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#1 CDavis7

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:28 PM

On an alternative slot car discussion site, there is currently conversation underway regarding old batch motors versus current batch. The owner of JK (thank you for supporting our hobby) has publicly stated that changes were made to the motors to make them more consistent in exchange for the fact that some of the older motors will knowingly, let me stress knowingly, be faster than the current batch.

 

What are the IRRA®'s plans to address this situation and why isn't it yet being discussed?

 

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful consideration of this matter.

 

Kindest regards,

 

CD


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#2 Pablo

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:44 PM

I can't speak for IRRA® and I'm not up on the latest developments, but this may help you:
 
Official status of Hawk Retro motor
 
JK Hawk Retro motor clarification
 
Also, you may want to post your question here:
 
IRRA® rules comments & discussion


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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:44 PM

What would make you think it's not being discussed?

It is, but since we first heard of it, Friday afternoon, and two of the BoD are raceway owners that work over the weekend, we are not nearly ready to make a statement.

And Tim was made aware of the issue Friday afternoon, by me, shortly after we were made aware of the Facebook talk about it.


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Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

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#4 The Number of

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:44 PM

Oh the BoD is discussing the issue, just not going to get into a mudslinging match until they have a resolution. This is my take in conversation with a BoD member and experience on how they handled hot button issues in the past. 


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#5 CDavis7

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 04:02 PM

Thank you. So the official answer is "a statement is forthcoming." I appreciate the honesty and look forward to continued communication.

 

Again, I appreciate the BoD's attention on this matter.

 

CD


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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 04:18 PM

  So the official answer is "a statement is forthcoming".

 

No, the unofficial answer is it being discussed, and we are not nearly ready to make a statement.

 

Also, unofficially, probably the more prudent move was if the person who brought up the issue, would have (also) brought it up here.

 

He certainly did that, within the last month, when he had a question about chassis material legality.

 

I understand the allure of no moderation/barstool arguing, on Facebook, but the IRRA® discusses matters here, a page, anyone can read, without joining.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#7 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 04:46 PM

The topic was a hot issue amongst drivers yesterday at the ORS event, Swiss. I have had conversations with the person you are referring to over the last month or so. We had both come to a conclusion but he wanted to be certain and wanted to try a few things with motor tear down.

 

I will say on Mike's American King. Both motors were close. Took two of each over the weekend and both were running about the same. So that's a positive. But so far on high speed... well, I have a few motors for the drag racers. Consistent at least I suppose compared to lap times of other 7R motors.


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#8 CDavis7

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:10 PM

Swiss, thank you. However, the manufacturer has publicly stated that older motors will, in fact, be faster than current ones. That is a serious issue. I understand that these are cheap Chinese components. However, I am looking to return to the hobby after a two-year hiatus and this information does not bode well for me.

 

Please advise as to how I should proceed after being away for two years, knowing that the motors I purchase today will be at a known disadvantage to NOS motors.


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#9 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:21 PM

Judging from how the IRRA® BoD has handled things for the eight years I've been racing these cars, they won't make a rushed decision to satisfy a few people, but will act accordingly to what is best for the majority of racers and long term health of the racing.  

 

So I suggest everyone keep their shirts on.... :)


"Whatever..."

#10 Cheater

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:30 PM

Also, unofficially, probably the more prudent move was if the person who brought up the issue, would have (also) brought it up here.


To be fair, the person who made this issue public on Facebook contacted me asking whether I wanted him to post here at Slotblog about it. I suggested I would prefer he share the post with me so I could pass it along to the other BoD members first. So it was not posted here at Slotblog at my specific request.

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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 05:36 PM

Duly noted.

 

Apologies, but I wasn't aware that was the case.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#12 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:05 PM

I will say on Mike's American King. Both motors were close. Took two of each over the weekend and both were running about the same. So that's a positive. But so far on high speed...

Just curious, what did you come in third place, in F1, with?
 
New or old?
 
"But so far on high speed" does that mean, IYO, they haven't been as competitive on Gerding Kings?
 
I know Noose mentioned that at the last Port Jeff race, Richie Theisen had a rocket 7R 7R 7R 7R 7R motor.
 
Looking at the race report, with his best lap times and lap totals, from the various Mains he was in, it certainly looked like he was a player.
 
The are certainly racers that seemed to think the older motors are better/faster and bought all I had.
 
After seeing Howie hot lap real fast with a 7R, early in practice, at the Sano, I wondered if that was really the case.
 
Regardless, we'll figure out what's going on.

Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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#13 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:19 PM

I think I ended up on an old one. I'll check to make sure when I get home. Mike had a lot of glue down Friday. So after we spread it out and broke the track in my F1 motor was slow so I changed it at the last second.

So far I have bought and broken in a few of these motors. About 10 now. At my home track I can do 4.0 to 3.9 pretty easy with a solid motor out of the old batch. I'm lucky to get a 4.3 with the new batch. On a high speed gerding King. But on the driver style tracks the new 7R is closer to the lap times.

I think a bullet can be found out of the newer batch but instead of batches of 10 I try. I'm thinking it will have to be batches of 20.

Perfect example is I broke in five new and five old just a few weeks ago. The best amps at 4v on the new style was around .45-.50 at 4v after 12 hours. On the older style Hawks my lowest of the 5 was .65 amps at 4v after 12 hours.

As a racer... it's a toss-up. Keep running old motors and trying to find them. Or go big and buy a bunch of the new and hope for the best. And honestly I don't know what I'm going to do. I think we have two different motors here. At least when you look at the top ten percent of racers. Howie had a rocket but the picture of his tech sheet was unclear. But Bud did confirm he shipped that car with a new Hawk in it.

Hopefully you guys can figure this out and see what can be done. Hopefully no ban or anything like that but a plan would be nice to hear. Of course it's early so there is time.

Can we do hand-outs at the R4 now? LOL.
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#14 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:20 PM

IMO it seems that all of the griping is happening because racers are buying 10 motors at a clip and they are not finding a mutant missile in the bunch. So lets look at this a bit. i saw Tim's graph, It reminded me of the Bell curve used by Business. Bell curve is a general term that's used to describe a graphical depiction of a normal probability distribution. The normal probability distribution's underlying standard deviations from the median, or from the highest point on the curve, is what gives it the shape of a curved bell. Lets look at a Bell graph using motors instead of people, keep in mind roughly 68% of the curve falls into the medium or average area.

Here is a 10 motor purchase of the old motors.
 
2014-10-03-blogbellcurve.jpg
 
As we see six motors would fall in the center median good range, to the right, one is slower than the six and one is a dog.
On the left we see one is a little better than the six and one is an absolute missile. So in the past we would buy 10 motors on average to find the one missle, disregarding the other nine. 
Now because Tim tightened up the manufacturing you end up with this.

new.jpg

So the Quality/Bell enlarged, nine usable, one garbage. 
What's it all mean? Maybe just buy three motors that will all work fine instead of 10. Eventually the older motors will be gone.

You know, old or new Hawks, we now have some of the closest racing we ever had.

And notice the guys that were winning with the Puppy Dogs, F7, TSR are the same guys winning with RH but also newer guys as well. In my eyes it's all good. Nothing is free, get on the track and run them in.


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#15 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:24 PM

Problem with that curve is the newer motors that are average are still slower than the average out of the old batch.
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#16 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:38 PM

Howie had a rocket but the picture of his tech sheet was unclear. But Bud did confirm he shipped that car with a new Hawk in it.

 

I don't honestly remember if the fast 7R was in his Bud F1 car, which he raced, or a Bud Can-Am car, which he didn't.

 

i just distinctly remember looking at a car, after it did an impressive lap, and commenting it was a new motor, and that guys that race a lot, say they aren't fast.

 

Howie just replied "Bud sent it in the car".


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#17 JerseyJohn

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:41 PM

Problem with that curve is the newer motors that are average are still slower than the average out of the old batch.

 

I disagree... It has been my experience that based on my current times with the new ones they are basically the same. 

 

Your mileage may vary...


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#18 Cheater

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:44 PM

The original Facebook post concerning this issue was made by Rick Bennardo, and with his kind permission, I will paste a copy here.

 

Whooston, we have a problem. First off, I want to make it perfectly clear I have no agenda and have no intention of "starting trouble"!

This will be lengthy so be warned.

 

This began when I went to my first race this season. I bought 10 new motors for the race, did a short break-in and figured to do the Chubby track thing with them, to bring them around. If it's good enough for Chubby, I am on board, too. It turned out that it did not work out, we were 4 tenths of the field. Four tenths! I have never been that far away. Being as I don't have many RH motors we found one that was closer and we stayed for the event.

 

Moving forward, we came home and broke all the motors in fully, old school way, and seated the brushes. Went out for another test session and the motors picked up a couple of hundreths but nothing major. Hummm. Still 10 duds out of 10.

 

I talked to another racer, asked him he hahd any exposure to the new RH motors etched 7R, and he told me his experience with six motors was the same" 3-4 tenths off the pace. He is also among the pack and runs well. Now I am very curious. Comes along a thread on Slotblog and somebody posts the same thing, "Has anybody for a good 7R motor, as he was seven for seven duds?"

 

I feel it is time for some testing and inspection. I asked some friends to send along any used-up motors, searched in my box and bought a few more 7Rs myself.

 

I know some of you are familiar with metering arms to sort them good to bad and some of you reading this are not. But is was a common practice in group racing in my years past experience.

 

I tore apart probably 30 motors, from early TSRs and Falcon 7s because these are all supposed be of the same specs. Along with R etched RHs and 7R etched examples. I wanted a broad range of data to draw a conclusion and not a small sampling.

 

The resistance readings on all the motors had a variance, from about 457 to 471, pretty consistent for a cheap motor. Timing varied a tad and magnets were close to same. Until I metered a new 7R motor: resistance numbers zoomed as high as .540! Now I understand why I was behind by 4 tenths behind the curve. I sent the wire out of one of the new 7Rs and had it checked and it came back a half thousandths smaller wire, wire gauge is supposed to be plus or minus .0001. Another reason for the much higher readings. I don't think I have 10 anomalies considering two other people with a total of 13 motors have the same issues.

 

The new motors are normally consistent with the others in their grouping but will never be a race motor mixed in with prior batches.

I keep hearing about level playing field and it has been, pretty much. Does this mean we have to have a shelf life on motors? Or everyone has to use alike marked motors? Things have changed now. What do we do now? If you have a cache of older batches, this will have no bearing on you, for a while.

 

I will share this in Slot Talk also and want to keep it honest and objective because it's a large problem/issue but will ask Hershman to delete derogatory posts and mudslinging, or just delete the entire thing, myself.

 

Thanks for keeping it civil in advance...


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#19 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:49 PM

Exactly, John. Mileage may vary and also expectations vary as do drivers. Each will have an own opinion. Only way to find out is open them up and see it and measure it. Only the BoD can resolve this. If it is anything... it's in their hands.

 

Rick just did his own tests on his own free will and shared it. Personally it took some balls on his part. Because he knew what could happen but I think his post handled it very well.


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#20 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 06:53 PM

Swiss,

Full disclosure. I ran one of the new motors in my F1 at Tom Thumb yesterday and the older version in my Can-Am.
On a driver's track, not a speed bowl.


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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 07:03 PM

By lap times, it looks like you had the second fastest car with the new motor.

 

I get the track differences between it and a Gerding.

 

That's why I said second fastest car, not motor.

 

This is sounding like the deal where guys said some Puppy Dogs that were duds on one track were studs on another, and visa versa.


Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#22 Butters37

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 07:18 PM

That's why I said on a driver's track not much at all. I have only noticed my experience on a high speed King. Such as Mark's Model World. Willy and the normal group up there run fast. You have to be 4.1 to run with them at all. I had five new ones and ran a 4.8 with the best one. I know a few others had the same issue. Those motors at Tom Thumb were mine and another guy's best. Not because of speed but the brakes and the punch.

My car was good. I dumped it a few times on a slick spot in blue lane. That and Fox and Willy are machines. But to be that close with a few dumps on a few lanes it's something to build on. Car and motor are in the bag until the next time we race there LOL.

It's the other tracks that the difference is noticeable. It was a hot topic like I said and it was the same for everyone I talked to about it. And we all agreed it was the fast Kings where we were seeing it most. Just passing along the info, sir.


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#23 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 08:23 PM

I bought 50 new 7R motors and believe going off of my old notes that I got about 10 real good ones and 10 pretty good ones. Got 30 average and below. I have not track tested them but going off of my old notes, when I get a heat cycle or two on them, they will be right with my R motors. Although I did get scared Friday and purchased some old style motors. So I'm covered either way.

 

I really think it's gonna be the chassis and driver ability that makes or breaks my race. Let's all just put some laps on these new 7R motors before we jump to conclusion.

 

Besides the typical racer seems to forget a lot... It ain't what you got, it's what you got "right"!


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#24 Danny Zona

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 08:29 PM

I know on my home track there is clearly a difference in lap times between the old and new batches.

Yes, I know how to test motors consistently with the best of racers.


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#25 slotcarone

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 08:40 PM

I think a lot of the problem is that people are buying 10, 20, 50 motors. From my experience with RH motors there is no way to tell track performance unless they are in a car. They usually require 30-45 minutes running time in a car on the track to tell if it is good or not. Many of these motors seem really fast and then you take it off the track for a half hour and put it back on track cold and now it is slow. The hardest part is finding one that is fast from the first lap cold. If you have 20 new motors how are you going to track test them all?


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