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I just want consistent motors


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#1 MSwiss

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:51 PM

[This thread was split off from the 2016 Boola Bash race report - F1 thread in the SCRRA race reports subforum because it is way off-topic for that thread - Admin]

Note, Sam Rackham won with a new 7R 7R 7R 7R 7R motor.


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Mike Swiss
 
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#2 Tim Neja

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 09:29 PM

While that is really interesting, all it means its that an "attempt" to make these motors closer in performance failed miserably!! Most of the new 7Rs are much slower - so Sam's one rocket is the rare exception and not the rule!! That would mean there's far more variance that before - certainly does not bode well for the consistency we have hoped for.


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#3 MSwiss

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 09:44 PM

Sorry, Tim.

But there have been numerous rockets, including Howie's Sano winner and lap record setter.

Regardless, the attempt was to narrow the field and Tim's findings were on a dyno, not a track.

As far as BP results, you guys march to the beat of a different drum. 10t pinions, no weight limits, ever changing track conditions.

It's hard to compare anything you do with the rest of the Retro world.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#4 Tim Neja

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 10:25 PM

Not true, Mike, the rest of the world along with BPR has found that the new motors - for the most part are slower than the old. But - you have accurately pointed out - there are a few rockets!! What that means is there is more variation in the good and bad ones!!

What would really be best is if there was no tinkering with the motors and let them stay as consistent as possible!! Constant change and variation is exactly what we don't need but is what we have been getting!!


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#5 Cheater

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 11:11 PM

What would really be best is if there was no tinkering with the motors and let them stay as consistent as possible!! Constant change and variation is exactly what we don't need but is what we have been getting!!


Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, Tim?

If the various motor suppliers can't deliver what you have so insistently demanded over time, why don't you step up to make it happen? That's the American way... build the better mousetrap and make a fortune.

Tap your savings or sell a few of those great collector cars you own, and with your own hard-earned bucks bring to the hobby the kind of consistent, unchanging motors you insist should be available to all. If you sincerely believe it would so easy to produce such motors, why not?

A cruder way of putting it this: put up or shut up, and honestly I don't really care which choice you make, although I suspect many here at Slotblog would be pleased if you selected the second option.

 

I can't even express how damned tired I am of this constant motor crap for almost the last decade. Those who have beaten the horse until it is bloody pulp need to show everyone how they can do a better job.

 

My apologies to Bryan for hijacking his race results thread.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#6 MSwiss

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 11:28 PM

Tim,

 

If this strain of slower motors really exists, it's not because Tim told them to tighten up their balancing and timing tolerances. It would be because a slightly smaller wire came up the pipeline, which has nothing to with the above, other than the timing coincided.

In the meantime, fast 7Rs have been reported in California, Illinois, Ohio, Georgia, Florida, and New York.

You race on a Gerding dragstrip, against guys who are willing to buy, to quote Bryan, "lots" of motors.

It sounds like top one or two presenters is all that will satisfy anyone at BP.

In the meantime, we have IRRA® races where guys like Howie who buy one hand-out, and either wins, or turns fast time until he has controller problems.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
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#7 Tim Neja

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:42 AM

Wow, such lovely "shoot the messenger" insults. There is a motor that was made that is much more consistent and has never changed - it's the TSR!!

Why does Tim keep asking for changes? Like a short shaft - and "tighten" the specs! Leave it alone would be the best possible result! We know with these cheapo motors they're not going to get better. But forcing changes keeps upsetting our little world! And you guys want everyone to just ignore it!

 

It has nothing to do with where I race - and everything to do with consistent products, which we have not been getting! And remember - BPR racers are not the ones that brought this to attention!! But as always your reaction is to cover up and shoot all messengers!

 

You are very much like today's media - slanted and biased! I'd just like to race with a consistent product. And it's not what we have been getting. Tim has continued tinkering. Stop already!! it is what it is. Stop changing it!!


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#8 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:04 AM

Tim,

You tout the TSR all the time.

Why didn't the SCRRA stick with just them?

PS: I guess you're not going to read or understand that if these 7R motors guys think are slow, have smaller wire, it has nothing to with Tim looking for better consistency.

It was just bad luck.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#9 Mr. M

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:28 AM

Would the reaction to an unintended change, if the result was a "faster" motor, be the same? Come on guys, this is a lot to demand, this kind of consistency, for a cheap motor with low volume and not much pull with the overseas manufacturer. The level of control needed is way beyond what is reasonable for a commercial product used in an application that is highly demanding. Give the owner of JK some slack here!
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#10 Cheater

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:52 AM

Wow, such lovely "shoot the messenger" insults.

 
Please point to any insulting language in my post #5 above.
 

I'd just like to race with a consistent product.


Tim, just because you want something does not mean is is practical or even possible. Hell, I'd like to be 25 again... or to win the Powerball lottery (and I actually play it very occasionally).

Let me repeat the salient points as I see them.

1) To best ensure the most consistent motors over time, say 3-5 years, a large single production run would need to be ordered and, don't forget, paid for upfront. I have no idea of the annual sales volume of the motors used in Retro, but will make a WAG that it's 10,000-20,000 and could be more. So three years on the low estimate is 30,000 pieces; five years on the high estimate is 100,000 pieces. Guessing again, these motors today probably cost $1 apiece. That's $30,000 to $100,000. And the ROI would almost certainly be less than many other investments that could be made with those sums, which is likely why no vendor in the hobby has placed such a large bet.

2) And even were 1) to occur, it is well known that the Chinese motors makers have trouble delivering a highly consistent product over a long production run. It is a pretty indisputable fact that the consistency over multiple production runs made over time is not good at all. I'm guessing inconsistency over a single run may be the issue with the RH 7R, but the jury's still out on that regardless of what you and others seem to feel.

One person in the slot car industry told me, even if he had $10 million to spend (or more), that there is a practical limit as to how consistent a motor he could have made and that very highly consistent motors are not possible regardless of the amount spent having them made or the cost of the motor to the end user.

As we are so often reminded, it is an imperfect world, Tim, regardless of what we want.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#11 Dallas Jackson

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:01 PM

From where I sit the new motors are slower. I have several old Falcon 7s still running in the 24,000 on my power supply.

Bring back the old motors.

#12 Noose

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:10 PM

Dallas, no need to. They have been and are still legal to run.


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#13 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:11 PM

Adding to Greg's post, these are not $1, or even $2 motors, any more.

Racers shouldn't confuse a Hawk Retro with some unplated, unbalanced, motor with ceramic mags and without comm wrap.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#14 Cheater

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:14 PM

Guessing again, these motors today probably cost $1 apiece.


I've been informed privately that my guess quoted above is not even close and that the wholesale cost to have them manufactured is more than $3 each landed, which makes the numbers even worse.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#15 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:16 PM

Would the reaction to an unintended change, if the result was a "faster" motor, be the same? Come on guys, this is a lot to demand, this kind of consistency, for a cheap motor with low volume and not much pull with the overseas manufacturer. The level of control needed is way beyond what is reasonable for a commercial product used in an application that is highly demanding. Give the owner of JK some slack here!


Well Chris,
 
It would not have been an issue as the prior batches would have been no longer available so nobody would feel the same level of ill will. "IF" the 7R is slower (not saying it is, just looking at both sides) the argument is that you cannot go back and get what is no longer available. If they were faster then everybody would have the same opportunity at this time.
 
It is a no-win situation for everyone.


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#16 Cheater

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:26 PM

Matt,

My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that the R motor is no longer available either from the manufacturer or the distributors. Is there still stock in raceways and in the hands of some racers? Sure, but what can be done about that?

I find it amusing on one level that the current obession with consistency was never an issue in years past, before sealed motors became so popular. On another level... well, never mind.

 

And ISRA has been using hand-outs for one of their classes for many years, without such a firestorm about consistency. Wonder why that is?


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#17 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:31 PM

If they were faster then everybody would have the same opportunity at this time.

 

And the racers who invested in lots of old motors would be screwed.

"The old batch was better" has been a mantra of the slot racer, since I got back in seriously, in late 1981.

Brushes, magnets, and especially rubber.

The fact that this seems to be so serious, is a product of the Internet, social media, and the popularity and high profile of Retro racing.

PS: It looks like Cheater and I have been posting simultaneously a few times.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#18 B.C.

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:33 PM

I am off target apparently... I am just glad to still have a place to play toys at our original American Raceways orange. We run whatever is available.

 

And I am grateful that there are a few folks still willing to make parts available. I haven't seen many new companies taking the leap into this high profit, richly rewarding hobby we call slot car racing.

 

We had another raceway recently close in the Rocky Mountain area, and it remains to be seen if it reopens. The closest raceway to me now is over 400 miles away. Fortunately I was able to run there last month, only because I had a fellow racer help me out with a nice room at his house and him driving a large part of the way.

 

All I am saying is this rancor over and over on a 13 dollar motor will in all likelihood discourage any new manufacturer or individual from offering much of anything new for us.


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#19 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

Greg & Mike,

 

You are saying what I am saying, there is no turning back. I almost stated what Chris did a week ago and then went through my voice of reason process.

 

I am not complaining publicly one bit. I have my own frustrations sure, but it doesn't really matter with regards to the big picture.


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#20 jimht

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

Have 100,000 motors produced.

Have the manufacturer check each one for performance

Sell the best 100 for $1,000 each..

Sell the next best 9,900 for $100 each.

Sell the rest for $5 each.

 

Smile all the way to the bank.


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#21 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:40 PM

And the racers who invested in lots of old motors would be screwed.


That may be the case either way, Mike.

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#22 slotcarone

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:42 PM

Motor consistency has always been an issue. Even the best motor builders can put 10 identical motors together using the finest components and still get different results across the lot.
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#23 Samiam

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 01:30 PM

Have 100,000 motors produced.

Have the manufacturer check each one for performance

Sell the best 100 for $1,000 each..

Sell the next best 9,900 for $100 each.

Sell the rest for $5 each.

 

I'll take the $5 motors. And no matter how the race day shakes out, on the way home I'm smiling just as much as the guy who swept all classes, TQ'd, and set new lap records. In Retro there are a few winners on race day, but there are no real losers. This is not F1 or NASCAR.

 

If anyone really thinks the older Rs are so much faster I have four new ones. $100 each. Free shipping. 75% goes to support Slotblog. 


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#24 gc4895

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 01:48 PM

Maybe the answer is do nothing. 

 

Look, if the 7R were thought to be "faster" than prior Retros they would be bought up quickly since everyone wants to go faster. Now, if the rumor is they are slower, they will be in the supply chain longer since competitors will hoard their prior stocks and only buy the new 7R out of necessity or perhaps desperation. But eventually buy them they (we) will.

 

And the manufacturer, who seems quite reasonable, will get a handle on this current slower vs faster business. He's already shown his hand and is committed to building consistency. (Consistency: what we say we want but what we really want is faster than the guys we are racing against.])The manufacturer will declare these motors to be within the "expected range of performance" and will further declare that all future lots will also fall into "the range of expected performance."  As consumers, we will try and buy out of the next production lot to avoid buying the current perceived slower motor. But truth is, these are a commodity and they all look alike with no distinguishing features. Eventually in the supply chain they will all get mixed up. And we will buy them to keep racing. It all works out in the long run. Oh, in the interim, there may be a black market created in old Retro motors. What a great way to sell your duds!

 

For big races, hand-out motors are the answer. Draw from a pile, have a few extras, and race what you receive. One might predict that hand-out motors actually will not effect who occupies the podium. Somehow, good racers seem to find a way to win. But with hand-outs everyone will at least feel they had a chance.

 

The long term view is quite positive! This manufacturer is committed to narrowing the band of expected performance from the motors. That's really exciting! That's what we say we want! Of course, it's not really what we want. Buying sealed motors is much like buying Pokémon card packs. You could pretend you were happy with a pack of common cards but what you really wanted was the foil Charizard.   

 

As always, YMMV,  


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#25 Phil Hackett

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 01:57 PM

Guys... even in the days when you could work on motors there were inconsistencies. Hand-wound individually inspected armatures put into matched high-gaussing set-ups would and could be very different from each other. This is why no matter how you test off-track that you cannot determine the performance of *that* motor without starting a total performance profile of what is good and bad. If you think working on motors is not fun then don't even try to do profiling.
 
Give the Tim at JK a break! The man is trying to improve the product. Did the price of the motors go up? No! Did the performance change? By some accounts yes and others no (I have no skin in this game and only have been alerted about this through private email). I'm sure there'd be complaints if Tim had ordered another batch as-was and he didn't take the effort to address the weaknesses the prior motor had (by anecdotal evidence).


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#26 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 03:28 PM

Sorry, Tim.

But there have been numerous rockets, including Howie's Sano winner and lap record setter.

Regardless, the attempt was to narrow the field and Tim's findings were on a dyno, not a track.

As far as BP results, you guys march to the beat of a different drum. 10t pinions, no weight limits, ever changing track conditions.

It's hard to compare anything you do with the rest of the Retro world.

 

Mike,

 

If you are talking about Howie's cars this year, I think you may be mistaken. I know for a fact no 7R7R7R motors were raced in Howie's Coupe, Can-Am, or the F1 cars at this year's Sano.

 

Period!

 

I am sure there are some of the new motors that run just fine. It may take a while for the older faster fast motors to get used up. It is what it is.

 

Tim trying to make changes to make the motors closer in performance I am sure was done with good intentions. If done to make more profit that's business. Someone attempting to find out why the motors seemed to be slower, also done with good intentions.

 

The arms do meter higher on the new motors. The reason, more winds, smaller wire, bad conections at the comm, who knows. Something has been changed.

 

If people can't deal with it, quit racing. The manfacturer could put pressure on the Chinese to undo what thay have done, Good luck with that.

 

I say let Tim verify what is going on and let him take care of the issue like he did with the short shaft motors. He is in complete control, it's his business. Stop pointing fingers and resolve the problem. If it can't be resolved then live with it.  

 

GVP


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#27 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 03:57 PM

GVP,
 
Good post.
 
Howie ran a 7R motor in his F1 winner.
 
He confirmed it on Facebook and took a better pic of the bottom of the car.
 
But you can see it in Bill Fulmer's pic, if you look real hard. Where it's most clear, is in the upper right hand corner, you can see the engraved "R."
 
On any of the previous generations of Retro Hawks, there isn't any printing or engraving in that corner.
 
Howie's F1 winner

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#28 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 04:26 PM

Well hell, all I want to do is race my slot cars now and again. If I run a TSR, fine. If I run a F7, fine. If I run a Hawk Retro, fine. When someone wins with whatever motor, fine. I just want to race these cars while we can with whatever damn motor I can.

These are slot cars for crying out loud! Choose whatever motor you desire and give it your best shot. OK, done.
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#29 Bill from NH

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 04:42 PM

Tom,

I'll add racing for bragging rights and occasionally a trophy. This sounds like my "run-what-you-brung" racing days in the '60s. :)
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#30 Rob Voska

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 06:38 PM

This thread is like the last 50 threads about motors. Time to lock it up as it's redundant.
 
PS: If I was selling motors I would order 1,000 motors to one fast spec and 10,000 average motors. Mix them all together when filling orders and send them to every distributor and corner of the country. Every track ends up with a few rockets and the rest will sell by guys looking for the rocket. Wash, rinse, repeat.



#31 Phil Hackett

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 06:57 PM

If I was selling motors I would order 1,000 motors to one fast spec and 10,000 average motors. Mix them all together when filling orders and send them to every distributor and corner of the country. Every track ends up with a few rockets and the rest will sell by guys looking for the rocket. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 
What makes you think this hasn't already happened? :D
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#32 Pappy

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:07 PM

There is a motor that was made that is much more consistent and has never changed - it's the TSR!!


How many batches have been ordered and can you guarantee that the next batch will be as consistent and fast as the last batches?
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#33 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:08 PM

Howie ran a 7R motor in his F1 winner.
 
He confirmed it on Facebook and took a better pic of the bottom of the car.
 
But you can see it in Bill Fulmer's pic, if you look real hard. Where it's most clear, is in the upper right hand corner, you can see the engraved "R."
 
On any of the previous generations of Retro Hawks, there isn't any printing or engraving in that corner.

 

Mike,

 

You need to look at the close-ups of the winners cars. Very close and clear images of the motor, no engraving on the motor at all that I could see. Just like when I looked at the car before tech. You eyes must be better than mine as I see nothing laser etched on the motor in the picture you posted. The new motors are marked with a series of 7s and Rs that would not just an R.

 

Not going to fight about it, not worth it, it's only people playing with little race cars. We just have to agree to disagree.

 

Regards,

 

GVP

 

PS: Close it up, nothing being accomplished, just more talking and no action. Tim will handle it as best he can.


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:12 PM

Phil,

 

I see your smiley face, but as a fellow slot racing manufacturer and (at least past) vendor to most of the motor companies, your comment is rude.

You should join Facebook where your offhand, barstool comments are the norm and welcome.


Mike Swiss
 
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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:20 PM

You need to look at the close-ups of the winners cars. Very close and clear images of the motor, no engraving on the motor at all that I could see. Just like when I looked at the car before tech. You eyes must be better than mine as I see nothing laser etched on the motor in the picture you posted. The new motors are marked with a series of 7s and Rs that would not just an R.

 

You can see an R in the upper right hand corner. The rest of the 7R engraving, and Made in China, is not visible due to the angle and lighting of the pic.

Howie posted a clear pic of the motor in the car in either the Rick page, or Slot Car Race Talk page, in the thread concerning the 7R motors.


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#36 Tim Neja

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:27 PM

The whole reason the TSR is not the choice for motor is because the Retro Hawk is faster!!! That simply obsoletes any motor that is slower!!! The TSR was as consistent as anything we've ever had. Bryan Warmack will also verify this thought. I've spoken to him many times and he feels the TSR was as good a motor as we've ever had, as do I. But when a faster one becomes legal - the slower one will be obsolete.
 
 If Tim will stop tinkering with the motor - i.e. shaft size, wire size, what ever - just let them be consistent!! Then everything will sort itself out. The new motors seem to have more variance than every before - that is a problem. Just leave it alone and let the quality be what it is!! Changes are what drive us nuts, we know we are not going to get a super equal cheap motor. It is what it is - but constant changes make it worse!!
 
I'll stand by the same thing Tim Wilkins said to you, Greg., attitude in how you say it means everything. Sure, I could buy a motor - why? So you can obsolete it like they did to PdL? He did put his money where his mouth was; look where it got him. 
 
As far as the TSR being competitive and consistent - take a look at our flat track races. The podium is still filled with TSR motors - because they work fine on a flat driver's track. But any track with high speed corners with all things being equal, like driver skill and car setup, becomes a motor dyno!! Then the motor means a lot more and .010 secs is the difference in winning the A or back marker in the C Main. 
 
Swiss stumped like a bad politician all over for the Retro Hawk to become the motor of choice. And it drove out the Puppy Dogs, and the TSRs and Falcons. Now, we have the motor being changed and tinkered with and it's creating problems because it's become the only motor we use. Just stop trying to "improve" it!! It's not helping.
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#37 Samiam

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:53 PM

Tim,

 

The thin wire, if that is the issue, is on the Chinese. They did not check the thickness or just figured that -.0005" was close enough for a toy car motor. Or just didn't care. 

 

Can I suggest you guys just temporarily switch to the TSR till this is sorted out?


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#38 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:57 PM

Tim did not change the wire size. Why would he?

Bryan and Cukras did not have to change to the Retro Hawk.

I promoted the Hawk Retro because it performed real well in it's maiden voyage.

David Krumnow podiumed in three different hand-out races at Sano 7, with the same motor. No FK had ever had that longevity.

But I never contacted Bryan and suggest the SCRRA adopt the Hawk Retro.

And your claim that the Hawk Retro is faster than the TSR D3 and Falcon 7 is not entirely accurate.

Mill has TQ'd and competed for the win on the King, with his old, no longer available, yellow label, JK circa Falcon 7s. Sounds like his old F7's are plenty fast.


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#39 Bill from NH

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:13 PM

If the TSR is more reliable, more consistent, or whatever buzz words one wants to use, there is nothing stopping a racing organization from making it their "motor of choice" and outlawing all others, even if some of the other motors are faster.

 

NorCal Retro doesn't seem to be experiencing such motor problems..


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#40 John Streisguth

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:15 PM

NorCal Retro doesn't seem to be experiencing such motor problems.


Really? That's not what I've been reading...
"Whatever..."

#41 Phil Hackett

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:31 PM

I see your smiley face, but as a fellow slot racing manufacturer and (at least past) vendor to most of the motor companies, your comment is rude.

 
I should have clarified this comment has nothing to do with the current motors.
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#42 Bill from NH

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:55 PM

Really?  That's not what I've been reading...

 
John, to clarify my point, I should have said NorCal Retro doesn't have to run the fastest motors available. They don't seem to be speed demons like in Orange county.
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#43 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:03 PM

They do allow the Hawk Retro in Can-Am.

Mike Swiss
 
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#44 Tim Neja

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:30 PM

Mill has TQ'd and never finished with one. I ran a Falcon at the Boola Bash - and it slowed down in qualifying so I ended up in the B Main. I changed the motor between heats - lost seven laps and still made the move-up. Then podium'd with the Retro Hawk.

I'm done posting - you want to ignore what's happening, that's fine. Keep your head in the sand. Sad that we can't just leave the motor alone and race and have fun. That's all.
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#45 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:10 PM

My point is, claiming Tim requested the wire size to be changed, is absolutely silly.

In the meantime, out East, at the next big race, the Fall Brawl, Howie PM'd me with this:

"Hansen has a couple of 7Rs that are fast, he bought six - two duds, two good, two fast."

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#46 Rob Voska

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 07:30 AM

Hansen has a couple of 7Rs that are fast, he bought six - two duds, two good, two fast.

 
In my mind that makes those motors cost $45 each with a lot of hassle and "luck" thrown in.

#47 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 07:41 AM

In other words, about the cost of one Puppy Dog, with the same "hassle and 'luck' thrown in" and just as likely not to be fast, as the Pro Slots are known to be less consistent than the Hawk Retros.

But Hansen got two fast motors for his money...

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#48 Pablo

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:33 AM

IMO, the amount of time spent discussing disposable Retro motors would be better spent actually building motors.

At the end of the day you would have actually constructed something and experienced the pleasure of learning.

 

I'll go back and hide in my vintage cave now :laugh2:


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#49 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:56 AM

The whole reason the TSR is not the choice for motor is because the Retro Hawk is faster!!! That simply obsoletes any motor that is slower!!! The TSR was as consistent as anything we've ever had. Bryan Warmack will also verify this thought. I've spoken to him many times and he feels the TSR was as good a motor as we've ever had, as do I. But when a faster one becomes legal - the slower one will be obsolete.


The never-ending shibboleth that faster is always better and preferable... why? Do faster motors generate higher levels of participation? Do faster motors generate closer racing? Do faster motors ultimately generate more profit for the raceways and manufacturers? Until someone can enumerate actual and real benefits accruing from a faster motor as compared to a slower motor, I'm not buying it. The insistence so many express that faster is better is a fallacy IMO, and the historical facts of just about every form of 1/24 slots over the entire history of the hobby do not support that opinion. If I'm wrong in this claim, tell us where it has happened.
 

If Tim will stop tinkering with the motor - i.e. shaft size, wire size, what ever - just let them be consistent!! Then everything will sort itself out. The new motors seem to have more variance than every before _ that is a problem. Just leave it alone and let the quality be what it is!! Changes are what drive us nuts, we know we are not going to get a super equal cheap motor. It is what it is - but constant changes make it worse!!


So each batch of Falcons produced under Jerry's ownership was more consistent? And he never made any changes from batch to batch? That's not the opinions I've seen posted here. Jerry sure wasn't excoriated as Tim has been in recent weeks.
 

I'll stand by the same thing Tim Wilkins said to you, Greg, attitude in how you say it means everything. Sure, I could buy a motor - why? So you can obsolete it like they did to PdL? He did put his money where his mouth was; look where it got him.


You can't have it both ways, Tim. If the TSR was a sufficiently-consistent sealed motor in your opinion, why wasn't it embraced by the racers at BPR? I guess because the alternatives were faster... or perhaps the almost-certainly unobtainable level of consistency you are demanding is less important to others than to you.

My point to you is that continuing to demand "consistent motors" (and you need to more clearly define what that vague term means to you - is a spread of a three tenths from fastest to slowest motors acceptable? Two tenths? One tenth?) you're insisting on is something that almost certainly cannot be delivered by anyone at the level you desire within the constraints of cost, manufacturing availability, and market size that apply. And what you insist has to happen has never occurred in the entire history of competitive 1/24 slot racing, not in any class under any rules.


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#50 JimF

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 09:52 AM

Seems to me that some of the arguments being thrown around in this thread actually have little bearing on the problem at hand...

  • The evidence and testimony suggests pretty overwhelmingly that the new batch is as a whole slower than the old batch.
  • The fact that Sam, Howie, or Tom got fast 7R motors does not change the fact that the new batch is slower.
  • The fact that it's not JK Tim's fault also does not change the fact that that the new batch is slower.
  • The fact that the new batch is more consistent than the old does not not change the fact that the batch is slower.
  • The fact that some guys race to win and other guys race to play does not change the variance between the batches.

None of the justifications will change the fact that the new batch is slower. Pointing out that JK Tim has to fix it is silly. He can't fix it. It also doesn't matter what happened or why. It is what it is. The various governing bodies can't fix it either. But... It is however, the responsibility of the governing bodies to figure out how to deal with it.

 

So... I'd suggest that we all just shut up and let the governing bodies deal with it.


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