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#51 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 04:59 PM

While the original concern was that they were slower, it was confirmed that there was a difference in wire size, correct? The OEM confirmed willingly that they were aware of the performance difference as well (though minor on their side). In QC validation it is all about equals, is it not? One step at a time with this. If all variables are the same and in fact a batch was grossly slower and easily proven, then since there is not a lot of options of motor choice there needs to be a easy solution. To me simply adding weight to the faster batch of motors would be an easy remedy to start if we are simply concerned about straightaway speed. Works for 1:1 racing until things get sorted out.
 
Again, there has to be some reasonable expectations from the racers as well.


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#52 Samiam

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:41 PM

I am not saying dictate, I am saying verify the specs. It has been admitted that there is a wire difference. This could have been caught with a simple verification process. I realize we are dealing with third party manufacturing and I am not faulting Tim whatsoever. Just saying there may need to be a process to make the randomness not so random.

 

 

Anyone here speak Chinese?


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#53 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:41 PM

Tim,

Your above post suggests you are not aware of how getting these motors produced in China happens. Stopping production is not an option.

And this slower vs faster motor nonsense is just that. Faster does not mean "better." In fact, faster works to reduce participation in slot racing in many instances.
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#54 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:47 PM

While the original concern was that they were slower, it was confirmed that there was a difference in wire size, correct?
Rick said yes(not sure what was used to measure), Bryan said not as far as he could tell (with his micrometer). Tim JK doesn't have anything accurate enough to comment.


The only way to accurately measure wire is chemically strip the insulation and use a laser micrometer. In a pinch, a real good optical comparator might work.

I just metered (all three unused) two 7Rs  and got approx. .520 readings, on both, and one R, with approx. a .500 reading.
 
Not a good sample size, but in my personal opinion, factoring in everything I've read, the wire dimension on at least a portion of the 7Rs, is a tiny bit smaller.


The OEM confirmed willingly that they were aware of the performance difference as well (though minor on their side). In QC validation it is all about equals, is it not? One step at a time with this. If all variables are the same and in fact a batch was grossly slower and easily proven, then since there is not a lot of options of motor choice there needs to be a easy solution.
 
To me simply adding weight to the faster batch of motors would be an easy remedy to start if we are simply concerned about straightaway speed. Works for 1:1 racing until things get sorted out.


Yes, if we were just concerned about straightaway speed. But i think anyone who has raced against against someone with a heavier car and a faster motor, they will attest it's not quite fair. :laugh2:


Again, there has to be some reasonable expectations from the racers as well.


I don't know, if indeed the wire size is on the small side, if JK has a beef where he could expect some relief from the manufacturer.


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#55 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 05:50 PM

RH lives matter. The ones I have behave differently at each of the four tracks we run in Florida. Then again, the guy in the Sonic TV commercials think we are a different planet - we kinda are since travelling racers never come here. I don't always use ink, but when I do, I prefer it on my RH. Please don't make me throw away good motors.


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#56 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:19 PM

Your above post suggests you are not aware of how getting these motors produced in China happens. Stopping production is not an option.

And this slower vs faster motor nonsense is just that. Faster does not mean "better." In fact, faster works to reduce participation in slot racing in many instances.

 

Greg,

 

Nonsense? Stopping production may not have been an option but distributing the motors for sale was.

 

I disagree with your comment that "faster works to reduce participation in slot racing." What works to reduce participation is a perceived unfair advantage. If I used up all my older version Hawk Retro motors that were 3-5 tenths faster on the King track than what I can buy at the counter at Buena Park Raceway, that in time, will not only reduce my participation but others as well. I'll race the flat track where driving skills are much more in play, but showing up for a King track race with new "slower" motors while others use up their inventory of older "faster" motors doesn't sound like much fun.


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#57 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:26 PM

wire 1.jpg

 

wire 2.jpg

 

wire 3.jpg

 

wire 4.jpg


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#58 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:41 PM

Tim,

 

I think you are viewing a much smaller sphere and are also focused on this particular situation as it effects you personally.

 

I was speaking in general. Consider how many guys race T-Jets compared to how many race Unlimited HO cars. You can see the same effect in 1/24 racing over the last several decades in stamped steel vs wing.

 

Now consider this: lets say hypothetically that IRRA® delists the 7Rs, and JK has to eat or otherwise dispose of a large number of them (that he prepaid for and cannot return) because they can no longer be sold for Retro racing. If that situation were to occur a couple more times, I strongly believe JK would find something better to do with his time and money and we'd have no motors or have to go back to the TSR (until they ran out).


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#59 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:45 PM

Rick,

 

While I believe, by the resistance readings you posted, and the ones I took, that the wire is smaller (on at least some), even before I saw what Tim posted on Facebook SCRT, I didn't believe he would take micrometer readings as gospel (especially yours, with a Retro Hawk with a circle and line through it somewhere on your FB page :laugh2: )

 

This is early on.

 

Let Tim find out proof on his own and lets see what the result is.

 

My (continued) personal opinion, hand-outs seem to be the answer.


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#60 Butters37

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:51 PM

Love the hand-out idea, Swiss.
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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:51 PM

My (continued) personal opinion, hand-outs seem to be the answer.


I also believe hand-outs is likely the most viable solution at this time.
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#62 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:04 PM

Again, there has to be some reasonable expectations from the racers as well.


We don't see a whole lot of that in this hobby, do we?

Bring your own motor: "I have to buy too many motors to find a fast one, because they're so inconsistent."

Hand-out motors: "I never know whether I am going to get a fast hand-out motor, because they're so inconsistent."

Which situation delivers a higher a level of the "perceived unfair advantage" Tim W. mentioned?

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#63 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:06 PM

I think you are viewing a much smaller sphere and are also focused on this particular situation as it effects you personally.
 
I was speaking in general. Consider how many guys race T-Jets compared to how many race Unlimited HO cars. You can see the same effect in 1/24 racing over the last several decades in stamped steel vs wing.
 
Now consider this: lets say hypothetically that IRRA®delists the 7Rs, and JK has to eat or otherwise dispose of a large number of them (that he prepaid for and cannot return) because they can no longer be sold for Retro racing. If that situation were to occur a couple more times, I strongly believe JK would find something better to do with his time and money and we'd have no motors or have to go back to the TSR (until they ran out).

 
Greg,
 
When you addressed me personally in a forum of my peers and use the word "nonsense" which translated can mean foolish, absurd or unintelligent, I'm going to respond. I'm a businessman and I know all about profit margin. The last thing I want to do is put a loyal company like JK Products in financial harm. However, the situation could have been handled differently. If Management knew in advance the product was "slower," let your clients know. We're grown men (and women) who can accommodate and make adjustments.


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#64 Half Fast

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:07 PM

Well, as for the "big" (i.e. Premier) races, 7R motors as hand-outs would work, possibly expanding the use to more than the Coupe classes, as there is usually ample time to break them in.

 

However for "local" races, such as Retro East, there would be little time to hand-out, break-in, and cut shafts on the motors. The last Retro East race ran past midnight, without hand-out motors.

 

Cheers,


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#65 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 07:34 PM

Love the hand-out idea, Swiss.

 

Again, to be perfectly clear, a personal musing, not any kind of official IRRA®  answer.

 

We don't see a whole lot of that in this hobby, do we?

Bring your own motor: "I have to buy too many motors to find a fast one, because they're so inconsistent."

Hand-out motors: "I never know whether I am going to get a fast hand-out motor, because they're so inconsistent."

Which situation delivers a higher a level of the "perceived unfair advantage" Tim W. mentioned?

 

LOL... good post, Greg.

 

My God, how the expectations of the slot car community have inched up over the years.

 

Somehow, back in the day, we bought USA made, Mura Intl 15 arms, plunked down our money, with about a 50% chance the shaft would be bent like a banana, guys raced Deathstars, we waited 1-1/2-2 months to find out all the results from the races.

 

As far as hand-outs, look at Howie's GTC Pro tech sheets from the last two Sanos.

 

20161024_194900-1.jpg

 

He bought one motor each year.

 

He won Sano 9, and he even though he was destined to be caught by me at Sano 10, even if he didn't blow up his controller, his one motor was still good enough to run fast race lap, showing off on blue, the first heat.

 

As he alluded to, I think on FB SCRT, with the sensible 110 gram weight minimum, if his motor had a little bit less bank speed, it probably meant it had a little timing, which would give him more brakes and punch, he could use with the heavier car, on my less than punched King.

 

To expect cheap restricted wind motors to all run the same on tracks that were designed for wing car world record breaking seems, again, like high expectations.


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#66 Cheater

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 08:36 PM

When you addressed me personally in a forum of my peers and use the word "nonsense" which translated can mean foolish, absurd or unintelligent, I'm going to respond. I'm a businessman and I know all about profit margin. The last thing I want to do is put a loyal company like JK Products in financial harm. However, the situation could have been handled differently. If Management knew in advance the product was "slower," let your clients know. We're grown men (and women) who can accommodate and make adjustments.


Tim,

Again, I was speaking generally regarding slot cars and motors, thinking of the others in this thread and elsewhere who opine that going slower is bad in itself. I was not referencing the R vs 7R speed question or addressing you personally. I should have made that clearer and I apologize for not doing so.
 

If Management knew in advance the product was "slower"...


I don't think that was the case. JK has worked diligently to reduce the variability in the 7R motor and that means there will fewer dogs but, more importantly, also fewer rockets. Additionally, with a narrowed range of variability, the fastest 7R should be slower than the fastest R. And the slowest R slower than the slowest 7R, as well.
 
So if you're comparing your fastest R motors against the average (or even a rocket) 7R, the R may indeed be faster. I think most racers by now have culled their R motors such that their box isn't full of dog or even average R motors.
 
In fact, JK says the average 7R is faster, not slower, than the average R, which I surmise comes from the tighter balancing tolerance on the 7R.

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#67 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:01 PM

Greg,
 
No harm, no foul. Good night.

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#68 Phil Hackett

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:08 PM

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#69 MSwiss

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:09 PM

In fact, JK says the average 7R is faster, not slower, than the average R, which I surmise comes from the tighter balancing tolerance on the 7R.


Well yes, that would help in consistency, but certainly not prevent the rockets.
 
As far as avoiding the rockets, and more importantly, avoiding the duds, if I knew anything about electric motors, my guess would be, he has had the factory tighten up their range on both the high and low side of something, that may or may not rhyme with (coincidentally) "rhyming."


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#70 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:12 PM

Well, it appears it's time for a poll. No chit chat, just vote yes or no. See what the masses say?...
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#71 Rick

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:42 PM

Tim said he was changing things or something to tightening up the motor and making them more even. If he can do this with a cheap China motor he will become richer than his wildest dreams, could have even imagined. Nobody in 60 years has been able to accomplish this...


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#72 Jay Guard

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:43 PM

How about this as a possible (short term?) solution?

 

For IRRA races make the available-to-all "7R" Hawk Retro the required motor for what is probably the most "motor dependent" class, Can-Am.  For all of the other (theoretically) less motor dependent classes allow all Hawk Retros (except short shaft) for say all of 2017.  Thereafter only the "7R" motors will be legal.  This would allow the guys with a cache of "R" motors to either use them up or sell them to others during 2017.  It would also provide several classes that everyone would feel that they have equal quality motors.  Finally it would be easy to tech.

 

A perfect solution probably not, but I'm not sure there is a ideal solution in this case.


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#73 Jason Holmes

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:54 PM

Mike,

 

Come on, don't use Howie for your example. We all know his pennies cry when they leave him.  ;) He just got a good draw.

 

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#74 JimF

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:04 AM

Looking in from the outside, there's been a ton of talk and explanation but no one has offered a solution except Jay.
 
Yes, there's been a ton of justification of this or that and a lot of anecdotal stuff saying it doesn't matter because look at this result or that result. Fact is, it's nice that the new motors may be more consistent than the old ones. It's also nice that somebody went fast or even won a race with a new one. However, it appears clear that the new batch is demonstrably slower than the old. There's just too much evidence from very many credible sources to deny it.(And BTW... I agree if that matters a whit) So... there is a problem that has not been addressed yet (except via Jay's suggestion)
 
If everybody is running the newer, slower batch, it's all good and it doesn't matter if they are slower because everybody is in the same boat. I also agree that slower in general is not a bad thing. But... if some guys have a stash of older, faster ones, and are allowed to run them until they are used up... then everybody else that is reasonably serious about results may as well take the next couple years off. Seems to me that delisting the old ones or going to a hand-out system of only new ones (or do both) is about the only solution.
 
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#75 Rick

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 01:23 AM

It amazes me! How many times does a manufacturer have to bring forward out of spec products before the trust is breached? 1-2 7? Then we now have 2 BoD ready to hand the entire organization over to him and use his motors exclusively in their racing?? How about Falcon 7s for the hand outs, they have been constant for 10 years with no issues. The IRRA had no problem calling me out on new material not being within spec, even if it would have a made a better product for the same price. The rules are supposed or should be unilateral and no exceptions, variances  made still another time. If specs are subject to change or variances every time, then why even have them?.............


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