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#1 CDavis7

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:28 PM

On an alternative slot car discussion site, there is currently conversation underway regarding old batch motors versus current batch. The owner of JK (thank you for supporting our hobby) has publicly stated that changes were made to the motors to make them more consistent in exchange for the fact that some of the older motors will knowingly, let me stress knowingly, be faster than the current batch.

 

What are the IRRA®'s plans to address this situation and why isn't it yet being discussed?

 

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful consideration of this matter.

 

Kindest regards,

 

CD


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#2 Pablo

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:44 PM

I can't speak for IRRA® and I'm not up on the latest developments, but this may help you:
 
Official status of Hawk Retro motor
 
JK Hawk Retro motor clarification
 
Also, you may want to post your question here:
 
IRRA® rules comments & discussion


Paul Wolcott

#3 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:44 PM

What would make you think it's not being discussed?

It is, but since we first heard of it, Friday afternoon, and two of the BoD are raceway owners that work over the weekend, we are not nearly ready to make a statement.

And Tim was made aware of the issue Friday afternoon, by me, shortly after we were made aware of the Facebook talk about it.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#4 The Number of

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:44 PM

Oh the BoD is discussing the issue, just not going to get into a mudslinging match until they have a resolution. This is my take in conversation with a BoD member and experience on how they handled hot button issues in the past. 


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#5 CDavis7

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 04:02 PM

Thank you. So the official answer is "a statement is forthcoming." I appreciate the honesty and look forward to continued communication.

 

Again, I appreciate the BoD's attention on this matter.

 

CD


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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 04:18 PM

  So the official answer is "a statement is forthcoming".

 

No, the unofficial answer is it being discussed, and we are not nearly ready to make a statement.

 

Also, unofficially, probably the more prudent move was if the person who brought up the issue, would have (also) brought it up here.

 

He certainly did that, within the last month, when he had a question about chassis material legality.

 

I understand the allure of no moderation/barstool arguing, on Facebook, but the IRRA® discusses matters here, a page, anyone can read, without joining.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
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Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#7 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 04:46 PM

The topic was a hot issue amongst drivers yesterday at the ORS event, Swiss. I have had conversations with the person you are referring to over the last month or so. We had both come to a conclusion but he wanted to be certain and wanted to try a few things with motor tear down.

 

I will say on Mike's American King. Both motors were close. Took two of each over the weekend and both were running about the same. So that's a positive. But so far on high speed... well, I have a few motors for the drag racers. Consistent at least I suppose compared to lap times of other 7R motors.


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#8 CDavis7

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:10 PM

Swiss, thank you. However, the manufacturer has publicly stated that older motors will, in fact, be faster than current ones. That is a serious issue. I understand that these are cheap Chinese components. However, I am looking to return to the hobby after a two-year hiatus and this information does not bode well for me.

 

Please advise as to how I should proceed after being away for two years, knowing that the motors I purchase today will be at a known disadvantage to NOS motors.


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#9 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:21 PM

Judging from how the IRRA® BoD has handled things for the eight years I've been racing these cars, they won't make a rushed decision to satisfy a few people, but will act accordingly to what is best for the majority of racers and long term health of the racing.  

 

So I suggest everyone keep their shirts on.... :)


"Whatever..."

#10 Cheater

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:30 PM

Also, unofficially, probably the more prudent move was if the person who brought up the issue, would have (also) brought it up here.


To be fair, the person who made this issue public on Facebook contacted me asking whether I wanted him to post here at Slotblog about it. I suggested I would prefer he share the post with me so I could pass it along to the other BoD members first. So it was not posted here at Slotblog at my specific request.

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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:36 PM

Duly noted.

 

Apologies, but I wasn't aware that was the case.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#12 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:05 PM

I will say on Mike's American King. Both motors were close. Took two of each over the weekend and both were running about the same. So that's a positive. But so far on high speed...

Just curious, what did you come in third place, in F1, with?
 
New or old?
 
"But so far on high speed" does that mean, IYO, they haven't been as competitive on Gerding Kings?
 
I know Noose mentioned that at the last Port Jeff race, Richie Theisen had a rocket 7R 7R 7R 7R 7R motor.
 
Looking at the race report, with his best lap times and lap totals, from the various Mains he was in, it certainly looked like he was a player.
 
The are certainly racers that seemed to think the older motors are better/faster and bought all I had.
 
After seeing Howie hot lap real fast with a 7R, early in practice, at the Sano, I wondered if that was really the case.
 
Regardless, we'll figure out what's going on.

Mike Swiss
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Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#13 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:19 PM

I think I ended up on an old one. I'll check to make sure when I get home. Mike had a lot of glue down Friday. So after we spread it out and broke the track in my F1 motor was slow so I changed it at the last second.

So far I have bought and broken in a few of these motors. About 10 now. At my home track I can do 4.0 to 3.9 pretty easy with a solid motor out of the old batch. I'm lucky to get a 4.3 with the new batch. On a high speed gerding King. But on the driver style tracks the new 7R is closer to the lap times.

I think a bullet can be found out of the newer batch but instead of batches of 10 I try. I'm thinking it will have to be batches of 20.

Perfect example is I broke in five new and five old just a few weeks ago. The best amps at 4v on the new style was around .45-.50 at 4v after 12 hours. On the older style Hawks my lowest of the 5 was .65 amps at 4v after 12 hours.

As a racer... it's a toss-up. Keep running old motors and trying to find them. Or go big and buy a bunch of the new and hope for the best. And honestly I don't know what I'm going to do. I think we have two different motors here. At least when you look at the top ten percent of racers. Howie had a rocket but the picture of his tech sheet was unclear. But Bud did confirm he shipped that car with a new Hawk in it.

Hopefully you guys can figure this out and see what can be done. Hopefully no ban or anything like that but a plan would be nice to hear. Of course it's early so there is time.

Can we do hand-outs at the R4 now? LOL.
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#14 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:20 PM

IMO it seems that all of the griping is happening because racers are buying 10 motors at a clip and they are not finding a mutant missile in the bunch. So lets look at this a bit. i saw Tim's graph, It reminded me of the Bell curve used by Business. Bell curve is a general term that's used to describe a graphical depiction of a normal probability distribution. The normal probability distribution's underlying standard deviations from the median, or from the highest point on the curve, is what gives it the shape of a curved bell. Lets look at a Bell graph using motors instead of people, keep in mind roughly 68% of the curve falls into the medium or average area.

Here is a 10 motor purchase of the old motors.
 
2014-10-03-blogbellcurve.jpg
 
As we see six motors would fall in the center median good range, to the right, one is slower than the six and one is a dog.
On the left we see one is a little better than the six and one is an absolute missile. So in the past we would buy 10 motors on average to find the one missle, disregarding the other nine. 
Now because Tim tightened up the manufacturing you end up with this.

new.jpg

So the Quality/Bell enlarged, nine usable, one garbage. 
What's it all mean? Maybe just buy three motors that will all work fine instead of 10. Eventually the older motors will be gone.

You know, old or new Hawks, we now have some of the closest racing we ever had.

And notice the guys that were winning with the Puppy Dogs, F7, TSR are the same guys winning with RH but also newer guys as well. In my eyes it's all good. Nothing is free, get on the track and run them in.


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#15 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:24 PM

Problem with that curve is the newer motors that are average are still slower than the average out of the old batch.
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#16 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:38 PM

Howie had a rocket but the picture of his tech sheet was unclear. But Bud did confirm he shipped that car with a new Hawk in it.

 

I don't honestly remember if the fast 7R was in his Bud F1 car, which he raced, or a Bud Can-Am car, which he didn't.

 

i just distinctly remember looking at a car, after it did an impressive lap, and commenting it was a new motor, and that guys that race a lot, say they aren't fast.

 

Howie just replied "Bud sent it in the car".


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#17 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:41 PM

Problem with that curve is the newer motors that are average are still slower than the average out of the old batch.

 

I disagree... It has been my experience that based on my current times with the new ones they are basically the same. 

 

Your mileage may vary...


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#18 Cheater

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:44 PM

The original Facebook post concerning this issue was made by Rick Bennardo, and with his kind permission, I will paste a copy here.

 

Whooston, we have a problem. First off, I want to make it perfectly clear I have no agenda and have no intention of "starting trouble"!

This will be lengthy so be warned.

 

This began when I went to my first race this season. I bought 10 new motors for the race, did a short break-in and figured to do the Chubby track thing with them, to bring them around. If it's good enough for Chubby, I am on board, too. It turned out that it did not work out, we were 4 tenths of the field. Four tenths! I have never been that far away. Being as I don't have many RH motors we found one that was closer and we stayed for the event.

 

Moving forward, we came home and broke all the motors in fully, old school way, and seated the brushes. Went out for another test session and the motors picked up a couple of hundreths but nothing major. Hummm. Still 10 duds out of 10.

 

I talked to another racer, asked him he hahd any exposure to the new RH motors etched 7R, and he told me his experience with six motors was the same" 3-4 tenths off the pace. He is also among the pack and runs well. Now I am very curious. Comes along a thread on Slotblog and somebody posts the same thing, "Has anybody for a good 7R motor, as he was seven for seven duds?"

 

I feel it is time for some testing and inspection. I asked some friends to send along any used-up motors, searched in my box and bought a few more 7Rs myself.

 

I know some of you are familiar with metering arms to sort them good to bad and some of you reading this are not. But is was a common practice in group racing in my years past experience.

 

I tore apart probably 30 motors, from early TSRs and Falcon 7s because these are all supposed be of the same specs. Along with R etched RHs and 7R etched examples. I wanted a broad range of data to draw a conclusion and not a small sampling.

 

The resistance readings on all the motors had a variance, from about 457 to 471, pretty consistent for a cheap motor. Timing varied a tad and magnets were close to same. Until I metered a new 7R motor: resistance numbers zoomed as high as .540! Now I understand why I was behind by 4 tenths behind the curve. I sent the wire out of one of the new 7Rs and had it checked and it came back a half thousandths smaller wire, wire gauge is supposed to be plus or minus .0001. Another reason for the much higher readings. I don't think I have 10 anomalies considering two other people with a total of 13 motors have the same issues.

 

The new motors are normally consistent with the others in their grouping but will never be a race motor mixed in with prior batches.

I keep hearing about level playing field and it has been, pretty much. Does this mean we have to have a shelf life on motors? Or everyone has to use alike marked motors? Things have changed now. What do we do now? If you have a cache of older batches, this will have no bearing on you, for a while.

 

I will share this in Slot Talk also and want to keep it honest and objective because it's a large problem/issue but will ask Hershman to delete derogatory posts and mudslinging, or just delete the entire thing, myself.

 

Thanks for keeping it civil in advance...


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#19 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:49 PM

Exactly, John. Mileage may vary and also expectations vary as do drivers. Each will have an own opinion. Only way to find out is open them up and see it and measure it. Only the BoD can resolve this. If it is anything... it's in their hands.

 

Rick just did his own tests on his own free will and shared it. Personally it took some balls on his part. Because he knew what could happen but I think his post handled it very well.


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#20 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:53 PM

Swiss,

Full disclosure. I ran one of the new motors in my F1 at Tom Thumb yesterday and the older version in my Can-Am.
On a driver's track, not a speed bowl.


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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 07:03 PM

By lap times, it looks like you had the second fastest car with the new motor.

 

I get the track differences between it and a Gerding.

 

That's why I said second fastest car, not motor.

 

This is sounding like the deal where guys said some Puppy Dogs that were duds on one track were studs on another, and visa versa.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#22 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 07:18 PM

That's why I said on a driver's track not much at all. I have only noticed my experience on a high speed King. Such as Mark's Model World. Willy and the normal group up there run fast. You have to be 4.1 to run with them at all. I had five new ones and ran a 4.8 with the best one. I know a few others had the same issue. Those motors at Tom Thumb were mine and another guy's best. Not because of speed but the brakes and the punch.

My car was good. I dumped it a few times on a slick spot in blue lane. That and Fox and Willy are machines. But to be that close with a few dumps on a few lanes it's something to build on. Car and motor are in the bag until the next time we race there LOL.

It's the other tracks that the difference is noticeable. It was a hot topic like I said and it was the same for everyone I talked to about it. And we all agreed it was the fast Kings where we were seeing it most. Just passing along the info, sir.


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#23 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 08:23 PM

I bought 50 new 7R motors and believe going off of my old notes that I got about 10 real good ones and 10 pretty good ones. Got 30 average and below. I have not track tested them but going off of my old notes, when I get a heat cycle or two on them, they will be right with my R motors. Although I did get scared Friday and purchased some old style motors. So I'm covered either way.

 

I really think it's gonna be the chassis and driver ability that makes or breaks my race. Let's all just put some laps on these new 7R motors before we jump to conclusion.

 

Besides the typical racer seems to forget a lot... It ain't what you got, it's what you got "right"!


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#24 Danny Zona

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 08:29 PM

I know on my home track there is clearly a difference in lap times between the old and new batches.

Yes, I know how to test motors consistently with the best of racers.


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I've been racing in the FL flexi series since 1999 when I started back racing. Just imagine the rules changes I've seen!

#25 slotcarone

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 08:40 PM

I think a lot of the problem is that people are buying 10, 20, 50 motors. From my experience with RH motors there is no way to tell track performance unless they are in a car. They usually require 30-45 minutes running time in a car on the track to tell if it is good or not. Many of these motors seem really fast and then you take it off the track for a half hour and put it back on track cold and now it is slow. The hardest part is finding one that is fast from the first lap cold. If you have 20 new motors how are you going to track test them all?


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#26 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 10:41 AM

One at a time LOL!!!
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#27 Danny Zona

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 11:18 AM

Ripping motors. Give me 5 or 50. I'll make it happen. LOL.
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I've been racing in the FL flexi series since 1999 when I started back racing. Just imagine the rules changes I've seen!

#28 Tim Neja

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 11:33 AM

Well, it appears Retro Hawks are not the saving grace of Retro after all!! Making changes to the motors is exactly what we don't need!!! Having new slower motors absolutely sucks!! It's sad that Tim didn't learn from his first mistake - changing the motor shafts! Now this is just another blunder that puts our little hobby into upset. Seems like we should just go back to TSRs and be done with it!! At least they have never changed!


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#29 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 12:29 PM

Tim,

JK Tim didn't change the specs. He tightened up the specs.

He explained to me what was done and none of it would lead to slower motors. It would just try to eliminate the occasional rocket and occasional, super dud.

By the look of Rick's post, and the higher metering numbers, it appears that the new batch of motors conincided with his vendor getting in a new batch of wire that was slightly smaller.

The part that doesn't make sense is Howie winning Sano F1 with one, and Jason taking third in a strong 30 car Ohio field, running second fastest time, only topped by slot cyborg, Willy Custer.

Mike Swiss
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#30 Noose

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 12:47 PM

Did we not hear the same thing when the first lasered version with the R made in China came out vs the original ones just stamped with ink? 


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#31 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 01:08 PM

I wasn't going to respond to anything here. It does not surprise me on fast 7R motors. The issue really is did the original spool of wire run out after 300 arms were wound or 3,000 or ??? So there are good, bad, average mixed all together. I was unlucky enough to get 12 (in a row) bad ones. The motor is the staple for IRRA® racing and should just continue to made as it always has, don't try to "improve" or change anything. Why keep trying to fix something when nothing is broken?...

 

In response to Noose's question, no...


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#32 Butters37

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 01:34 PM

Maybe Noose can do some back to back with notes at the Fall Brawl? I would assume that he has a stable of both styles ready to roll. I know Willy isn't taking a single new style. I've never been to SpeedZone so Noose would have to say if it would be a good track to qualify as a speed bowl.


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#33 Noose

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 01:38 PM

Maybe Noose can do some back to back with notes at the Fall Brawl? I would assume that he has a stable of both styles ready to roll. I know Willy isn't taking a single new style. I've never been to SpeedZone so Noose would have to say if it would be a good track to qualify as a speed bowl.

 

I actually do not have any 7Rs. The two I had left over on our Enduro team I gave to Hip since our team only used one motor for the whole six hours. The Engleman is also not a speed bowl nor is the King really. I do figure though that the 7Rs will more than likely be the hand-out motor for the GTC-FK and GTC-Pro classes on Friday.


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 01:45 PM

I wasn't going to respond to anything here. It does not surprise me on fast 7R motors. The issue really is did the original spool of wire run out after 300 arms were wound or 3,000 or ???

The motor is the staple for IRRA® racing and should just continue to made as it always has, don't try to "improve" or change anything. Why keep trying to fix something when nothing is broken?...

 

Rick,

 

Apologies again on criticizing you for not originally posting here.

When Greg posted your FB post for the BoD to see, he obviously didn't mention to us you intended to post it publicly, here on Slotblog.

As far as your "why fix what is not broken" statement, my post #29 and your own post alludes to the same.

The wire size apparently changed to a slightly smaller dia. I'm 100% sure Tim didn't tell his motor vendor to do as such.

As far as resistance numbers, when it was legal to work on your own motors, and then send them in for verification and sealing, what kind of variance did you see with Puppy Dog arms?

A lot? A little?

If just a little, any opinion on why they varied so much in speed?

And a question for the BP guys.

Was it ever determined why the older, yellow JK labeled, Falcon 7s appear to be faster than the newer white TSR labeled ones?


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#35 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:00 PM

Well as a keeper of 70 original HR's, I do not know if I am lucky or unlucky right now.

 

In regards to what Mike just posted, I always had great luck with the original yellow label Falcon 7's, but found the white label TSR motors to be slower on average, more consistent, and with better brakes. Sounds similar to the topic question and concern here.

 

I am not privy to what manufacturers requirements are with the IRRA® BoD, however is there a need to have a sample sent in for every new imported batch? Maybe a standardized sample percentage to the gross number of motors per batch for qualification purposes.

 

I still believe in the sealed motor concept and I also am rational and reasonable enough to know that there are going to be variances. These variances are just as common with $80+ built motors. The guy that has a $1,000 sealed motor package is the same guy that had a $1,000+ builder motor package. The difference is that the excess average sealed motors still get used where the non-performing hand wound armatures of the builder motors die in a Plano container. Way easier to look for the bullet changing $12 motors than it was swapping out setups, armatures, etc. At least for the mid-pack at best guys like me.


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#36 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:21 PM

When Greg posted your FB post for the BoD to see, he obviously didn't mention to us you intended to post it publicly here on Slotblog.


And I regret not giving the other BoD members the full picture as I should have. My apologies to Rick as well.

From the big-picture viewpoint, as Swiss mentioned in a tire thread, this is an ultra-low volume hobby and suppliers are unlikely to be ordering motors in 100,000 piece volumes simply because the demand doesn't justify it. I don't know in what volumes motors are being ordered now but suspect it is a much lower number. Once a batch is sold out, another batch will be ordered. And my feeling is that there will be performance variations from batch to batch, more than the variations with a single batch of motors. So this is likely to be an on-going problem.

Matt, the IRRA® is not really in a position to dictate requirements to a motor manufacturer. We're lucky to have a Tim Homola who is trying his best to supply as consistent a motor as he can have made for us to use.


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#37 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:23 PM

As far as resistance numbers, when it was legal to work on your own motors, and then send them in for verification and sealing, what kind of variance did you see with Puppy Dog arms?

A lot? A little?

 
PD arms meter much higher than Hawk motors. They also varied, as all arms do, even CNC would arms do. Why? I can't answer that. They varied about 20 counts on my meter. Across the bell curve, probably much better than Asian motors as a whole. Being much higher milliohms means % of variance much better. Normal Hawks have read in the .460 to .480 range, off the top of my head for the present spec of turns/wire size. IIRC, the best PD I ever saw was .585 the norm being about .600.
 
There is no way to compare CNC winding to Asian mush winding.
 
The 7R motors, just from my unknowing info, appear to be from a different factory than previous versions, from the appearance of the winding. Or a different operator, or different winding machine or possible when wire changed other variables changed too? Tension, making the visual difference?
 
The last variable that can make a faster motor, is timing variances, and that will just be something we have to accept from China. When you are looking at a .160" base circle, it would be very difficult to notice 3-5 degees. PS has a fixture to set the comms.
 
We, as a group, have taken a motor way far away from its intended function.
 
We will always have the variable from the Golden Ticket to SRO but 50/60 counts is not acceptable...


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#38 Pappy

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:37 PM

I say do away with qualifying, random draw names for heats which will put the fast guys in with us duffers and lets have at it.

 

That should take the motors out of the equation.  :laugh2:


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#39 Half Fast

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:40 PM

JK Tim didn't change the specs. He tightened up the specs.

He explained to me what was done and none of it would lead to slower motors. It would just try to eliminate the occasional rocket and occasional, super dud.

 
No good deed goes unpunished, unfortunately.
 
Cheers,


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#40 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 02:46 PM

Matt, the IRRA® is not really in a position to dictate requirements to a motor manufacturer. We're lucky to have a Tim Homola who is trying his best to supply as consistent a motor as he can have made for us to use.

 

I am not saying dictate, I am saying verify the specs. It has been admitted that there is a wire difference. This could have been caught with a simple verification process. I realize we are dealing with third party manufacturing and I am not faulting Tim whatsoever. Just saying there may need to be a process to make the randomness not so random.

 

I always like the opportunity to shoot the missile down before it hits its target. Clean up is always a harder task.


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#41 Mike Patterson

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 03:01 PM

I would like to know what is wrong with "slower"? As an elderly gentleman, I can appreciate a car that I can actually follow around the track, and my aging reflexes can control, as opposed to a blur.

 

So all you guys with "slow" motors, don't pitch them, send them to me!  :D


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#42 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 03:10 PM

Great posts, Matt.

As far as verifying specs on motors, all we would be verifying is that particular motor.

Without someone in the factory, checking wire size, every time, the roll gets changed in the winder, how can we assured of anything?

IOW, unless a batch of 10,000 motors can be wound with one huge roll of wire, how can anything be 100% guaranteed?


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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#43 John Streisguth

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 03:23 PM

Anyone have any idea of the total length of wire used in these motors?


"Whatever..."

#44 Tim Neja

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 03:31 PM

"Slower" is FINE!!! The problem is in VARIABLE!!! The TSR motors were certainly slower---but I feel were the MOST consistent in quality we ever had.  The variance was closer to %5-%7---instead of the %15- %25 we are getting now in relative performance.  THAT is  a killer because now we have racers buying new motors that CAN'T complete no matter what with the older motors!! EXACTLY what we were told wouldn't happen when Retro Hawks were stumped as the greatest thing ever!

 

 Again--it just hasn't held it's promise and now we have another motor problem.  Sounds like it's NOT going to get better anytime soon---until ALL the old motors get used up slowly over time.  I know some folks that have a LOT of those motors. I suppose at some future date you just say they ALL have to have 7R on them or whatever the CURRENT batch of motors are and the old ones aren't legal anymore.  What a cluster again.  It's just too bad--- it seemed the motor wars had settled down--and now we're back in a controversy that needs to be resolved.


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#45 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 03:38 PM

JK could always buy the spool(s) of wire in the US and send that to China to use in his motors. It has been done in the past. Then you know you have true 30 gauge wire. I know the tubs of wire we had at the mill had beaucoup feet of wire in them. Probably make arms for way past my shelf life...


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#46 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 03:53 PM

As far as verifying specs on motors, all we would be verifying is that particular motor.

Without someone in the factory, checking wire size, every time, the roll gets changed in the winder, how can we assured of anything?

IOW, unless a batch of 10,000 motors can be wound with one huge roll of wire, how can anything be 100% guaranteed?

 

Checking a sample of each batch would still be more consistent. If nothing else you would have in hand confirmation of a batch sample in a case like this where someone is claiming rape. Again even if 10 rolls of wire were used, you still have an opportunity of finding inconsistency through random inspections. Looking zero percent of the time is a guarantee of never finding it. If there was an option of 5-6 motor choices (not saying there should be), then there would not be as much of a concern in my opinion. I am not saying there is an issue because I have not tried any of the new versions, just adding what to me looks to be a simple solution.

 

If cost is a question as to who will pay for 20 samples per batch of 10,000 let me know. As a manufacturer in a different industry I know I would not hesitate to comply to a sample request program if I was the provider to the component of choice. To me it also sets a quality standard moving forward to any new potential motor opportunities.


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#47 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 04:03 PM

I appreciate JK Products and their commitment to our small slot car Industry. The idea of equality with everybody having basically the same motor has been great for slot car racing, especially the Retro division. However, hang around the King track at Buena Park Raceway for a while and the talk is almost always the same:  either "I got a fast motor today" or "I got no motor today."
 
I just really think that thought should be given to an American made motor, even at $20  a piece, that has overall better quality control to ensure a level playing field. I'd rather buy one motor at 20 bucks that can give me 2-3 good races than 5-6 motors at $12.95 that don't get the job done. How the SCRRA, IRRA® or whatever other governing body can go about that would be really difficult but I think needs to be done.

  
Tim,

$20 for a consistent US-made motor? Two big problems:

You can't manufacture a $20 motor in the U.S.

Regardless, it won't provide the consistency you're hoping for.

The IRRA® had $51 motors with US-made arms in a Chinese set-up, and assembled in the US and they varied enough, guys had $3K motor programs.

When there was weekly G12 racing at BP, when the Gerding King was new, one guy spent $10K buying Beuf-made $100 motors.

If it was as easy as spending more per motor, for identical performance, don't you think that person would have pulled the plug at about $1K?
 

"Slower" is FINE!!! The problem is in VARIABLE!!! The TSR motors were certainly slower---but I feel were the MOST consistent in quality we ever had.  The variance was closer to %5-%7---instead of the %15- %25 we are getting now in relative performance.  THAT is  a killer because now we have racers buying new motors that CAN'T complete no matter what with the older motors!! EXACTLY what we were told wouldn't happen when Retro Hawks were stumped as the greatest thing ever!
 
 Again--it just hasn't held it's promise and now we have another motor problem.  Sounds like it's NOT going to get better anytime soon---until ALL the old motors get used up slowly over time.  I know some folks that have a LOT of those motors. I suppose at some future date you just say they ALL have to have 7R on them or whatever the CURRENT batch of motors are and the old ones aren't legal anymore.  What a cluster again.  It's just too bad--- it seemed the motor wars had settled down--and now we're back in a controversy that needs to be resolved.

 
Other Tim,
The current situation with the wire dimension apparently getting smaller, has nothing to do with how well the Hawk Retro has served retro racing the last four years.

Your situation with BP, racing on a Gerding, on low voltage, with no weight limit, is unique.

Everywhere else around the country, racing has been real close using the Retro Hawk.

At the Sano last year, 292-295 laps, 1st-7th, in the hand-out Pro coupe race.

At this year's Sano, the winner in the two King hand-out races, won by only 2 laps.

In the two non-hand-out races, it was only 1 lap.

It's not just at my track. Look at this race I happened to save from SpeedZone;

FB_IMG_1457280331915.jpg

Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
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17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#48 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 04:27 PM

Mike,

To answer your question about what differences the BPR racers found in the Falcon 7s... general concensus was that the older orange label ones were faster but many people had white label ones that ran well also. I never had a fast Falcon 7 that lasted an entire race on the King track and they always seem to slow about half way through but many had some go all the way. I think Duran and Ben Jr have ran 350 laps out here with Falcon 7s. To me, the TSRs were unquestionably the best as you knew there were no "silver bullets" and you didn't need to waste your time and money searching for them... just a tad slower but exceptionally consistent and this is just not so with the Falcon 7s (or the Hawks). Just my opinion here and some racers will disagree with me about the TSRs but I think I'm being pretty objective.
 
Over the years I have probably torn apart maybe 20-30 TSRs and Falcon 7s and they are virtually identical in construction and consistancy. 64, 65 or 66 turns of .0105" wire, (about 78") magnets, endbell and cans identical, the same armature and several years ago we checked the armature resistance and there were no issues with any variation. Except for the shafts, the old Falcon 7s and the newer Falcon 7s are absolutely the same so any real speed difference is probably just attributed to the speed difference in general with the Falcon 7s. In any discussion concerning any of these FK type motors I always remember that these are $13 Chinese motors (a couple bucks or so to manufacture??) and all things considered, I think remarkably consistent and reliable for the price!
 
We haven't run a lot of the new Hawk 7Rs out here yet and I have only run one and it was so-so. I have torn apart two now that this little issue has come up and both the 7Rs had 65 turns of .0105" wire, exactly the same as all the TSRs, Falcon 7s and older Hawks. I am using just an old Starrett micrometer but it is certainly good enough for a comparison and at least on these two the wire seems the same. The Hawks have completely different magnets than the TSRs and Falcons and it seems the Hawks often have a different feel from Hawk to Hawk as far as the magnetic cogging goes when you spin them by hand and it doesn't appear to be on account of the balancing...
 
I don't think we've run enough of the newer 7Rs to definately determine if there is indeed a speed difference but I do know people are buying a lot of Hawks in general looking for the faster ones. :)
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#49 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 04:33 PM

Anyone have any idea of the total length of wire used in these motors?


John,

I have torn apart a bunch and it is about 77-1/2" to 78-1/4" per pole.



#50 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 04:35 PM

If cost is a question as to who will pay for 20 samples per batch of 10,000 let me know.

 

Cheater has already alluded to this, but OK, saying we did that in this particular situation, it would be a situation of who would pay for the 9,980 motors that just were a tick slower than the last batch, not the 20 samples.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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