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#1 Danny Zona

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 09:02 PM

I'm sure we all know about the JK HR motor situation.

It might be time for dialogue racers.

I assure you the new batch of motors are not as fast as previous batch of motors on my home track. Anybody that knows me I hope will believe me.

That being said I'm stocked on older batch of motors so I'm good but will feel bad for racers who aren't.

Just a thought racers. I'm not trying to stir the pot. Just hoping we can work on a solution.
Test, test, test and go test some more.
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#2 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 02:45 PM

I hope myseries does not ban a perfectly good RH motor. HP is a good thing. I've seen R motors at P-1 that are setting new track lap records.


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#3 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:27 PM

Danny, with the information that we have now, I think that we should do nothing.


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#4 tonyp

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:52 AM

Wait until we get an answer from Tim and what his plans are.


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#5 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 09:39 AM

Well, it seems that Florida My Series does have some very interesting data on the "R" and "7R" issue.  I did not realize this until last evening when I had my driving partner in the endurance series, Matt Boman, check the stamping on the JK Hawk Retro motors that we are using this year in the endurance series.  All of the motors are marked "7R 7R 7R 7R 7R", except for one motor which is marked "R MADE IN CHINA".  Also, I am going to assume that all of last years motors were marked "R MADE IN CHINA". Several of last year's motors have been located and all of them are labeled "R MADE IN CHINA".

 

Another point: The power situation at both tracks are the same from last year to this year. Both tracks have been cleaned and spray glued in a very similar manner from last year to this year, but you can not do it exactly the same.  Third point is that the environment is very similar, but next exactly the same.  Having set the stage, here we go.

 

P1 Endurance race results from 9-10-2016 (7R motors):

P1 Endurance 9-10-2016.jpg

 

P1 Endurance race results from 10-10-2015 (R motors):

P1 Endurance race results 10-10-2015.jpg

 

If you nitpick the data, you might say that the 7R motors are a little faster, maybe 0.05 to 0.07 sec per lap. But I conclude that the motors are nearly identical.

 

I know that Matt and I ran JK treated tires last year, as well as, this year. I don't know about the other teams.

 

Melbourne Endurance race results from 10-15-2016 (7R motors):

MS Enduro race results Melbourne 10-15-2016.jpg

 

Melbourne Endurance race results from 9-12-2015 (R motors):

MS Enduro race results Melbourne 9-12-2015.jpg

 

Again from this comparison, the 7R motors might be a tick faster, but would probably be considered statistically insignificant. I do know that the endurance race at Melbourne was the closest race that I have ever been involved with. Matt and I raced lap by lap with Jay and Gary for 13 of the 16 heats. The team of Terry and Dennis were only a few laps back, and always remained in contention for the entire race.

 

Of course, these two comparisons does not address the issue that a batch of 7R motors were built from wire that was 5 ten thousandths smaller. I do not know the gauge of the wire of these 7R motors.

 

All and all, I think that there is no reason to panic. I also want to say that JK has always done a great job in supplying us slot car racers with very good quality and consistent products. Amen.


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Doc Dougherty
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#6 Danny Zona

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 10:12 AM

That is cool.

I'm good.

I have all the fast batch of motors still. About 60 plus.

I'll be a rocket next year. LOL.


Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Luck is the residue of design.

It's not about being right, it's getting it right.

Kelly Racing.

#7 JK Products

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 12:01 PM

Hi Dan,

 

Very interesting data and by far much more consistent with what we are seeing and hearing reported by the vast... vast majority of racers. Of those that do complain, they rarely included clean data, and in a recent example, refuse to submit the 10 so called "0.4 seconds slower than the field" motors for testing even after all costs are paid, free replacement are offered, and testing would be done by Recek and Horky. It's obvious their goal is not to investigate or evaluate a "potential" issue, but something entirely different. 

 

The 0.005" smaller wire claim, again from a highly-biased source, was supposedly done using a micrometer to try to measure extremely small thickness differences on a soft material that is coated. This is a really bad idea, even if you weren't biased to begin with. We are using accurate and reliable means (optical) in our testing and hope to have much more data shortly. 

 

Thanks again for you nice work and kind words. 


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#8 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 12:09 PM

Maybe I should explain how the races are conducted. The endurance races are a handout motor program. Bill Pinch gets a shipment of 50 to 60 Hawk Retro motors from JK or from a distributor. Each motor is engraved with a serial number. Each team gets one motor issued to them with the entry fee at random. Each team can purchase additional motors during each race; I think a limit of 2 extra motors; chosen at random. We run 16 heats; cycling through each lane twice. Each heat is 5 1/2 minutes long. So we have a race of 88 minutes of power on conditions.


Doc Dougherty
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#9 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 12:14 PM

Tim, thank you for the feedback. I wanted you to read my post but I did not want to bother you. You are a stand up guy and I appreciate everything that you are trying to do. I have been a product design engineer for 42 years and I know how difficult it is to conduct product tests which are valid and meaningful. Keep up the good work.


Doc Dougherty
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1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
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#10 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 12:16 PM

Danny, you are always a rocket.


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Doc Dougherty
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#11 Danny Zona

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 02:44 PM

Good to hear.
Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Luck is the residue of design.

It's not about being right, it's getting it right.

Kelly Racing.

#12 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 02:58 PM

Hi Dan,

 

Very interesting data and by far much more consistent with what we are seeing and hearing reported by the vast... vast majority of racers. Of those that do complain, they rarely included clean data, and in a recent example, refuse to submit the 10 so called "0.4 seconds slower than the field" motors for testing even after all costs are paid, free replacement are offered, and testing would be done by Recek and Horky. It's obvious their goal is not to investigate or evaluate a "potential" issue, but something entirely different. 

 

The 0.005" smaller wire claim, again from a highly-biased source, was supposedly done using a micrometer to try to measure extremely small thickness differences on a soft material that is coated. This is a really bad idea, even if you weren't biased to begin with. We are using accurate and reliable means (optical) in our testing and hope to have much more data shortly. 

 

I had a racing engine business and built engines capable of high power outputs for extended periods of time. Our work involved measurements down to half a ten thousand. Using Mics, depth mics, and dial bore gauges etc etc. We did this everyday for years with no problems. That is 0.0005". Better get you facts correct before casting aspersions on someone ability to measure something correctly.

 

One does not shoot the messenger just because he may not like or agree with the message. That's not good business.

 

That said, I wish you the best of luck in resolving this new motor issue. Best of luck with your new venture with JK products.  

 

Regards

Greg VanPeenen.



#13 Danny Zona

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 03:34 PM

I'm hoping for the best.

Racing is finally picking back up in FL.


Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Luck is the residue of design.

It's not about being right, it's getting it right.

Kelly Racing.

#14 MSwiss

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:47 PM

I had a racing engine business and built engines capable of high power outputs for extended periods of time. Our work involved measurements down to half a ten thousand. Using Mics, depth mics, and dial bore gauges etc etc. We did this everyday for years with no problems.  That is 0.0005. Better get you facts correct before casting aspersions on someone ability to measure something correctly.
 
One does not shoot the messenger just because he may not like or agree with the message. That's not good business.

 
Greg,
 
Where I used to work, when we really needed to check a wire size, the wire was carefully chemically stripped, and it was checked with a laser mic.
 
"Regular" mics are certainly accurate, but as Tim mentioned, when checking the diameter of something as soft as copper, it really isn't the best way.
 
And while it's an old pic, the circle with the line through it, superimposed over a Hawk Retro, on Rick's Facebook page, certainly would give Tim pause in judging his impartiality.
 
I posted a few times I measured a few new 7R arms and they metered slightly higher, than a new R arm.
 
Certainly not enough to justify the claim of the 7Rs being .4 slower. That exaggeration is also not helping Rick's case.
 
As Tim said, he needs some real accurate measurements. If indeed, the wire is a little smaller, all parties need to know exactly how much.
 
Something tells me his vendor isn't going to take a pic, with a mic measuring it, as conclusive proof.


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#15 tonyp

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 07:26 AM

Mike, your method is the same used by ROAR to test wire sizes on spec motors.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#16 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 12:06 PM

I deal with 256-strand micro coax in my daily life. The only way to accurately spec wire like this is to chemically strip it and laser mic it. Wire manufacturers will tell you that the first time you put a mechanical mic on a copper wire as thin as these, they are out of spec.


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#17 Biscuit

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 01:59 PM

Lots of variables with the race results... comparing race data from a year apart isn't the most accurate way to track test if the new ones are slower. I haven't done the test myself but I don't think any of the people claiming the new ones are slower have anything to gain by making that claim. By new i mean the new arm, because apparently there are also hybrids with old arms and new cans.

 

If you want to track test them do a legit same day test with several of both. Way more accurate. Several have done this with the same result that the old ones are faster. No idea how anyone wants to solve it but there are several variations of the same motor.

 

I don't think there is any one solution. My opinion is it's time to split into expert and amateur with experts stepping up to Hawk 7s. If you want to solve people buying 20 motors to find something that makes the car remotely hard to drive lets step up the horsepower. Let's get more motor so it isn't who has the best one it is who can make their car handle. I read someone say faster motors can make the racing less clean and I disagree for A-B Main racers it would be the same.


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Mike Bresett
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#18 MSwiss

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 05:33 PM

I deal with 256-strand micro coax in my daily life. The only way to accurately spec wire like this is to chemically strip it and laser mic it. Wire manufacturers will tell you that the first time you put a mechanical mic on a copper wire as thin as these, they are out of spec.

 

Matt,

 

Good post.

 

Biscuit,

 

Here's a recent post from FB. It's the kind of testing you're talking about, from top Retro racer, Greg Fox;

 

"I broke in five new motors today at Marks; three R hand-outs from the Sano, and two 7R's from off the wall at Mark's.

Fastest was an R:

7R - +.02
R -  +.04
7R -  +.05
R -  +.08

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the 7R motors."


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#19 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 07:39 PM

Mike S.,

 

Maybe I am the only one, but I don't understand the data.


Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
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#20 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 07:46 PM

Biscuit,

 

You are behind the times. My Series has already split up the drivers between Group 1 (expert) and Group 2 (amateur). We just did not want to term it as expert and amateur.


Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
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​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#21 tonyp

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 07:51 PM

Doc,

 

I'm sure he means the four motors were .02 to .08 slower than the fastest R motor.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
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American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
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#22 MSwiss

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 08:17 PM

Hi Dan,

 

I think Tony explained it, but here is a theoretical example for Mark's Gerding King;

 

"I broke in five new motors today at Marks; three R hand-outs from the Sano, and two 7Rs from off the wall at Mark's.

Fastest was 4.10 with an R:

7R - 4.12
R -  4.14
7R - 4.15
R -  4.18


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#23 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 08:44 PM

Now that makes more sense. So, the best R motor turned a fast lap of 4.10 sec, while the best 7R motor went 4.12 sec. The best R motor being 0.02 sec faster than the 7R motor. That difference is a far cry from a difference of 0.3 to 0.4 sec per lap as reported by someone else on the other thread.  My take is that we do not have to do anything concerning the "My Series" series.

 

If you look at the average fastest lap of the R motors VS the 7R motors, the 7R motor is faster 4.135 sec vs 4.14 sec for the R motor. And, the test data does indicate that the 7R motor is more consistent. However, three motors vs two motors does not make any statistical significance.


Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
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#24 Biscuit

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 07:11 AM

Those motors that were tested could very well have been the "hybrid" motors with the old arm and new can. Not speculating just stating that it is a real possibility.
 
Doc, I understand we already have expert and amateur; I'm more referring to the Retro cars. If there are 60 racers at the Premier events that is more than enough to split the group to make more happy. Right now the same solution won't make the guy who buys 20 and the guy who buys two motors both happy. Two distinctly different types of racers. Tou have those who show up to compete and win. You have those who just show up to have a good time; they don't care where they end up. They want to split FL by age which will be a first.

Lets split by motors and kill two birds with one stone. Hawk 7s for expert Can-Am, Retro Hawks or hand-outs for amateur. Everyone is happy. I know, it's just way too easy right LOL.
Mike Bresett
proud Kelly racer
AFX home set apt #3714 back to back triple crown champion (oval, road course, drag strip) 1993-94
Mr Bill's Super slots stock T-Jet track record holder
2000 FCR weekly race oval winner and 2001 Flexi NASCAR oval race winner
2003 Winged Womp Nerffest champion (the one that caught the sponsor's eye)
2007 scratchbuilt 1/32 S16C oval champion
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#25 Biscuit

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 07:16 AM

If you want the wording to not be derogatory towards the names of the classes and classifications we can call the classes Advanced Can-Am and Can-Am. Don't need 20 Hawk 7s to find some HP I would hope. A minimal difference from one batch to next won't be as obvious with a little faster motor. Right now they are just too slow for the big tracks. 


Mike Bresett
proud Kelly racer
AFX home set apt #3714 back to back triple crown champion (oval, road course, drag strip) 1993-94
Mr Bill's Super slots stock T-Jet track record holder
2000 FCR weekly race oval winner and 2001 Flexi NASCAR oval race winner
2003 Winged Womp Nerffest champion (the one that caught the sponsor's eye)
2007 scratchbuilt 1/32 S16C oval champion
Participation plaque champion 2011
2015 Tuesday night race place practice champion (black lane)





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