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#101 old & gray

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:37 PM

It seems to me tightening the tolerances will drive the cost of finding the magic bullet up, not down.

 

I agree. If there are 10 bullets, 10 duds, and 80 average motors; then tightening tolerances would result in 2 bullets, 2 duds, and 96 average motors.

If you have to find a bullet to make your day, then you will need to buy more motors to find your bullet.

 

The only winners with tightened tolerances are people who are willing to race with equal motors (now turning off sarcasm font)


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#102 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:43 PM

The error in your thinking, KVP, is that there aren't fewer rockets.

 

Assume 10,000 motors that vary 5% from slowest to fastest and assume motor-to-motor variances are equally distributed throughout the production run.

 

Now consider 10,000 motors that vary 3% from top to bottom, again with variances equally distributed throughout the run.

 

There will be the same percentage of motors at the top and at the bottom in both cases. The number of either will not change, only the difference between the fastest and slowest.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#103 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:54 PM

You can also assume the distribution of the variances in each motor batch are represnted by the bell curve, if you wish.

Going from a 5% variance to 3% just narrows the curve along the baseline and makes it more veritical. There are still the same 10,000 under that curve and not significantly fewer number of rockets. In fact there may be a few more just below the fastest because of the increased slope of the narrow, more vertical bell curve.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#104 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 03:08 PM

Cheater,

 

The only thing that may vary your statement is that JK has said that the new batch will be slower than the older style. Even bullet to bullet. The average motor may be closer in this new style but the speed will still be down when you compare the top percent of the 7R to the R.

The precident was set with the Puppy Dogs. Why not use that same idea and go through the season and in the fall starting with the Sano just use only this batch of motors and not allow the R motors at Premier races? Let the series then decide which is best for their racers on whether to follow or make their own decision on a time frame. As long as Tim at JK will be doing all motors like this in the future there should be no issue.


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Jason Engel

#105 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 03:46 PM

The only thing that may vary your statement is that JK has said that the new batch will be slower than the older style.


Butters,

That is not what JK has said. Please point me to where that has been posted anywhere.
 
Here's the graph he posted at Facebook:
 
jk.jpg
 
And the text that accompanied it:

"Here is what we think you (and others) are seeing. When we reduced the variability in our motors, we didn't want to make the motor faster, just much more consistent. As you indicated, within the 7Rs, the motors are very consistent. That means the older motors were less consistent, and that's true. Here is the rub, the fastest of the older R motors is faster than the fastest of the new 7Rs as the picture shows."

Further points:

1) Note that the average 7R is faster than the average R.

2) Racers have made it very clear over the last few years that they overwhelmingly desired a more consistent sealed motor and JK has spent ten of thousands of dollars in response to that request, only to run into another firestorm of complaints.
3) To make the fastest 7R equal to the fastest R would have required a change in spec, like dropping some winds from the arm or more timing and he couldn't take that approach under IRRA® rules.
 
Your suggestions as to how to proceed forward have been heard, as well as those of many others. As Mike McMasters posted in his R4/10 motor announcement thread, "There will be a solution."
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#106 Dan Ebert

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 03:52 PM

Let's talk about this in six months when the next batch comes out. This seems to be a big topic every six months to a year. Same bitch, same tears, same BS.


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#107 Noose

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:04 PM

Same people.
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#108 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:08 PM

Forgive someone for suggesting that the IRRA® use the same methods that they used for the Puppy Dog... my bad, Greg.


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#109 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:12 PM

Butters,

 

I said your suggestion has been heard and will be considered along with the other suggestions that have been made. What more do you want today?


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#110 kvanpelt

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:46 PM

Same people.

 

Different day! :)


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#111 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:50 PM

Putting down racers that bring up their legitimate concerns is not the way to solve this problem. It's been verified by the manufacturer than the fastest of the motors are the R motor which the racing community can no longer buy. Yet a good number of racers still have these motors of unknown quantity in their boxes.

 

That is a concern not to be taken lightly. For those of you who want to minimize this issue, feel free to run your 7R motors in all your races while others with the fastest R motors blow past you.  Maybe eating some crow for a while will do you some good.


"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#112 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:56 PM

TIm,

 

I'm not seeing anyone putting down racers in any signficant way. Want to point out the posts in this thread that you feel do that?

Many seem to want the BoD to make a quick snap-judgement ruling here and that isn't going to happen.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#113 Samiam

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:59 PM

I don't care about any of this. I will buy a motor, run it in, and race it.

 

There is absolutely no money to be made winning an IRRA® race. It is supposed to be fun. Let's not make this "No Fun." 

 

:(


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#114 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:03 PM

Here's one.


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#115 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:10 PM

Really? What person or group is it putting down?


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#116 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:27 PM

Just some of the comments for you, Greg. I'm surprised you haven't spotted them unless you're leaning so far to one side that you find it hard to right yourself to the middle. These comments are put downs, trying the marginalize a different viewpoint.

 

"Stop, stop, stop this ridiculous BS"

 

"Winners race – losers whine!!!"

 

"Same bitch, same tears, same BS."

 

"Same people."

 

"Different day!"


"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#117 Cheater

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:32 PM

Sorry, these don't qualify under the dictionary I use. Well, maybe the second one a little, but there's no names attached and only generic groups are mentioned.
 
   noun
1. a landing of an aircraft.

2. Informal.

  • a disparaging, belittling, or snubbing remark.
  • a remark or act intended to humiliate or embarrass someone.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#118 Noose

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:35 PM

When the same people bitch about the same thing time and time again because they aren't winning it makes you kind of hesitant to take one post and declare it gospel.

As far as I am concerned right now the charts were all predictive data and not actual results.


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#119 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 06:04 PM

So the spec is nominal 5, with a realistic variation of probably 10 to -2, with haphazard balancing. Now Mr JK sees the big variation and guys complaining so he calls Mister Fong and says look dude the spec is 5 degrees, and balance them closer to zero. I know they are only 1 dollar motors... So now the motors have a tighter tollerance to spec and we still bitching. I don;t consider it a new spec motor its just built to a tighter tolerence.
 
In Retro East we are seeing 32 or more in each class since we went to Hawks, attendance is booming. I love it. Nothing is perfect but we are getting closer LOL.


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#120 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 06:05 PM

Sorry, these don't qualify under the dictionary I use. Well, maybe the second one a little, but there's no names attached and only generic groups are mentioned.
 
   noun
1. a landing of an aircraft.

2. Informal.

  • a disparaging, belittling, or snubbing remark.
  • a remark or act intended to humiliate or embarrass someone.

If one chooses to agree with a disparaging remark, it's as if they said it themselves. Slotblog is a community in which far more people read posts than comment on them.

 

Time will tell how all this settles out. I have a feeling far more racers than you think share the same concern that I and others have pointed out.


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#121 MSwiss

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 06:17 PM

Tim W,

 

Please go read post #78 and you might realize why we are a bit cranky on this.

 

A few additional points.

 

We are not the manufacturer.

 

JK has to figure what exactly has happened, contact his vendor, and it's up to them how they will proceed.

 

Until we know that, we really can't do anything.

 

IMO, if there is a problem, it was from a minuscule smaller batch of wire, not Tim having his vendor tighten up the variations of balancing and timing.

 

I'm not sure how some racers expect us to make instant judgements. We came up with guidelines to hold races, which regional orgs, raceways, and racers can choose to follow or not follow.

 

We are not paid employees of the racers, but by the tone of some of these posts, some seem to think we are.

 

Tim,

 

I'm curious why you're seeking the solution to this situation from us?

 

AFAIK, you don't attend any events that use our rules.

 

Why aren't you quizzing the SCRRA officials?


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#122 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 07:05 PM

I'm curious why you're seeking the solution to this situation from us?
 
AFAIK, you don't attend any events that use our rules.
 
Why aren't you quizzing the SCRRA officials?

 
Mike,

Regarding post #78, I have no knowledge of the past history between your group and this individual so I'll leave it at that.  

This is a new issue for me and I don't recall bringing up a concern about motors in the past. "
Motor Question" was the title of this thread and it involved the Hawk Retro 7R of which I have purchased seven to date with sub-standard results in the Retro classes I race. I saw a pattern forming and brought up the matter a couple of weeks ago and was assured that there was indeed some fast 7R motors out there so I dropped the matter. Now this thread appears informing me the manufacturer admits the fastest of the R motors are indeed faster than the fastest of the 7R motors. This is a problem. What also is a problem is that I and many others have been buying up these 7R motors with no resource to buy any more of the R motors.
 
For the most part, I see the racers with the same concerns as I have being respectful, patient and even offering up some suggestions.  For that in some cases they have been treated in a condescending way.
 
Regarding, the SCRRA BoD, I'm sure they have followed recent events and will do the right thing at the proper time. I've probably spent too much time in this thread so I will refrain from any further comments.


"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#123 MSwiss

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 07:54 PM

Tim,

 

I'm sorry, but it's as if you didn't read my post.

We are NOT the manufacturer.

Until we know how he is going to proceed, we can't do anything.

And no, people are not being patient.

This came to light on Thursday, not a month ago.

As far as your comment "Regarding, the SCRRA BoD, I'm sure they have followed recent events and will do the right thing at the proper time," it appears you feel the proper time for us and the proper time for the SCRRA are two different things.


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#124 Phil Hackett

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:26 PM

:popcorm1:  :popcorm1:  :popcorm1:  Hold on... gotta make more...  :popcorm1: :popcorm1: :popcorm1: 


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#125 Mark Wampler

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:11 PM

:)


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#126 Cheater

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:17 PM

Cost, more than anything else. Would you willing pay $40-50 for a similar sealed motor?

 

The other question is whether there are any US companies who can actually make a similar motor. Probably, but not real certain. There are a lot of manufacturing nices in the US that simply don't exist here any more, examples being electronics like TVs, shoes, textiles, etc.

 

There's a third factor, I think. These so-called FK motors are a standard Chinese motor form factor, with tooling for a good percentage of the components already on hand. I believe to have them made in the US, new tooling for every part would have to be made and paid for, further ramping up the cost.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#127 Mark Wampler

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:58 PM

:dash2:


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#128 MSwiss

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:58 PM

Add Sam Rackham's F1 win at BP, on the Gerding King, as another racer with a stellar performance, using the new 7R motor.

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#129 Noose

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:02 PM

If I recall, even Mabuchi did not want to get into making FK motors for this. Not at these low volumes. Haruki can correct me.

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#130 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:23 PM

Team Trujillo won the Boola Bash 3-Hour Enduro at BPR last weekend using a single Hawk 7R.
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#131 Cheater

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:24 PM

I've brought this up before. I think with good competition among jobbers, that cost could be in the $25 to $30 range. If it's about jobs, then let's be patriots and support made in US products. If we even need to ditch FK types altogether, I would be in favor. I don't think even with retooling, that an American-made FK would last that must longer than a Chinese, but it should be explored. Heat reduction and brush wear would be top priority.


Mark,

FWIW my stab-in-dark, off-the-cuff, based on no real data estimate is that someone would have to come up with $75,000-$100,000 minimum to make this happen, depending on the required initial order. It could be more, depending on the tooling costs.

Go for it, if you have the funds available. I certainly don't.

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#132 tonyp

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:28 PM

Greg,

You are probably really close on the tooling costs and initial order. I would project a $30.00 OEM cost per unit.
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#133 Cheater

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:35 PM

$30 unit cost would mean a really ugly retail price after dist and retailer mark-ups. Not do-able at all IMO.
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#134 Cap Henry

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:36 PM

I have a solution. Any old Hawk that podiums in any Main is smashed with a big hammer. Removing from the car is optional and at tech guys judgement... LOL.
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#135 Noose

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:37 PM

The SCPCA might have something to say about that, Cap. Heh-heh.
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#136 MSwiss

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:38 PM

I've brought this up before. I think with good competition among jobbers, that cost could be in the $25 to $30 range. If it's about jobs, then let's be patriots and support made in US products. If we even need to ditch FK types altogether, I would be in favor. I don't think even with retooling, that an American-made FK would last that must longer than a Chinese, but it should be explored. Heat reduction and brush wear would be top priority.


This is silly.

Koford and Pro Slot are already using Chinese-sourced components for their low and medium priced motors.

If you think you can convince them to ditch their existing Chinese tooling and to spend a lot more money, to satisfy your 100% Made in USA fantasy, you need to get a grip on reality.
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#137 Dan Ebert

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:03 PM

Ahhhhhhh, lets review some history, boys and girls. We had a motor with an American-wound arms. It was inconsistent as hell. The fast guys were buying anywhere from 30 to 100 motors just to find those few bullets. Anyone that denies this is just full of crap. 

So what makes anyone think stepping back to that will do any good or help? I would rather spend my 13 dollars on a turd than $50. Plus get duped into a refurb and new brushes to polish that turd. Thanks, but no thanks.
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GallerymanDan

#138 Cap Henry

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:09 PM

I'd personally like to see a totally sealed motor such as the Hawk, but with increased consistency, even if it cost $30-$35. No refurbers or anyone working on them.

But let's get a solution to the current "problem."

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#139 JerseyJohn

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:10 PM

Mark,

My thoughts here. So we now are all running rocket motors, super fast mutant demons one and all. And behold the same 16 guys are up front, yet again, with the same bunch trailing them. The same complainers are screaming they must have the super duper mutant motor. So everyone goes faster to the same conclusion.

We have been doing the motor dance for years. Puppy Dogs, then F7, then TSR, then PDFK now RH and RH7.

In conclusion: winners race, losers whine, and the rest of us have fun.


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#140 Noose

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:22 PM

Mark,

You race in NorCal right and on occasion at BPR. Isn't the motor of choice in NorCal something totally different than a Hawk Retro, TSR, or F7?

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#141 Pappy

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:23 PM

The other question is whether there are any US companies who can actually make a similar motor.


Havlicek's House of H-Power could do it, I know he can.  :)  :dance4:
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Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
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#142 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 02:57 PM

Imagine if we manufacturered a FK Hawk motor in the USA, at least we would get the brush orientation correct!!  :)


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#143 MSwiss

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 03:05 PM

Jerry Kulich approached the Chinese about that, and assured him they do it that way on purpose.

Mike Swiss
 
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#144 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 03:25 PM

Motor claiming rule... if someone is lucky enough to get a rocket, it will get passed on to someone else if they feel like ponying up the money. Then they may need another excuse as to why they didn't make the A main LOL.


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"Whatever..."

#145 Butters37

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 03:31 PM

Motor claims and protest worked pretty good in rc.....but the protest was the best I think it was 75 bucks motor was torn down completely (useless after this was done) and the motor was replaced if the racer was legal. Hilarious to watch. Not many actually did it as most of the time you just looked like a butt head. But when it was found illegal......lots of funny looks and whispers. Very entertaining either way.
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#146 MSwiss

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 03:58 PM

Motor claiming?

You would have to video tape the races to verify who was the first to yell out they wanted it. LOL.


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Mike Swiss
 
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#147 Samiam

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:17 PM

Last place gets first dibs. But what should the claimer value be? $13? $26?   

 

Funny part is the winner might have a slower motor than the last place racer. A motor is only as fast as the car it is in. And the car is only as fast as the trigger monkey.


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#148 Butters37

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:20 PM

I think so LOL. Can I call dibs on Willy's Can-Am at the R4 now???


Jason Engel

#149 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:23 PM

Well, at least my suggestion seemed to lighten the mood a little.  :D


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"Whatever..."

#150 Danny Zona

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:32 PM

Ahhhhhhh, lets review some history, boys and girls. We had a motor with an American-wound arms. It was inconsistent as hell. The fast guys were buying anywhere from 30 to 100 motors just to find those few bullets. Anyone that denies this is just full of crap. 

So what makes anyone think stepping back to that will do any good or help? I would rather spend my 13 dollars on a turd than $50. Plus get duped into a refurb and new brushes to polish that turd. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

I second that and no one can tell me different.


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