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#51 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 04:59 PM

While the original concern was that they were slower, it was confirmed that there was a difference in wire size, correct? The OEM confirmed willingly that they were aware of the performance difference as well (though minor on their side). In QC validation it is all about equals, is it not? One step at a time with this. If all variables are the same and in fact a batch was grossly slower and easily proven, then since there is not a lot of options of motor choice there needs to be a easy solution. To me simply adding weight to the faster batch of motors would be an easy remedy to start if we are simply concerned about straightaway speed. Works for 1:1 racing until things get sorted out.
 
Again, there has to be some reasonable expectations from the racers as well.


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#52 Samiam

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:41 PM

I am not saying dictate, I am saying verify the specs. It has been admitted that there is a wire difference. This could have been caught with a simple verification process. I realize we are dealing with third party manufacturing and I am not faulting Tim whatsoever. Just saying there may need to be a process to make the randomness not so random.

 

 

Anyone here speak Chinese?


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#53 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:41 PM

Tim,

Your above post suggests you are not aware of how getting these motors produced in China happens. Stopping production is not an option.

And this slower vs faster motor nonsense is just that. Faster does not mean "better." In fact, faster works to reduce participation in slot racing in many instances.
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#54 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:47 PM

While the original concern was that they were slower, it was confirmed that there was a difference in wire size, correct?
Rick said yes(not sure what was used to measure), Bryan said not as far as he could tell (with his micrometer). Tim JK doesn't have anything accurate enough to comment.


The only way to accurately measure wire is chemically strip the insulation and use a laser micrometer. In a pinch, a real good optical comparator might work.

I just metered (all three unused) two 7Rs  and got approx. .520 readings, on both, and one R, with approx. a .500 reading.
 
Not a good sample size, but in my personal opinion, factoring in everything I've read, the wire dimension on at least a portion of the 7Rs, is a tiny bit smaller.


The OEM confirmed willingly that they were aware of the performance difference as well (though minor on their side). In QC validation it is all about equals, is it not? One step at a time with this. If all variables are the same and in fact a batch was grossly slower and easily proven, then since there is not a lot of options of motor choice there needs to be a easy solution.
 
To me simply adding weight to the faster batch of motors would be an easy remedy to start if we are simply concerned about straightaway speed. Works for 1:1 racing until things get sorted out.


Yes, if we were just concerned about straightaway speed. But i think anyone who has raced against against someone with a heavier car and a faster motor, they will attest it's not quite fair. :laugh2:


Again, there has to be some reasonable expectations from the racers as well.


I don't know, if indeed the wire size is on the small side, if JK has a beef where he could expect some relief from the manufacturer.


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#55 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:50 PM

RH lives matter. The ones I have behave differently at each of the four tracks we run in Florida. Then again, the guy in the Sonic TV commercials think we are a different planet - we kinda are since travelling racers never come here. I don't always use ink, but when I do, I prefer it on my RH. Please don't make me throw away good motors.


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#56 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:19 PM

Your above post suggests you are not aware of how getting these motors produced in China happens. Stopping production is not an option.

And this slower vs faster motor nonsense is just that. Faster does not mean "better." In fact, faster works to reduce participation in slot racing in many instances.

 

Greg,

 

Nonsense? Stopping production may not have been an option but distributing the motors for sale was.

 

I disagree with your comment that "faster works to reduce participation in slot racing." What works to reduce participation is a perceived unfair advantage. If I used up all my older version Hawk Retro motors that were 3-5 tenths faster on the King track than what I can buy at the counter at Buena Park Raceway, that in time, will not only reduce my participation but others as well. I'll race the flat track where driving skills are much more in play, but showing up for a King track race with new "slower" motors while others use up their inventory of older "faster" motors doesn't sound like much fun.


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#57 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:26 PM

wire 1.jpg

 

wire 2.jpg

 

wire 3.jpg

 

wire 4.jpg


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#58 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:41 PM

Tim,

 

I think you are viewing a much smaller sphere and are also focused on this particular situation as it effects you personally.

 

I was speaking in general. Consider how many guys race T-Jets compared to how many race Unlimited HO cars. You can see the same effect in 1/24 racing over the last several decades in stamped steel vs wing.

 

Now consider this: lets say hypothetically that IRRA® delists the 7Rs, and JK has to eat or otherwise dispose of a large number of them (that he prepaid for and cannot return) because they can no longer be sold for Retro racing. If that situation were to occur a couple more times, I strongly believe JK would find something better to do with his time and money and we'd have no motors or have to go back to the TSR (until they ran out).


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#59 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:45 PM

Rick,

 

While I believe, by the resistance readings you posted, and the ones I took, that the wire is smaller (on at least some), even before I saw what Tim posted on Facebook SCRT, I didn't believe he would take micrometer readings as gospel (especially yours, with a Retro Hawk with a circle and line through it somewhere on your FB page :laugh2: )

 

This is early on.

 

Let Tim find out proof on his own and lets see what the result is.

 

My (continued) personal opinion, hand-outs seem to be the answer.


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#60 Butters37

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:51 PM

Love the hand-out idea, Swiss.
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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:51 PM

My (continued) personal opinion, hand-outs seem to be the answer.


I also believe hand-outs is likely the most viable solution at this time.
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#62 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:04 PM

Again, there has to be some reasonable expectations from the racers as well.


We don't see a whole lot of that in this hobby, do we?

Bring your own motor: "I have to buy too many motors to find a fast one, because they're so inconsistent."

Hand-out motors: "I never know whether I am going to get a fast hand-out motor, because they're so inconsistent."

Which situation delivers a higher a level of the "perceived unfair advantage" Tim W. mentioned?

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#63 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:06 PM

I think you are viewing a much smaller sphere and are also focused on this particular situation as it effects you personally.
 
I was speaking in general. Consider how many guys race T-Jets compared to how many race Unlimited HO cars. You can see the same effect in 1/24 racing over the last several decades in stamped steel vs wing.
 
Now consider this: lets say hypothetically that IRRA®delists the 7Rs, and JK has to eat or otherwise dispose of a large number of them (that he prepaid for and cannot return) because they can no longer be sold for Retro racing. If that situation were to occur a couple more times, I strongly believe JK would find something better to do with his time and money and we'd have no motors or have to go back to the TSR (until they ran out).

 
Greg,
 
When you addressed me personally in a forum of my peers and use the word "nonsense" which translated can mean foolish, absurd or unintelligent, I'm going to respond. I'm a businessman and I know all about profit margin. The last thing I want to do is put a loyal company like JK Products in financial harm. However, the situation could have been handled differently. If Management knew in advance the product was "slower," let your clients know. We're grown men (and women) who can accommodate and make adjustments.


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#64 Half Fast

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:07 PM

Well, as for the "big" (i.e. Premier) races, 7R motors as hand-outs would work, possibly expanding the use to more than the Coupe classes, as there is usually ample time to break them in.

 

However for "local" races, such as Retro East, there would be little time to hand-out, break-in, and cut shafts on the motors. The last Retro East race ran past midnight, without hand-out motors.

 

Cheers,


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#65 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:34 PM

Love the hand-out idea, Swiss.

 

Again, to be perfectly clear, a personal musing, not any kind of official IRRA®  answer.

 

We don't see a whole lot of that in this hobby, do we?

Bring your own motor: "I have to buy too many motors to find a fast one, because they're so inconsistent."

Hand-out motors: "I never know whether I am going to get a fast hand-out motor, because they're so inconsistent."

Which situation delivers a higher a level of the "perceived unfair advantage" Tim W. mentioned?

 

LOL... good post, Greg.

 

My God, how the expectations of the slot car community have inched up over the years.

 

Somehow, back in the day, we bought USA made, Mura Intl 15 arms, plunked down our money, with about a 50% chance the shaft would be bent like a banana, guys raced Deathstars, we waited 1-1/2-2 months to find out all the results from the races.

 

As far as hand-outs, look at Howie's GTC Pro tech sheets from the last two Sanos.

 

20161024_194900-1.jpg

 

He bought one motor each year.

 

He won Sano 9, and he even though he was destined to be caught by me at Sano 10, even if he didn't blow up his controller, his one motor was still good enough to run fast race lap, showing off on blue, the first heat.

 

As he alluded to, I think on FB SCRT, with the sensible 110 gram weight minimum, if his motor had a little bit less bank speed, it probably meant it had a little timing, which would give him more brakes and punch, he could use with the heavier car, on my less than punched King.

 

To expect cheap restricted wind motors to all run the same on tracks that were designed for wing car world record breaking seems, again, like high expectations.


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#66 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 08:36 PM

When you addressed me personally in a forum of my peers and use the word "nonsense" which translated can mean foolish, absurd or unintelligent, I'm going to respond. I'm a businessman and I know all about profit margin. The last thing I want to do is put a loyal company like JK Products in financial harm. However, the situation could have been handled differently. If Management knew in advance the product was "slower," let your clients know. We're grown men (and women) who can accommodate and make adjustments.


Tim,

Again, I was speaking generally regarding slot cars and motors, thinking of the others in this thread and elsewhere who opine that going slower is bad in itself. I was not referencing the R vs 7R speed question or addressing you personally. I should have made that clearer and I apologize for not doing so.
 

If Management knew in advance the product was "slower"...


I don't think that was the case. JK has worked diligently to reduce the variability in the 7R motor and that means there will fewer dogs but, more importantly, also fewer rockets. Additionally, with a narrowed range of variability, the fastest 7R should be slower than the fastest R. And the slowest R slower than the slowest 7R, as well.
 
So if you're comparing your fastest R motors against the average (or even a rocket) 7R, the R may indeed be faster. I think most racers by now have culled their R motors such that their box isn't full of dog or even average R motors.
 
In fact, JK says the average 7R is faster, not slower, than the average R, which I surmise comes from the tighter balancing tolerance on the 7R.

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#67 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:01 PM

Greg,
 
No harm, no foul. Good night.

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#68 Phil Hackett

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:08 PM

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#69 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:09 PM

In fact, JK says the average 7R is faster, not slower, than the average R, which I surmise comes from the tighter balancing tolerance on the 7R.


Well yes, that would help in consistency, but certainly not prevent the rockets.
 
As far as avoiding the rockets, and more importantly, avoiding the duds, if I knew anything about electric motors, my guess would be, he has had the factory tighten up their range on both the high and low side of something, that may or may not rhyme with (coincidentally) "rhyming."


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#70 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:12 PM

Well, it appears it's time for a poll. No chit chat, just vote yes or no. See what the masses say?...
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#71 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:42 PM

Tim said he was changing things or something to tightening up the motor and making them more even. If he can do this with a cheap China motor he will become richer than his wildest dreams, could have even imagined. Nobody in 60 years has been able to accomplish this...


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#72 Jay Guard

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:43 PM

How about this as a possible (short term?) solution?

 

For IRRA races make the available-to-all "7R" Hawk Retro the required motor for what is probably the most "motor dependent" class, Can-Am.  For all of the other (theoretically) less motor dependent classes allow all Hawk Retros (except short shaft) for say all of 2017.  Thereafter only the "7R" motors will be legal.  This would allow the guys with a cache of "R" motors to either use them up or sell them to others during 2017.  It would also provide several classes that everyone would feel that they have equal quality motors.  Finally it would be easy to tech.

 

A perfect solution probably not, but I'm not sure there is a ideal solution in this case.


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#73 Jason Holmes

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:54 PM

Mike,

 

Come on, don't use Howie for your example. We all know his pennies cry when they leave him.  ;) He just got a good draw.

 

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#74 JimF

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:04 AM

Looking in from the outside, there's been a ton of talk and explanation but no one has offered a solution except Jay.
 
Yes, there's been a ton of justification of this or that and a lot of anecdotal stuff saying it doesn't matter because look at this result or that result. Fact is, it's nice that the new motors may be more consistent than the old ones. It's also nice that somebody went fast or even won a race with a new one. However, it appears clear that the new batch is demonstrably slower than the old. There's just too much evidence from very many credible sources to deny it.(And BTW... I agree if that matters a whit) So... there is a problem that has not been addressed yet (except via Jay's suggestion)
 
If everybody is running the newer, slower batch, it's all good and it doesn't matter if they are slower because everybody is in the same boat. I also agree that slower in general is not a bad thing. But... if some guys have a stash of older, faster ones, and are allowed to run them until they are used up... then everybody else that is reasonably serious about results may as well take the next couple years off. Seems to me that delisting the old ones or going to a hand-out system of only new ones (or do both) is about the only solution.
 
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#75 Rick

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:23 AM

It amazes me! How many times does a manufacturer have to bring forward out of spec products before the trust is breached? 1-2 7? Then we now have 2 BoD ready to hand the entire organization over to him and use his motors exclusively in their racing?? How about Falcon 7s for the hand outs, they have been constant for 10 years with no issues. The IRRA had no problem calling me out on new material not being within spec, even if it would have a made a better product for the same price. The rules are supposed or should be unilateral and no exceptions, variances  made still another time. If specs are subject to change or variances every time, then why even have them?.............


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#76 Samiam

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:25 AM

From the IRRA Motor Rules:

 

Notes:

1) Both the specified winds and wire sizes are nominal figures, with allowances for production variances to be permitted.

2) A protested FK motor (Falcon 7, Retro Hawk, and TSR D3) armature will be deemed legal if the sum of wire winds counted on all three poles is no less than 193 winds and if no single pole has less than 63 winds. In other words, a variance of -2 total wires winds from the nominal total winds spec will be permitted. For example, an FK armature with wire wind counts of 65, 64, 64 on the three poles would be deemed legal, as would an armature with wire wind counts of 65, 65, 63. An armature with wind counts of 65, 64, 63 would not be legal.

3) A protested Pro Slot PS4002 Chinese armature will be deemed legal if the sum of wire winds counted on all three poles is no less than 178 winds and if no single pole has less than 58 winds.

4) A protested Slick 7 Mini Brute armature will be deemed legal if the sum of wire winds counted on all three poles is no less than 244 winds and if no single pole has less than 80 winds.

5) The specified AWG wire sizes on all motors are nominal values and minor allowances from the exact AWG specification will be permitted at the discretion of the IRRA® Board of Directors.

If a manufacturer releases a new or modified version of a previously-approved IRRA® motor without informing the IRRA®of such changes, the IRRA®Board, at its discretion, may remove that motor from the list of motors approved for use in IRRA®competition. IRRA®also reserves the right to add new motors or to remove any previously-approved motor from the list of approved motors.

Any motors with changed specifications submitted for IRRA®approval must carry a new part number. The IRRA®reserves the right to ask manufacturers for unique tags and/or can markings for identification purposes on motors submitted for inclusion in the IRRA® approved motors list


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#77 MSwiss

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:53 AM

In regards to what Mike just posted, I always had great luck with the original yellow label Falcon 7's, but found the white label TSR motors to be slower on average, more consistent, and with better brakes. Sounds similar to the topic question and concern here.

  

Mike,To answer your question about what differences the BPR racers found in the Falcon 7s... general concensus was that the older orange label ones were faster but many people had white label ones that ran well also. I never had a fast Falcon 7 that lasted an entire race on the King track and they always seem to slow about half way through but many had some go all the way. I think Duran and Ben Jr have ran 350 laps out here with Falcon 7s. To me, the TSRs were unquestionably the best as you knew there were no "silver bullets" and you didn't need to waste your time and money searching for them... just a tad slower but exceptionally consistent and this is just not so with the Falcon 7s (or the Hawks). Just my opinion here and some racers will disagree with me about the TSRs but I think I'm being pretty objective. Over the years I have probably torn apart maybe 20-30 TSRs and Falcon 7s and they are virtually identical in construction and consistancy. 64, 65 or 66 turns of .0105" wire, (about 78") magnets, endbell and cans identical, the same armature and several years ago we checked the armature resistance and there were no issues with any variation. Except for the shafts, the old Falcon 7s and the newer Falcon 7s are absolutely the same so any real speed difference is probably just attributed to the speed difference in general with the Falcon 7s. In any discussion concerning any of these FK type motors I always remember that these are $13 Chinese motors

  

It amazes me! How many times does a manufacturer have to bring forward out of spec products before the trust is breached? 1-2 7? Then we now have 2 BoD ready to hand the entire organization over to him and use his motors exclusively in their racing?? How about Falcon 7s for the hand outs, they have been constant for 10 years with no issues. The IRRA had no problem calling me out on new material not being within spec, even if it would have a made a better product for the same price. The rules are supposed or should be unilateral and no exceptions, variances  made still another time. If specs are subject to change or variances every time, then why even have them?.............

 

Rick,

 

Go re-read your post in the morning after a couple of cups of coffee, and see what you're saying.

You're an expert on Falcon 7s, even though you've probably only raced them as hand-outs.

First of all, you tout their consistency, where Matt and Bryan have already pointed out their issues, i.e. 64, 65, and 66 turns.

Regardless, they weren't available for at least 9 months.

And you are really implying we should of let you skate on the material your vendor bamboozled you into believing was hardened brass, but was really copper.

Minor sidenote, it wouldn't have been superior. It's copper, not phos bronze.

PS: If we are to go by unilateral no exceptions/no discretion and are the JK shills you purport us to be, why didn't we use Pro Slot going from 80t, to 75t, on the Puppy Dog arm, without notifying us, as grounds to dump him for just JK Falcon 7s?


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#78 usadar

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 03:38 AM

I happen to have several old Retro Hawks kept in my motor box.
I have got an impression older Hawks are not always faster than the present ones.
Some of our racers raced with the present Hawks, going very fast on our Gerding King.

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#79 B.C.

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 08:20 AM

Puppy Dogs, anyone?


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#80 John Streisguth

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 08:46 AM

At 78 inches per pole, that works out to 6 meters per motor. For 10,000 motors and a total of 60,000 meters, that's probably less than a full spool of wire (we deal with spools of high tensile steel wire with up to 600,000 meters on each spool).  

 

A thought: if every batch of motors is "slightly different," what do you do, only allow the "current batch" at races? Well, that's one way to discourage people from buying hundreds of motors... maybe! (but not likely). At least if they do, it's with the knowledge beforehand that at some point the motors would become obsolete.  

 

As much as I hate to say it, maybe hand-outs at major events are the way to go, even though I hate the idea of that with every fiber in me. A couple of problems: what do you do about non-"major" events, i.e. regional/local series? And it also raises the cost of attending big races, which already is an issue for some people. I would predict a drop in attendance; maybe not significant, but I am sure that would happen.

 

Maybe the way to do it is turn in the motors at the end of each day, and the next day everyone gets to blind pick their motor for the day. Of course, then it sucks if you have that "rocket" on one day and get the dog the next.   :dash2:

 

No easy answer. But any decision regarding this should be made from a standpoint of thorough information, and not being a knee-jerk reaction.


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#81 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:01 AM

Are we really doing the motor things again?... No matter how much you shake and dance, the same guys will always run in the A Main.

 

Whether PDs, TS, F7, 1,000 dollar controllers the same talented, well-prepared racer will win races. It always is same mid-pack racer making all the noise because they can't find that one rocket motor that puts them in the A.

 

Look, guys, not everyone is destined to be a Howie, Edsel, Noose, Weaver, Grandi, etc. So quit blaming the motors!!!

Since going to Retro Hawks, regardless of which series of build, the racing has never been closer. Seven mains separated by only .5....

 

Stop, stop, stop this ridiculous BS. If you can't run fast at least you can build chassis LMFAO.

 

Regards,

 

JJ


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#82 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:15 AM

This is spec racing John. The point is valid. In rc I could buy 30 dollar stock motors......or 20 dollars at handout races tune with brushes and springs and be fast. Same as everyone else. But the motors were not near the differences seen in retro hawk racing or proslot fk. I wonder how I could buy trinity motors in rc for 30 and be consistent even with stock brushes but these cant be made that way. That's the odd thing to me. And all those motors were made in China for not much more than these.

The perception of fair and spec is where you are getting lost. That's where some have issues. We all know willy is fast. Everywhere on the track. We all know howie is fast. But the perception of going into a race with less chances is what bothers people. I can't beat willy on talent (yet). Nor can most as results have shown. But to say the playing field is level in spec racing on just a motor standpoint right now is just not true. It may be close is may show good results for people to post and brag about how close it is. But when 2 or 3 variations of the same motor are out there it is not truly fair. Like it or not agree or not that is what people are saying. Mental is a huge part of racing and so is perception. Not just lap times and driving
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#83 tonyp

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:18 AM

Trinity brushed motors were all made in Japan.


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#84 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:21 AM

Japan. Sorry tony I stand corrected. It's been awhile since the brushed days. But those motors were spot on every time you could have a rocket with a bit of tuning or guidance.
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#85 tonyp

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:24 AM

They also cost a lot more that FK motors. The Japanese quality of our motor company was fantastic. Mr Mori who owned Tokyo Mecs took real pride in what he produced.


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#86 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:30 AM

How much more could it truly be at this point? Would it be the 25 dollar range but have better motors being made with less issues. You know more about this than anyone. If it's a sealed motor same as the retro hawk but made in Japan what figure would you expect?
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#87 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:31 AM

I'm sorry but 12.95 compared to 29.99 or 34.99 isn't a lot to me and that's comparing a retro hawk to a trinity rc brushed motor in pricing
Jason Engel

#88 tonyp

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:39 AM

I doubt you'd find someone in Japan to make them due to quantity being so small. Making items in Japan today is pretty much on par cost wise as the USA. I would guess we'd be talking at least five times the OEM cost at a minimum to make in Japan with a 20 to 30 thousand piece minimum plus tooling.


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#89 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:42 AM

This is spec racing John. The point is valid. In rc I could buy 30 dollar stock motors......or 20 dollars at handout races tune with brushes and springs and be fast. Same as everyone else. But the motors were not near the differences seen in retro hawk racing or proslot fk. I wonder how I could buy trinity motors in rc for 30 and be consistent even with stock brushes but these cant be made that way. That's the odd thing to me. And all those motors were made in China for not much more than these.

The perception of fair and spec is where you are getting lost. That's where some have issues. We all know willy is fast. Everywhere on the track. We all know howie is fast. But the perception of going into a race with less chances is what bothers people. I can't beat willy on talent (yet). Nor can most as results have shown. But to say the playing field is level in spec racing on just a motor standpoint right now is just not true. It may be close is may show good results for people to post and brag about how close it is. But when 2 or 3 variations of the same motor are out there it is not truly fair. Like it or not agree or not that is what people are saying. Mental is a huge part of racing and so is perception. Not just lap times and driving

 

Jason, for winning nothing more than bragging rights??? Are you all kidding me?? What good is having the fastest motor if A) your car isn't set up right and B) you don't have Matt Bruce's finger? All you're going to do is fall off more!!! It's the driving!!! Duh...

 

I prove it at every race when I let a pro check my car and they run it 2 to 3 tenths faster than me.

 

Winners race – losers whine!!!


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#90 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 11:08 AM

What does it mean when you sleep then? Lol just messing John. All I'm saying is the mental side of racing is a big part. If you go into a race feeling like you are slower then odds are at the race you will be slow. Not just because of motor buy car tires etc. you won't have the same drive as if you felt like you had the speed of the fast guys. Mentality is a big part of any racing
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#91 slotcarone

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 11:08 AM

JJ has hit the nail on the head IMO! Sure the motors vary but it's more about set-up and driving than just motors.


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#92 eshorer

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 11:49 AM

Sad to say, there's no ideal solution. It's slot car RACING, and racing means people want to win. If it's not motors, it'll be tires (treating them or using rubber that others can't get), or something else. Hand-out motors in the major races will help in leveling the playing field, and certainly make the racing more affordable. But next there will be a cry for hand-out tires. And still, the fast guys (owing to setup and driving) will be in the A Main. 

 

Eddie


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#93 Rick Moore

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 12:25 PM

The matter of who wins, the better drivers, or the best set-up for a particular design/chassis on a particular track under its current conditions, are adjunct to the subject being discussed concerning disparities in manufacture and performance of a spec motor being used for class racing. Direct observations, verifiable conclusions, and, when needed, mutually acceptable resolutions are the only matters of concern in this regard.
 
To this purpose I’ll offer my own observations on the matter of the Retro Hawk motors, which I had posted elsewhere, for the perusal of others, and with the hope it might be of some interest or benefit here. I currently have an even 50 RH’s in my inventory, though it should be noted some of the older “worst” motors are no longer “among the living”…
 
  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 
I honestly never paid that close of attention to any markings on these R-Hawk motors, as I’ll just break them in and run them to see how they compare to the others. Of course I do ID number them for my own reference. The “fast” become “race” motors, the “fair” become “practice” motors or “project” motors, and the “slow” become, well, junk; the “worst” are typically subjected to cruel and unusual experimentation or torture.
 
But, now with all this brouhaha, I went back and looked at the markings on these motors to see if there was any correlation to how I have them sorted. As they date back to when the RH’s first became available (since due to my peculiar schedule I rarely race, and hence have used them sparingly), there are four sets of markings on my RH motors in my current inventory:
 
“(no markings)”: The oldest; wide range, from fast to slow.
“MADE IN CHINA”: Second oldest; range from fair to worst.
“R MADE IN CHINA”: Bought this year; the most consistent, and the outright fastest (all but one faster than all others, and it is as fast as the best of the others).
“7R 7R 7R 7R 7R MADE IN CHINA”: Most recent; range from fair to worst, but all slower than the best of the rest.
 
These are my limited and objective observations. (And the only dog I have in this fight cares more about the pizza than the slot cars…)
 
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#94 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 12:54 PM

It amazes me! How many times does a manufacturer have to bring forward out of spec products before the trust is breached?


Until all the data is in, it is not correct to claim that JK has brought an out-of-spec product to market.

The 7R motor, with the possible exception of the wire size and I believe that is being looked at with more accurate measuring equipment than a vernier micrometer, adheres to all applicable IRRA® motor specifications as far as I know.

To the best of my knowledge, the differences between the R and the updated 7R involves only tolerances, not specifications. If JK is now requiring the manufacturer to adhere to a 3 degree timing variance from nominal, rather than the former 6 degrees (hypothetical numbers), that is not a specification change.

JK has worked hard to narrow the tolerances of various parameters on the 7R motor for the sole purpose of raising the motor-to-motor consistency in performance and all some of your guys wanted to do is bitch, piss, and moan. It's a familiar situation and occurs every time the BoD has to address and issue or a problem.

 

It's a good thing the five guys on the BoD want to run IRRA® out of the goodness of our hearts and our own pockets because, speaking only for myself, you couldn't pay me enough to do it as a job.


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#95 John Streisguth

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:22 PM

Interesting information, Rick. By contrast, my best motors are all the "Made is China," without the R. Most of the R motors have been very reluctant to break-in. I have four 7R motors but they have not seen a track yet.

 

Correction: my fastest are China R motor, but they are older ones, at least a year old.  The ones I purchased in May 2016 have been difficult to get going


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#96 kvanpelt

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:29 PM

It seems to me tightening the tolerances will drive the cost of finding the magic bullet up, not down.

 

Racers can be their own worst enemy when it comes to finding fast motors! Buying 10, 20, 30, 40... motors at a time, hundreds of dollars for motor analyzers, etc.

 

I'll bet most of us can't remember without going back and looking, who won Sano 4 F1, R4-3 Can am, or Retropalooza 5 Coupe races except for the guy that won them. Nobody really cares once the race is over.

 

Go to a race, do your best, and have a good time. Enjoy life and racing with our friends while we still can.

 

I sure miss racing with Bob Oaks, Jimmie Bostrum, Manta Ray and Sano Dave!!!


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#97 Rick Moore

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:01 PM

John, just goes to show ya, huh? I actually destroyed some of the "MADE IN CHINA" motors, they were so anemic (and their abuse gave me some warped sense of enjoyment, though even at that price I would not recommended it for everyone). I'll be curious to see how your "R..." motors perform once you coerce them past their obstinate reluctance. I agree with the "hard" to break in, as I noticed some were "harder" than others, but again I wasn't really paying attention to which were which at that time, and it is relative. From talking to and reading the comments of others, I'll admit my break in procedure is a bit "harder" than that of others: 2 minutes at 3v in water, clear-clean-dry-oil, 3 minutes at 5v in air. I've never seen the brushes not set using this more extreme break in (though a few with apparently softer brushes wore down a lot, but I figured their life-spans were suspect anyway), and, as it now appears, that would include all 10 of the "R MADE IN CHINA" labeled motors I have. I have 20 of the "7R..." motors here, and in light of the information coming out will probably put it on my O2IT list to make the effort to start assessing them in my cars (I have "a few"...) next time on the track and noting their relative performance...  ;)



#98 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:02 PM

It seems to me tightening the tolerances will drive the cost of finding the magic bullet up, not down.


You'll have to explain this statement to me, KVP. I see it just the opposite.

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#99 tonyp

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:31 PM

Me, too.


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#100 kvanpelt

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:36 PM

It is impossible to produce all equal motors. If there are fewer magic bullets in the production run, the deep pockets will speed more money trying to get those. It is like that in all spec racing, whether slots, R/C or 1:1.

 

We have already heard the stories of 50-100 motor purchases.


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