Jump to content




Photo

I just want consistent motors


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
136 replies to this topic

#1 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:51 PM

[This thread was split off from the 2016 Boola Bash race report - F1 thread in the SCRRA race reports subforum because it is way off-topic for that thread - Admin]

Note, Sam Rackham won with a new 7R 7R 7R 7R 7R motor.


  • Noose likes this

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.





#2 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,557 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 30 October 2016 - 09:29 PM

While that is really interesting, all it means its that an "attempt" to make these motors closer in performance failed miserably!! Most of the new 7Rs are much slower - so Sam's one rocket is the rare exception and not the rule!! That would mean there's far more variance that before - certainly does not bode well for the consistency we have hoped for.


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#3 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 October 2016 - 09:44 PM

Sorry, Tim.

But there have been numerous rockets, including Howie's Sano winner and lap record setter.

Regardless, the attempt was to narrow the field and Tim's findings were on a dyno, not a track.

As far as BP results, you guys march to the beat of a different drum. 10t pinions, no weight limits, ever changing track conditions.

It's hard to compare anything you do with the rest of the Retro world.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#4 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,557 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 30 October 2016 - 10:25 PM

Not true, Mike, the rest of the world along with BPR has found that the new motors - for the most part are slower than the old. But - you have accurately pointed out - there are a few rockets!! What that means is there is more variation in the good and bad ones!!

What would really be best is if there was no tinkering with the motors and let them stay as consistent as possible!! Constant change and variation is exactly what we don't need but is what we have been getting!!


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#5 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,866 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 30 October 2016 - 11:11 PM

What would really be best is if there was no tinkering with the motors and let them stay as consistent as possible!! Constant change and variation is exactly what we don't need but is what we have been getting!!


Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, Tim?

If the various motor suppliers can't deliver what you have so insistently demanded over time, why don't you step up to make it happen? That's the American way... build the better mousetrap and make a fortune.

Tap your savings or sell a few of those great collector cars you own, and with your own hard-earned bucks bring to the hobby the kind of consistent, unchanging motors you insist should be available to all. If you sincerely believe it would so easy to produce such motors, why not?

A cruder way of putting it this: put up or shut up, and honestly I don't really care which choice you make, although I suspect many here at Slotblog would be pleased if you selected the second option.

 

I can't even express how damned tired I am of this constant motor crap for almost the last decade. Those who have beaten the horse until it is bloody pulp need to show everyone how they can do a better job.

 

My apologies to Bryan for hijacking his race results thread.


  • Pappy, Half Fast, Dan Ebert and 1 other like this

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#6 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 October 2016 - 11:28 PM

Tim,

 

If this strain of slower motors really exists, it's not because Tim told them to tighten up their balancing and timing tolerances. It would be because a slightly smaller wire came up the pipeline, which has nothing to with the above, other than the timing coincided.

In the meantime, fast 7Rs have been reported in California, Illinois, Ohio, Georgia, Florida, and New York.

You race on a Gerding dragstrip, against guys who are willing to buy, to quote Bryan, "lots" of motors.

It sounds like top one or two presenters is all that will satisfy anyone at BP.

In the meantime, we have IRRA® races where guys like Howie who buy one hand-out, and either wins, or turns fast time until he has controller problems.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#7 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,557 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:42 AM

Wow, such lovely "shoot the messenger" insults. There is a motor that was made that is much more consistent and has never changed - it's the TSR!!

Why does Tim keep asking for changes? Like a short shaft - and "tighten" the specs! Leave it alone would be the best possible result! We know with these cheapo motors they're not going to get better. But forcing changes keeps upsetting our little world! And you guys want everyone to just ignore it!

 

It has nothing to do with where I race - and everything to do with consistent products, which we have not been getting! And remember - BPR racers are not the ones that brought this to attention!! But as always your reaction is to cover up and shoot all messengers!

 

You are very much like today's media - slanted and biased! I'd just like to race with a consistent product. And it's not what we have been getting. Tim has continued tinkering. Stop already!! it is what it is. Stop changing it!!


  • Rob Voska and Tim Wilkins like this
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#8 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:04 AM

Tim,

You tout the TSR all the time.

Why didn't the SCRRA stick with just them?

PS: I guess you're not going to read or understand that if these 7R motors guys think are slow, have smaller wire, it has nothing to with Tim looking for better consistency.

It was just bad luck.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#9 Mr. M

Mr. M

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 185 posts
  • Joined: 04-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida Space Coast

Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:28 AM

Would the reaction to an unintended change, if the result was a "faster" motor, be the same? Come on guys, this is a lot to demand, this kind of consistency, for a cheap motor with low volume and not much pull with the overseas manufacturer. The level of control needed is way beyond what is reasonable for a commercial product used in an application that is highly demanding. Give the owner of JK some slack here!
  • Cheater, Pappy, MSwiss and 7 others like this
Chris McCarty

#10 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,866 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:52 AM

Wow, such lovely "shoot the messenger" insults.

 
Please point to any insulting language in my post #5 above.
 

I'd just like to race with a consistent product.


Tim, just because you want something does not mean is is practical or even possible. Hell, I'd like to be 25 again... or to win the Powerball lottery (and I actually play it very occasionally).

Let me repeat the salient points as I see them.

1) To best ensure the most consistent motors over time, say 3-5 years, a large single production run would need to be ordered and, don't forget, paid for upfront. I have no idea of the annual sales volume of the motors used in Retro, but will make a WAG that it's 10,000-20,000 and could be more. So three years on the low estimate is 30,000 pieces; five years on the high estimate is 100,000 pieces. Guessing again, these motors today probably cost $1 apiece. That's $30,000 to $100,000. And the ROI would almost certainly be less than many other investments that could be made with those sums, which is likely why no vendor in the hobby has placed such a large bet.

2) And even were 1) to occur, it is well known that the Chinese motors makers have trouble delivering a highly consistent product over a long production run. It is a pretty indisputable fact that the consistency over multiple production runs made over time is not good at all. I'm guessing inconsistency over a single run may be the issue with the RH 7R, but the jury's still out on that regardless of what you and others seem to feel.

One person in the slot car industry told me, even if he had $10 million to spend (or more), that there is a practical limit as to how consistent a motor he could have made and that very highly consistent motors are not possible regardless of the amount spent having them made or the cost of the motor to the end user.

As we are so often reminded, it is an imperfect world, Tim, regardless of what we want.


  • DOCinCocoa likes this

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#11 Dallas Jackson

Dallas Jackson

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 323 posts
  • Joined: 07-May 08

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:01 PM

From where I sit the new motors are slower. I have several old Falcon 7s still running in the 24,000 on my power supply.

Bring back the old motors.

#12 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,270 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:10 PM

Dallas, no need to. They have been and are still legal to run.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#13 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:11 PM

Adding to Greg's post, these are not $1, or even $2 motors, any more.

Racers shouldn't confuse a Hawk Retro with some unplated, unbalanced, motor with ceramic mags and without comm wrap.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#14 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,866 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:14 PM

Guessing again, these motors today probably cost $1 apiece.


I've been informed privately that my guess quoted above is not even close and that the wholesale cost to have them manufactured is more than $3 each landed, which makes the numbers even worse.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#15 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:16 PM

Would the reaction to an unintended change, if the result was a "faster" motor, be the same? Come on guys, this is a lot to demand, this kind of consistency, for a cheap motor with low volume and not much pull with the overseas manufacturer. The level of control needed is way beyond what is reasonable for a commercial product used in an application that is highly demanding. Give the owner of JK some slack here!


Well Chris,
 
It would not have been an issue as the prior batches would have been no longer available so nobody would feel the same level of ill will. "IF" the 7R is slower (not saying it is, just looking at both sides) the argument is that you cannot go back and get what is no longer available. If they were faster then everybody would have the same opportunity at this time.
 
It is a no-win situation for everyone.


  • Tim Wilkins likes this
Matt Sheldon

#16 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,866 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:26 PM

Matt,

My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that the R motor is no longer available either from the manufacturer or the distributors. Is there still stock in raceways and in the hands of some racers? Sure, but what can be done about that?

I find it amusing on one level that the current obession with consistency was never an issue in years past, before sealed motors became so popular. On another level... well, never mind.

 

And ISRA has been using hand-outs for one of their classes for many years, without such a firestorm about consistency. Wonder why that is?


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#17 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,602 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:31 PM

If they were faster then everybody would have the same opportunity at this time.

 

And the racers who invested in lots of old motors would be screwed.

"The old batch was better" has been a mantra of the slot racer, since I got back in seriously, in late 1981.

Brushes, magnets, and especially rubber.

The fact that this seems to be so serious, is a product of the Internet, social media, and the popularity and high profile of Retro racing.

PS: It looks like Cheater and I have been posting simultaneously a few times.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#18 B.C.

B.C.

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 241 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:33 PM

I am off target apparently... I am just glad to still have a place to play toys at our original American Raceways orange. We run whatever is available.

 

And I am grateful that there are a few folks still willing to make parts available. I haven't seen many new companies taking the leap into this high profit, richly rewarding hobby we call slot car racing.

 

We had another raceway recently close in the Rocky Mountain area, and it remains to be seen if it reopens. The closest raceway to me now is over 400 miles away. Fortunately I was able to run there last month, only because I had a fellow racer help me out with a nice room at his house and him driving a large part of the way.

 

All I am saying is this rancor over and over on a 13 dollar motor will in all likelihood discourage any new manufacturer or individual from offering much of anything new for us.


  • Cheater, Pappy, tonyp and 8 others like this
Brian C. Bays

#19 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

Greg & Mike,

 

You are saying what I am saying, there is no turning back. I almost stated what Chris did a week ago and then went through my voice of reason process.

 

I am not complaining publicly one bit. I have my own frustrations sure, but it doesn't really matter with regards to the big picture.


  • Cheater and kvanpelt like this
Matt Sheldon

#20 jimht

jimht

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,246 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Alamo City

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

Have 100,000 motors produced.

Have the manufacturer check each one for performance

Sell the best 100 for $1,000 each..

Sell the next best 9,900 for $100 each.

Sell the rest for $5 each.

 

Smile all the way to the bank.


  • Cheater, Pappy and SlotStox#53 like this

Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#21 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

And the racers who invested in lots of old motors would be screwed.


That may be the case either way, Mike.
Matt Sheldon

#22 slotcarone

slotcarone

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,342 posts
  • Joined: 23-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dutchess County, NY

Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:42 PM

Motor consistency has always been an issue. Even the best motor builders can put 10 identical motors together using the finest components and still get different results across the lot.
  • Phil Hackett, Half Fast, usadar and 2 others like this

Mike Katz

Scratchbuilts forever!!


#23 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 31 October 2016 - 01:30 PM

Have 100,000 motors produced.

Have the manufacturer check each one for performance

Sell the best 100 for $1,000 each..

Sell the next best 9,900 for $100 each.

Sell the rest for $5 each.

 

I'll take the $5 motors. And no matter how the race day shakes out, on the way home I'm smiling just as much as the guy who swept all classes, TQ'd, and set new lap records. In Retro there are a few winners on race day, but there are no real losers. This is not F1 or NASCAR.

 

If anyone really thinks the older Rs are so much faster I have four new ones. $100 each. Free shipping. 75% goes to support Slotblog. 


  • Cheater, Pappy, JerseyJohn and 2 others like this
Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#24 gc4895

gc4895

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 336 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Walnut Creek, CA

Posted 31 October 2016 - 01:48 PM

Maybe the answer is do nothing. 

 

Look, if the 7R were thought to be "faster" than prior Retros they would be bought up quickly since everyone wants to go faster. Now, if the rumor is they are slower, they will be in the supply chain longer since competitors will hoard their prior stocks and only buy the new 7R out of necessity or perhaps desperation. But eventually buy them they (we) will.

 

And the manufacturer, who seems quite reasonable, will get a handle on this current slower vs faster business. He's already shown his hand and is committed to building consistency. (Consistency: what we say we want but what we really want is faster than the guys we are racing against.])The manufacturer will declare these motors to be within the "expected range of performance" and will further declare that all future lots will also fall into "the range of expected performance."  As consumers, we will try and buy out of the next production lot to avoid buying the current perceived slower motor. But truth is, these are a commodity and they all look alike with no distinguishing features. Eventually in the supply chain they will all get mixed up. And we will buy them to keep racing. It all works out in the long run. Oh, in the interim, there may be a black market created in old Retro motors. What a great way to sell your duds!

 

For big races, hand-out motors are the answer. Draw from a pile, have a few extras, and race what you receive. One might predict that hand-out motors actually will not effect who occupies the podium. Somehow, good racers seem to find a way to win. But with hand-outs everyone will at least feel they had a chance.

 

The long term view is quite positive! This manufacturer is committed to narrowing the band of expected performance from the motors. That's really exciting! That's what we say we want! Of course, it's not really what we want. Buying sealed motors is much like buying Pokémon card packs. You could pretend you were happy with a pack of common cards but what you really wanted was the foil Charizard.   

 

As always, YMMV,  


  • Cheater, tonyp, usadar and 2 others like this
Mark Bauer

#25 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,607 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 31 October 2016 - 01:57 PM

Guys... even in the days when you could work on motors there were inconsistencies. Hand-wound individually inspected armatures put into matched high-gaussing set-ups would and could be very different from each other. This is why no matter how you test off-track that you cannot determine the performance of *that* motor without starting a total performance profile of what is good and bad. If you think working on motors is not fun then don't even try to do profiling.
 
Give the Tim at JK a break! The man is trying to improve the product. Did the price of the motors go up? No! Did the performance change? By some accounts yes and others no (I have no skin in this game and only have been alerted about this through private email). I'm sure there'd be complaints if Tim had ordered another batch as-was and he didn't take the effort to address the weaknesses the prior motor had (by anecdotal evidence).


  • Cheater, Noose, tonyp and 5 others like this
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image





Electric Dreams Online Shop