhere?  The screws cut into the plastic, and will eventually cause a short, been there, done that in other cases of this type of mounting hardware onto metal surfaces.   OK I FOUND THE POST!  Take a look at post #19 in the What to do with a crazy H arm?


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#20 S.O. Watt

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:22 AM

The teflon washer goes under the flat screw head into the spring cup isolating the screw from the cup. Camen had machined phenolic spring posts first and latter anodized spring cups. The washers are used to isolate all screws.

Thanks for the info Pekka and the rest!  It appears that the short is happening at the hardware screws.  Perhaps inside the threaded holes or the screws themselves are the problem.  If so, just putting a non-conductive barrier between the hoods and the end bell aren't going to work here.  The end bell itself *seems* to have it's anodizing in tact (?) as I get no continuity on the end bell itself.  It must be a clear coating? 

.

 

-john


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#21 Mbloes

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:56 AM

 Camen had machined phenolic spring posts first  . . .

 

This is what I used in the motor in my post.  You can barely see them in my pic.  Possibly my favorite slot car product ever.

 

Thanks Tom!


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#22 havlicek

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 03:09 PM

Well, the end bell itself is non-conductive for sure.  As I had mentioned, I supposed whatever is on there must be clear, as it's impossible to see it with my less-than-20/20 eyeballs.  

Anyway, I bagged the original end bell and fitted a ProSlot C end bell.  It was kinda finicky to get it right, but it's all good and "plastic, she no gonna short".  Now on the magnets.  As you would expect, a pair of magnets that read around 1200 or better in a closed can, measure a bit under 1000 in this can.  So, I can either go up to #27 or maybe a #26, or look for something stronger but cheap that will leave me with a workable airgap.  ***I really don't want to get into honing the setup if I can avoid it, and these ceramics give me a .522" "hole" which is not bad at all.  So, before I epoxy in the magnets, does anyone have any ideas for inexpensive magnets that would work here for a bit more "oomph"?  Again, the "can" is pretty much in the C ballpark as to size.

 

-john


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#23 old & gray

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:30 PM

Hi John,

My thoughts on Anodize, (my background is as a mechanical design engineer in aerospace). I had to learn many of these lessons the hard way.

 

Clear anodized aluminum can look the same as unanodized and vice versa. Colored Anodize can become an inspection feature.
Unlike other “plating” anodize doesn’t just build up on a part, it penetrates and builds up on the surface nominally in a 50/50 ratio. This can lead to an interesting problem in sizing machined parts since anodizing is done after machining.
Because anodize is an electroplating operation getting good coverage in holes is difficult, the smaller and deeper the more difficult. Screw threads are particularly problematic.
Anodize has been compared to a frozen mud puddle. It is a hard, thin, brittle surface on a relatively soft base. When the surface cracks it leaves sharp edges which are very good at cutting (think aluminum oxide sand paper).

 

In my limited use of aluminum end bell motors, I isolated the screws from the power by having an insulating washer under the screw head and large clearance at the threads. I also isolated the spring cup.


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#24 havlicek

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:56 PM

Neat info Bob...thanks.  I figured I'd go ahead and do the deed with what I have:

Plastic PS end bell...no shorts :)
Ceramic magnets epoxied-in.  With some fiddling, I got it so a .522" magnet slug spins freely the setup, which means I can use an arm as "fat" as .500-.505.  Maybe even fatter to make better use of the magnets having less oomph.

IMG_1763%20copy_zpsdx4fzend.jpg


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#25 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:47 PM

RE Post #8:  That strap is also the early Proslot 'production grp 12' that was adopted in the mid 1990s with can end screw mounts - then it morphed into a short strap - not c-can dimensioned.


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