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R4/10 motor announcement


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#1 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 02:23 PM

Here we are with yet another motor issue in Retro racing. As an IRRA® BoD member I can assure you we are working towards a solution. Some of you wanted this "fixed" yesterday but I think you already know that's not feasible. We can not make a "knee jerk" reaction to this because it is at the core of our program. Act too fast, without all the information and without studying all the possibilities, and you often compound the problem. And for the conspiracy theorists out there, well don't you think we should wait for confirmation and all the evidence before we lynch Tim and JK? There will be a solution.
 
As a track owner and a Premiere Race host it is my responsibility to make my event as fair and fun as possible. To that end I will do what I think needs to be done, up to and including hand-outs in all classes, to make things as level as possible. I firmly believe the IRRA® will come up with a workable solution if this is indeed a major problem and not just a momentary blip. However we have no control over the Chinese manufacturers and little sway with JK. We simply don't have a big enough economic punch.
 
I personally believe there is no ulterior motive or greed agenda associated with this from JK. But we are at his mercy if any motor changes need to be made.
 
I'm posting this now so those that hate hand-outs will know that, as of now, hand-outs are a possibility at the R4/10. If that changes your mind and you won't attend then I'm sorry. I'm hoping that a solution is coming soon and this will be a non-issue.


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#2 Steve Deiters

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 03:19 PM

Not that it matters to the masses, but hand-out or not I'm planning on being there. Whatever the rules are at the time... well... that's what they are.


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#3 1fastdude

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 07:36 PM

Equalism is always better and closer racing in MY opinion.
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#4 Butters37

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 08:10 PM

Thank you for posting, Mike. Can't wait for R4/10 run what you brung or hand-out... March can't come fast enough.


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#5 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 09:26 PM

IMO, why not just mandate use of the new motors? This keeps it "fair" without having to go handout.

Guys can use up the old motors for weekly/series racing, keep the big races to what's still readily available.


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#6 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 09:42 PM

IMO everyone racing under the same rules evens the field and keeps things fair. 
 
After that it skill, determination and a little luck... Any Hawk can be used same as a PD with or without bearing.

 

That's it!!!


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#7 MSwiss

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 10:05 PM

Cap,

I think it's too early to make any ruling.

We have seen the new motor, inning Sano 10 in F1, setting a new lap record.
Running second fast lap time,last weekend, and finishing third in F1, at Tom Thumb, my guess, Jason's best Retro race finish to date.
Running fast time by a .1, in Can-Am in one of the Mains, at Post Jeff, a speedbowl.
And at the same track, a TQ, a new track record, and a second place, in Stock Car.

Seems like too many stellar performances not to let guys with older motors battle against them.


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#8 elinsley

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 07:17 AM

No matter what the motor rules are I'll be attending again this year.
Eric Linsley

#9 Butters37

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 07:35 AM

Actually it wasn't, Swiss. But way to sound so nice.
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#10 Butters37

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 07:37 AM

LOL.
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#11 Cap Henry

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 07:56 AM

Mike,

I fully understand all of that, but Mike M is already posting the possibility of hand-outs at R4, so I was posting a possible solution for that race.

I realize only allowing the new motors isn't a viable solution across the board for all IRRA® races, but for this big race it seems like a fair option without going full hand-out.


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#12 Dennis Krivacek

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 08:12 AM

Kudos, Mike, for exploring all options



#13 B.C.

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 08:43 AM

What if all the new motors were sent to the west coast and had them triple-zapped or turbo blasted, that would make them faster. it seems to make other motors cost several dollars more for that service.
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#14 tonyp

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 10:01 AM

LOL.


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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 10:25 AM

Actually it wasn't, Swiss. But way to sound so nice.

 
Jason,
 
I usually glance at all the Retro results, but if you've finished better than third in a field that large/strong, I apologize.

My point was that it wasn't third in an eight-entry race.

I'll add my name to the list of whatever motor rules McMasters decides on; they wouldn't be a factor in my participation.

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#16 Butters37

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 11:07 AM

I was just giving you some grief Swiss LOL. Wasn't serious at all.
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#17 MSwiss

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:57 PM

Add Sam Rackham's F1 win at BP, on the Gerding King, as another racer with a stellar performance using the new 7R motor.

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#18 gfox

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:37 AM

So... hand-outs or no R4/10?


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#19 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 10:36 AM

Not all evidence has been been gathered. Close but not all. I've given myself a deadline of January 1 to announce. It will be no later than that.
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#20 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 03:18 PM

After much thought and discussions with racers I have decided to split the two premier classes, one hand-out and one not. I don’t think there is any perfect solution to the "motor problems" some think we have and I’m not convinced hand-outs are an answer. But I do think it is worth trying and doing so "back to back" should help to compare the two options.
 
GTC and GTC Pro will, of course, remain "hand-out" classes. This year Can-Am will also use hand-outs. The motor will be the JK Retro Hawk with a new tamperproof seal. Any motor purchased for the GTC classes will be eligible for Can-Am only if the unused motor(s) are surrendered at the time of GTC tech and the motor used in GTC remains in the car and the car is impounded until Can-Am motors are handed out Saturday morning. No exceptions. Both Senior and regular Can-Am divisions will be the same. F1 will remain the same as before and use racer supplied IRRA® legal motors.
 
If you look at recent races IRRA® Retro racing has never seen closer results. Hand-outs may(?) help calm claims of inconsistency in motors, cheating with the motors, or complaints that some buy dozens of motors to find that "magic bullet." Time will tell. 
 
The logistics of handing out motors at a race the size of the R4 are complicated. I think I have a plan that will have as small as possible impact on time while still allowing equal and adequate time to prepare your hand-out motors. Regardless it will add some length to the day. That is one reason I decided not to use hand-outs for F1 on Sunday. I don’t want to delay your trip home any more than needed.
 
This may turn out to be a great “equalizer.” If so I will look at expanding hand-outs to all classes and more events. Or not. It could be a huge “cluster.” If so I will look at what went wrong and if it can, or should, be fixed. No matter, the tenth running of the R4 will be close, competitive, and a ton of fun. 

In addition to the Senior divisions and Can-Am hand-outs we are looking at a few more things to make the tenth running of the R4 stand out from the rest.
 
Stay tuned!!!
 
BTW... I'm locking this topic for a week to avoid "knee-jerk" responses. I'm sure there will be as many opinions about this as there are racers in Retro. If you just can't wait to blow me up, send an email or a PM. ;)


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#21 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:03 AM

Unlocked, as promised.
 
During the past week, I have had 31 emails/FBM/PM/text/phone calls about this. Of those, only three were negative, five were neutral, and the rest positive. I was surprised by who the negatives came from. And I also expected the results to be completely opposite from what they were.
 
But… consider this. All those who claimed racers won not because of the motor, now it’s your chance to prove it. All those who complained of others buying hundreds of motors to find that “silver bullet” won’t have to worry about it here. And those accusations of small wire, too many winds, not enough winds, different brushes, different magnets, etc., won’t have a problem. All motors will be from the same batch with, or without, any of those perceived problems and will all be equal. If you are good as you think you are you can still win with a hand-out.
 
JK has spent major money trying to reduce the variability in the HR. And signs point to the fact that it has worked. A very good thing for future events. But, right now is somewhat of a difficult period. The tightening of the tolerances has greatly reduced the chances of finding that stud of a motor and also reduced the chance of getting stuck with a total dud. We all know someone who has that special stash of bullet motors. And those who don’t have any want some. The “Haves” and the “Have Nots.” Now with the tightened tolerances the “Haves” will still have studs (for a while at least) and the “Have Nots” are becoming the “Never Wills.” I’m going to guess that those who complain the most about hand-outs will be the “Haves.” A prominent racer recently told me he feels cheated now that we are using hand-outs. Cheated?? What could be more fair and equal than everyone having the same motor and the same prep time?
 
So, some basic details. I will have more than enough motors on hand. Way more than enough. Hand-outs will start on Friday morning. I’m thinking four (4) motors each to start but that could increase. These motors can be used in both GTC and Can-Am. All motors will be impounded overnight in sealed containers. Any motor that leaves the raceway at any time will be disqualified. No, we will not do body searches at the door. I’m relying on the integrity of our racers to follow this rule and self-police anyone who might be tempted to do otherwise.
 
I wouldn’t do this if I didn’t think it was worth trying. It will be significantly more work for the race officials. I also believe I have a plan to minimize the impact on the schedule.
 
If we never try anything new this gets boring rather quickly. I’m pretty sure that in the beginning many thought that IRRA® or Retro in general, or using sealed motors would never work. I’m glad nobody listened.
 
Flame on!!

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#22 slick in the slot

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:24 AM

1) How much will motors cost?

 

2) If we purchase four motors on Friday for the GTC race, can we purchase more motors on Saturday for the Can-Am?

 

3) Will Friday's motors need to be turned in at GTC tech or at the end of the day?

 

4) How are all the racers going to get enough track time on Friday???  :)


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#23 Cap Henry

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:41 AM

The track time to break-in/test motors is my number one concern.

 

Any thought to being able to get motors Thursday to allow more time?


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#24 Noose

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 09:46 AM

Thanks but no thanks.


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#25 Steve Deiters

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 09:47 AM

I'll keep it simple. The rules will be the rules. They affect everyone equally. Once we pay our entry fee a racer agrees to conform to them. I don't have a problem with that and hopefully other racers will also.

 

Sounds like a lot of effort and thought was put into this policy before commitment of this program not to mention decades of experience by Mike McMasters that brought it to bear. I'll defer to these factors any day and look forward to the R4/10. I hope other racers will do so also. 

 

See everyone in March.


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#26 gfox

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:48 AM

I agree with Cap; being able to purchase your motors on Thurs. will alleviate, but not eliminate, the limited track time available to break-in motors.


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#27 elinsley

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:53 AM

The track time to break-in/test motors is my number one concern.

 

This isn't an issue for GTC so why would this be an issue for any other class?

 

Get the motors Saturday morning, break them in, and go practice with your group. Everyone getting the motors on Saturday morning seems fair across the board.


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#28 ejgehrken

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 11:59 AM

Eric,

I agree with you that it's not a problem in both GTC classes as this class is now a hand-out class at all Premier races. These races are run under a "one and done format" which requires you to only have one competitive motor.

The Can-Am race at the R4 requires you to race your way into the main (top 16 from quarters go to semis and top 4 from each semi go to the main). This format requires you to have up to 3 competitive motors.

This leads me to believe many racers are concerned with not having enough time to break-in and test enough hand-out motors to be able to race their way into the main.
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#29 Cheater

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:16 PM

Eric,

You won both Coupe and Can-Am at the most recent Retro East event, I am told. I also have heard that you used the same 7R motor to take both classes. Can you confirm?


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#30 ejgehrken

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:20 PM

Yes, I did and the motor kept its speed and brakes throughout both races.


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#31 Brinkley47

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:21 PM

Thursday hand-outs would be my preference. If you are going to let us get 8 (for both Coupe and Can-Am) then let us get them Thursday. We turn them in at close every night. If we don't turn them in, those motors are out. I would be looking at at least 8 hours break-in time and probably more to get those motors run in. That is tough when I am only getting on the track once every hour or so.


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#32 John Streisguth

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:48 PM

My recent experience with hand-out motors has not been good.  

 

At Retropalooza this year, one of the motors had the positive terminal marked incorrectly. I found this out when I went to try it on the track, and the car moved backwards. I thought maybe I made a mistake. Nope, it was the motor. At that point I really had no time to do any break-in of an additional motor, so I had to go with the one remaining one.  

 

At the Fall Brawl, one motor was an absolute turd, the other was just slow. I broke in four motors exactly the same way, two for myself and two for Troy Taylor. Troy's were very good, Mine were not.  

 

Luck of the draw, but if I were making a long trip for a race I would not want to leave my chances to "luck," especially with a limited amount of time to see what you've ended up with.


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#33 Butters37

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:54 PM

I love the idea. I'll be there with money in hand and ready to do whatever mike wishes. Seems simple. If you are prepared and it's not all about the motor what's the big deal? As I was told on Facebook, it's not luck, it's preparation. Seems easy since everyone will have the same amount of time to prepare!

Noose not coming? You really going to skip a race because hand-outs? Really? Well I guess that's one more pit spot for someone else. And the ORS has tech guys who are more than capable of handling the situation. With the use of the Swiss tool (a tool available to anyone. No special tools brought in by one person) Eric and Bill made quick work of tech the last two races and hopefully those two will do the same at the r4.

I'm ready, Mike! Take my money, sir. It should be spent supporting the track anyway. Not at other shops or even worse, online. You are doing all the work and deserve the profit to the fullest.


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:02 PM

the Swiss tool (a tool available to anyone)


Not since 2002. LOL.


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#35 Butters37

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:05 PM

It's a great tool and it's nice to have the exact tool you are being teched with. Made my ORS experience much easier since I bought one!


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Jason Engel

#36 slick in the slot

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:26 PM

Question: Will these hand-out motors be legal for other IRRA® events.

 

I recall a short-shaft Hawk that was disallowed by the IRRA®.


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#37 Cheater

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:36 PM

Gil,
 
Yes.
 
To the best of my knowledge, the short-shaft Hawk Retro was never used as a hand-out motor at a Premier event. Just to remind, the short-shaft Hawk Retro is physically the same as the faster Hawk 7, though the motors do carry different markings. Which is also why IRRA® does not allow the endbell side shaft to be shortened on legal Hawk Retro motors.


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#38 B.C.

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:36 PM

As has been noted at least twice, the decision has been made. So deal with it. My thought is this (opinions are like anal orifices, we all have one and they all stink).

 

Mike M. has made the call, I like it – it is fair for all. I don't have a dog in the fight as far as the time and expense to travel, so I understand that concern. I used to travel for years, so I have a familiarity with it. but I do have a dog in the fight as far as trying to support our hobby/sport. Dissension usually doesn't have any redeeming qualities.

 

If breaking-in motors is the issue, that is a valid concern. But, if the concern is that we still have to find that silver bullet then all the work that Tim with JK has done is for naught. By all accounts, he has invested a fair amount of money and time to improve the motor, the quality, and most of all to level the playing field as much as a $13 motor will allow.

 

So with that in mind, obviously too late for the R4 this year, but perhaps later this year, could this be done? Directed towards Tim with JK. Could you offer a Retro Hawk that is already broken in, with a serial number that is stamped/etched on it that would be readable through the plastic bubble on the package? Yes, there would be extra expense and the motor would cost more. That would free up time for the track owner not having to spend time marking each motor, merely record on the day they are handed out and who purchased what serial number. The racer would have more time to practice and set up their car. Koford in the past, and maybe still does had, on the card that the Group 12 motors came on, a sentence in the description saying broken in for 40 minutes. I don't know how much extra that added to the cost of the motor. I would think it wouldn't cost too awful much to make a stand capable of breaking in a lot of motors at once.

 

The regular Retro Hawk would still be available for non-hand-out races if racers wanted to purchase those.

 

I think the breaking-in issue is overblown in that car setup and driver ability are still more important. with the reliability and speed equality of these motors, from what I have seen and with what I have purchased and raced, they are very close.

 

Are we racing to have fun, have a good time, and make friends that share our passion for this sport/hobby or if we don't win we aren't happy and will take our toys and go home?

 

At the end of the day it is still imperative that we support raceways. I have never raced at Mike M's track but he must be doing something right since it has survived for a lot of years. He puts a lot of time and effort and I would guess money to have what appears to be a first-rate facility.


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#39 Dan Ebert

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:33 PM

Part of the problem is racing at tracks that run over 14 volts have been known to kill the brakes on RH motors. Plus any track running over 14 volts has had some history of short motor life with RHs. 

 

So the one and done format is fine for hand-outs. But-Can Am and F1 are race into a Semi and than a Main. Which means the possibility of 3 motors being needed in Can-Am. (I know F-1 is not hand-out so don't correct me.)  

 

If a limit of four hand-outs for Coupe and four for Can-Am is the limit, that is fine. But I am sure complaints will be heard about the amount of motors allowed if someone feels they didn't get good motors.

 

I was making plans to attend this year. I had moved the week we normally take vacation just to attend. But now I am on the fence with Can-Am being a hand-out race. The added cost isn't so much a dealbreaker for me. But being able to get on the track to test and check motors Saturday will be my concern.

 

If motors are allowed to be purchased Thursday that would be a huge help. Also if unused Coupe Motors are allowed to be used in Can-Am that would be a bigger help. 


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#40 Cap Henry

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:37 PM

This isn't an issue for GTC so why would this be an issue for any other class?
 
Get the motors Saturday morning, break them in, and go practice with your group. Everyone getting the motors on Saturday morning seems fair across the board.


Eric,

 

Last year GTC Pro wasn't hand-out. Plus you're getting two more motors then last year. So same amount of time to break-in and test more motors. And last year the, didn't the guys running hand-out get their motors while the non-hand-out guys got to practice, point being they got extra time to break their motors in. This year that can't be done, unfair to the group that goes first.

I personally only break the motors in on the track, I found running them on power supplies for less than 12 hours a waste LOL.

I'll be the first one to say I hate hand-out races. Motors aren't everything, but no one is going to put in a motor that's a tenth slow and hope for the best.


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Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:50 PM

Also if unused Coupe Motors are allowed to be used in Can-Am that would be a bigger help.


That's what I understand Mike McMasters to be saying in his post #21: "These motors can be used in both GTC and Can-Am."

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#42 mgerbetz

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 05:45 PM

Just my opinion but I just don't like hand-out motors. I have yet to attend a Retro event although I would love to. Hand-out motors are too "IROC" for me. I enjoy the challenge of "figuring things out." That is why I like the hobby.

I understand your thinking and all, but I just would rather figure out how to win; motor challenges included.
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#43 Dan Ebert

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:13 PM

A single post where the rules for the event and hand-out classes would be useful instead of in the middle of 40-plus post thread. 


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#44 Butters37

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:45 PM

Dan,

Unused coupe motors can be used in Can-Am. All motor numbers are registered to the racer and as long as left in impound Friday night they may be used Saturday. So off the bat four motors at your disposal.

Want to do 12-hour break in? Bring a few power supplies and start two motors when they are first handed out Friday. Take them to impound and boom... you have two motors for Saturday ready to go. If you want to break them in on the track??? Well, put them in run limited practice and risk it.

It's called a strategy... it's now part of the game instead of who can spend the most money on motors from now until then. Simple and fair.
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#45 Cap Henry

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:58 PM

I'm not saying I need more then four motors. I just want sufficient time to break them in and test them.

I'm by no means trying to put down the event, I'll be there. But I would like maximum of time to prepare and sort things out.

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#46 Josh Crutchfield

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 09:35 PM

Those showing up Saturday will be at a disadvantage versus those that raced GTC Friday and had time to break in multiple motors..


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#47 Taylor Davis

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 09:51 PM

This is one of the biggest races of the year, why not run both?

#48 Dan Ebert

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 09:54 PM

And if they decide to pass them out Thursday guys get two days with them.  

Hmmm... better not show Saturday morning unless you are feeling lucky.
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#49 Mike Patterson

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 09:58 PM

Why be allowed to break in the motors at all? Bolt it in the car and drive it. It would vastly speed things up, and everyone would be at the same disadvantage.

 

The only downside I can see to this idea is the incredible amount of bitching and moaning it would create. :D


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#50 Butters37

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:24 PM

The fast guys will still be fast. Now we find out who can do what with a time crunch.

I doubt anybody that has a chance to make the Main will show up Saturday morning, Josh. Just like in previous years they know what they are getting into. Friday seems fair for motors because not everyone will be able to get there Thursday.

The event officially begins with Coupe on Friday and that is when motors should be handed-out at the start of the event. Not during open or controlled practice. In my mind it's as simple as that.
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