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I just want consistent motors


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#101 Cheater

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 12:49 PM

Obviously no one forced any other organization to adopt the Retro Hawk. Just as IRRA® doesn't force anyone to race Retro under its rules. It's all by choice, which is another fact that some seem to want to ignore.
 

... the good luck we had with them in Sano 7, with speed, reliability, and unique to the FK, longevity.


And there have been many others who have independently reported the same or similar.

 

What's getting incredibly tiresome to me is for the IRRA® BoD to be blamed and even reviled by some few racers (many of who don't race under IRRA® rules) every time there's even a small bump in the road. 


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap





#102 Half Fast

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 01:01 PM

To the IRRA® BoD:

 

keep-calm-and-illegitimi-non-carborundum

 

Cheers,  :)


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#103 MSwiss

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 01:23 PM

Cheater,
 
You make some valid points such as brackets and distribution availability, but both are things that can be worked around. Slot racers are generally mechanically inclined so I think they can solve any mounting issues and distributors and tracks will stock products that they can sell. If this works the motors will be there. My guess is that the holes for mounting are some industry standard and shouldn't be a problem. I might be wrong.  In summary I don't see the issues you mention as a stumbling blocks.  Also it is very early in the conversation.
 
My suggesting of this as I said was not to add fuel to the fire, but perhaps provide some alternative considerations or at the very least a "Plan B" motor. If track owners Mike McMasters or Mike Swiss want to buy a lot of eight of these motors for the purpose of testing put me down for two-one for Can-Am and the other for F1. The NSR 3030 seems to be the highest RPM motor of the EVO series. Perhaps others in this brand group should be considered. I don't know. The notation in the spec that I liked is that these are "... not suitable for home racing wall pack power supplies" so that should tell us something. The only negative I see is that the motors are $17.99 each which is a bit of a jump from what we are paying now, but if it solves the problems...
 
Now that only leave six more motors to be placed for evaluation. Hopefully some racers in the upper 1% will step forward to give them a try, do some testing, and see what happens.  Those at the top and bottom of the spectrum on this issue all have a vested interest in retro succeeding.

 

Sorry, Steve, but those long $17.99 (actually looks like $19.99 retail) 1/32 motors are not going to be something that could work for Retro racing.

There are chassis that have upstop crossmembers running in front of the motor, along with the numerous F1 chassis that have their rear body mount also running in front of the motor.

Also, unless that motor is a much lower height, on any chassis that have angled brackets, the front of the motor would drag the track.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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#104 Steve Deiters

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 01:36 PM

Mike,

 

I hear what you are saying, but nothing you stated I see is insurmountable. When Indy switched to one type of engine to another over the decades you couldn't pull one engine out and then put the next genereation in without changes. Sometimes substantial. Same situation possibly here.

 

The question at hand I think is could these any of these motors offer a viable alternative in performance and and most importantly consistency to the status quo? Until we test them and compare how will we know?

 

SD



#105 Noose

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 01:48 PM

The question at hand I think is could these any of these motors offer a viable alternative in performance and and most importantly consistency to the status quo?  Until we test them and compare how will we know?

 

Steve,

 

What makes you think they are any more consistent than what is currently used? There is no need to go down this road at all IMO.


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#106 Steve Deiters

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 01:55 PM

Won't know till they are tested, will we?

#107 MSwiss

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 02:11 PM

I hear what you are saying, but nothing you stated I see is insurmountable. When Indy switched to one type of engine to another over the decades you couldn't pull one engine out and then put the next genereation in without changes. Sometimes substantial. Same situation possibly here.
 
The question at hand I think is could these any of these motors offer a viable alternative in performance and and most importantly consistency to the status quo?  Until we test them and compare how will we know?


Steve,

(Saying all of the below in very nice tones.)

You post as if the Hawk Retro hasn't served the IRRA® well, which obviously isn't the case.

The close racing at the Sano is a recent testimony to that.

Also, you seem to think the IRRA® are paid employees of the World's retro racers, and we should be spending large blocks of time, extensively testing, to make Retro racing perfect.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#108 Steve Deiters

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 02:48 PM

Mike,
 
Let me respond to each comment individually...
 
I think the Hawk Retro has served the IRRA® well. In fact extremely well. We should have switched to that style of non-rebuildable, inherently sealed motor design years ago, but nobody asked so I assumed the IRRA® board would move at their own pace. If you have any doubts ask Gary Adams because the subject comes up either coming or going to a race at least once or twice in the car on the trip literally for years.
 
I have never... ever... posted here or anywhere else that the IRRA® racing  has not been close. In fact in the ORS series and the R4 for that matter I've observed and spoken many times about how close the racing has evolved and "... more crowded at the top" the racing is becoming. All of which are good and have referred to it in that manner in the past and will continue to do so in future.
 
As far as the board being "paid employees"..."spending large blocks of time testing"..."to make Retro perfect." Nothing could be further from the truth that I view it that way. I've never complained about board actions and accepted rules changes as they have come. No complaints. My suggestion of possible alternative motors was an effort to see if potential "Plan B" motors are out there which could help lance and drain this festering boil that everyone devotes way to much time toward and sucks the oxygen out of almost every conversation on this blog recently. As to "testing" what I suggested was that a random group of racers from all skill levels step forward and get some of these motors for the purpose of evaluation at their own expense. That was it. I didn't suggest that the board do it.
 
I been involved in slot racing off and on since the mid-'60s on all levels measured in decades from being a racer, wholesale, manufacturing, and retail as well as running my own company for over 20 years so I know a little bit about slot racing and more importantly problem solving. I was extending a helping hand. Sorry you didn't see it that way because no affront was intended for the IRRA® board or the work you do.
 
Steve Deiters


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#109 MSwiss

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:09 PM

My preface in "nice tones" was serious.

You're welcome to have an opinion and I respect it.

I just think a longer motor, that will not fit all existing chassis, will never fly with the racers, let alone the board.

As far as getting a team of guys to extensively test anything, good luck.

Maybe it's different by you, but I don't see any breed of track rats around these days, looking to hang around the raceway five days a week, trying anything and everything.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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#110 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:36 PM

To the BoD of IRRA®...

Thanks for everything you guys do. I didn't have anything in slot car racing to get excited about until you guys put this program together! I'm the type of racer that just wants to race to win no matter what the set of rules are. If the motors are slower than I will just look for a better one while having fun doing it!

Really, guys, thanks a lot!!! I'm pretty sure we are gonna see some hot 7R motors this weekend!


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#111 Garry S

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:40 PM

Just a returning-to-the-hobby casual racer with a suggestion, I'd be interested in your comments:

  • Select a reasonably high quality motor 
  • Dyno each
  • Equalize performance on dyno using variable resistor (select desired wattage/resistance/style here)
  • Seal each motor/resistor combo with matching numbers
  • Attach resistor between controller/track

This won't stop the hard-core cheaters, but nothing really will. It will make it possible to use well matched quality motors rather than unpredictable Chinese junk, which seems to be the source of this controversy.


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#112 Cheater

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:43 PM

... festering boil that everyone devotes way to much time toward and sucks the oxygen out of almost every conversation on this blog recently.


Steve, it isn't just recently that a small group of people (racers and otherwise) create a firestorm when some rule is changed or some situation occurs where the rules have to be amended to address it. It has happened almost since the day we announced the IRRA® ruleset and certainly it has happened any time motors are discussed, whether due to a rule change or not.

Just what do you think would occur if the BoD changed to another style of motor that would impact chassis designs and/or require significant revision to existing chassis? It would probably generate a larger shitstorm than we've ever had to deal with before.
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#113 Steve Deiters

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:55 PM

Cheater,

 

Nothing is more constant than change........

 

SD


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#114 MSwiss

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 04:02 PM

Just a returning-to-the-hobby casual racer with a suggestion, feel free to ignore me:

  • Select a reasonably high quality motor 
  • Dyno each
  • Equalize performance on dyno using variable resistor (select desired wattage/resistance/style here)
  • Seal each motor/resistor combo with matching numbers
  • Attach resistor between controller/track
This won't stop the hard-core cheaters, but nothing really will. It will make it possible to use well matched quality motors rather than unpredictable Chinese junk, which seems to be the source of this controversy.


Your idea would require constant monitoring of the driver's equipment.

Regardless, a dyno is not 100% reliable as an indicator of how a motor will perform in real life conditions.

Plus motors increasing in speed, the longer they run, is common.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#115 Cheater

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 04:05 PM

  • Select a reasonably high quality motor
  • Dyno each
  • Equalize performance on dyno using variable resistor (select desired wattage/resistance/style here)
  • Seal each motor/resistor combo with matching numbers
  • Attach resistor between controller/track

Sorry, Gary, but I believe your suggested motor program is untenable for several reasons: cost of the dyno, cost of the labor to perform the work you suggest, and the ultimate cost of the motor when finished. And you still will not be able to ensure better equality between motors, if for no other reason than the fact, as I mentioned above, that the performance a motor gives is not 100% determined by the motor itself, i.e. the track power and wiring is a non-trivial factor, and there's no way to exactly simulate that off the track. The "reasonably high quality motor" restriction suggests a non-Chinese motor so I doubt you could generate a motor via your suggested plan that would sell for as little as $100; it could be more but almost certainly couldn't be much less.
 

It will make it possible to use well-matched quality motors rather than unpredictable Chinese junk, which seems to be the source of this controversy]


I would disagree that this is the sole reason and believe there are quite a few more agendas in play. There are racers who are still fuming that IRRA® went to sealed motors. And some who seem to feel deeply insulted that their opinions are/were not adopted. There are racers who feel it is their unalienable right to have rules that allow them to maximize their chances of winning by buying hundreds of motors and spending every waking hour building and testing cars. And there are some who can't enjoy racing unless they win, and often integrity and moral compass are sacrificed to that single-minded goal. Probably some other agendas playing out, but you get the idea.

I think it was Jim Honeycutt who posted a while back something to the effect that all any racer wants is for the rules to be changed to suit himself and that's not too far off-base IMO.
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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#116 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 04:17 PM

Two questions, Bryan.

What was your reason to go to the Hawk Retro?

Did I ever contact you, suggesting the SCRRA adopt the motor?

The reason I ask is, Tim N has blamed me here on Slotblog, and Mill has blamed me on the SCRRA Facebook page.

 

Mike,

       

To answer your questions. First, why go to the Hawk Retro? For years all we ran in the Can-Am class out here at BPR was the TSRD3 motor but we allowed the Falcon 7 in all the other classes. Eventually we allowed the Falcon 7 in Can-Am also. My opinion was that the concept of Retro was better served by allowing only ONE sealed, consistent and unchanging motor and I thought the TSR suited that bill perfectly, but other racers had differing opinions and said they couldn't get any good TSRs so we allowed the Falcon 7s in Can-Am. Slowly a pattern seemed to be developing where an occassional "ballistic" Falcon 7 would turn up and therefore a quest began to find these Falcons as people would buy more motors in search of the faster ones. A couple years ago the Hawk Retro came out and was introduced to rave reviews across the country and soon it became inevitable that the SCRRA would have to try this motor also.

 

After tearing several Hawk Retros apart to insure that they were the same as the TSRs and Falcons (wire, winds, etc.) we decided to let them run on a trial basis and it seemed early on that this was going to be the motor of choice on the King track as it was more reliable than the Falcon and faster than the TSR and seemed very comparable as far as performance went. Shortly after we just made the Hawk Retro legal as it was a great motor.

 

Several years have passed now and personally I think the early Hawks were perhaps the best and most consistent but I'm sure some racers will disagree with me. After these couple years I have seen these variations in the Hawk Retro....

              A)       Four different can markings:

                           1.    No markings

                           2.    MADE IN CHINA in black ink

                           3.    R  MADE IN CHINA  etched

                           4.    and the new 7R7R7R

              B)        Several different balancing procedures

              C)        Different magnetic cogging?

              D)        Different shafts

              E)        Different brushes

              F)        and now perhaps different wire, windings, and timing...

 

I'm not saying that any of these small changes might not fall into the normal range of manufacturing specs or saying that these changes would necessarily make the motor faster but it does continue to make the motor different in a class where I believe the motor should be basically unchanging. Again, here just my opinion and I still think the Hawks are very good for the money and I know none of this stuff can ever be perfect and I completely understand why these changes might be necessary. I'm sure JK will get it sorted out!

 

The SCRRA is just standing back watching to see how all this pans out as presently we really haven't seen enough of the new Hawk 7R to make any kind of decision one way or the other though I have torn two of the new ones apart and found them to be exactly the same as the old ones (65 turns of .0105" wire and the same timing). Track performance has been mixed...

 

And to answer your second question, at no time did you contact me or put pressure on the SCRRA to use the Hawk Retro in our racing program. Like I said, after many of the good early reviews the motor was getting it just seemed like a good idea to give the motor a try. In hindsight, my opinion is that we should have just stuck with the TSRs but like I said many will disagree with me!

 

The best we can hope for is a reasonable compromise that keeps most of the people happy! :)


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#117 Zippity

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 07:22 PM

It is nice to see that rare commodity: "common sense" appearing in this thread...

#118 Cheater

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 07:31 PM

To me, the term is an oxymoron, as "common sense" is in no way common.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#119 Tim Neja

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 07:47 PM

See, that's EXACTLY what I mean, Greg!! I NEVER SAID the IRRA forced us to do ANYTHING!! AGAIN you ignore what is said and make up your own facts! The SCRRA decided to go to the Retro Hawk - and it's done nothing to help our racing. Just made it faster and forced us to ONE motor BECAUSE it was faster. Just like we said it would. Has NOTHING to do with the IRRA!! So WHY do you even go there?
 
AGAIN - THERE is an excellent example of putting words in someone's mouth!! :)
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#120 Cheater

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 09:19 PM

Direct quote from your post #94:

"Going to the Retro Hawk has done NOTHING to make us better racing!! It's FORCED us to ONE motor."

First, please explain how I put words in your mouth. The above is an exact quote.

Second, the context and your seemingly wanting to vilify IRRA® suggested pretty strongly that you see the base problem as being IRRA®'s actions. Perhaps if you had more accurately delineated what you meant by "it's"...
 
Why aren't you railing so emotionally at the powers that be at SCCRA? If anyone has "forced" you to "ONE motor," it wasn't IRRA® yet here you are again abusing me, Mike Swiss, and the rest of IRRA® BoD.
 
Rather sorry you couldn't keep your promise not to post in this thread again...

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#121 Butters37

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 09:52 PM

It has exhibited all the same problems and more...

Taken out of context to suit your argument, Greg... Of course it can look like he is attacking you. He is stating that when the Hawk was introduced and heavily propped up by the IRRA® the SCRRA decided to give it a shot. The motor quickly became popular and has had reliability issues for them since. But the trade-off was speed. So the TSR motors were dumped in favor of a motor that was faster. Any racer looking would do the same thing. In no way did he say the IRRA® was to blame nor the SCORA. But the racers looking to be faster and both organizations wanted them so he feels they have to suffer. Seems like he is just tired of motors changing and not being as consistent as the days when the TSR was king. Now it's too far to go back. I believe the word is nostalgia...

 

Now I understand you want to believe he's attacking you and blaming the IRRA®... but the center of the universe revolves around the sun. Shocking, I know... Tim never said anyone or named anyone directly as I have seen. You are the one thinking he is blaming you. He just wants consistent motors... and is in an open forum.


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#122 MSwiss

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:04 PM

Jason,
 
If Tim wasn't somehow holding us, or at least, me, responsible, why did he post, "Swiss stumped like a bad politician all over for the Retro Hawk to become the motor of choice" (post #36)?

Go read the rest of the post.

It's sounds kind of "blamey" to me. LOL.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#123 Tim Neja

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:04 PM

Thank you, Jason - exactly.  For some reason Greg wants to make it personal. Appreciate your summation of what has been stated by me and others. Greg is like CNN - take a sound "bite" and fit it to your agenda! 


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#124 John Streisguth

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:07 PM

For what it's worth, I just returned from doing some pre-Fall Brawl testing at Fast Tracks, where they have an extremely fast little Hillclimb.  

 

I tested a total of nine motors. Most were the "China R" (purchased over a period of two years), one was "made in China" and three were "7R7R7R" motors. Lap times across all motors were within 0.14 seconds, the highest being one of the 7Rs that had been run in the enduro, and was probably the one we swapped out after it slowed a few tenths. One of the motors tested was one of the three fastest motors I have specifically for that track. The two other 7R motors are fresh from break-in and had zero laps before tonight. They were within 0.05 secs of what I would consider a good "race motor" for that track. 

 

So far I am not seeing a huge difference in the speed of this latest batch.  


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"Whatever..."

#125 Tim Neja

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:07 PM

Mike,

 

Simply because you have and continue to do so. :)  Facts are facts - you posted at every possible opportunity about the "wonders" of the Retro Hawk. Why not own it? 


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#126 MSwiss

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:16 PM

I did because it was a great item.

Who had heard of an FK motor before that you could race in three Mains, podium in all three, and continued to get faster, and won in the third race? That was David Krumnow at Sano 7.

I probably podiumed six times with the same Retro Hawk.

That's not worthy of promotion?

It seems like you have some objection that I tout good items, so I can sell them and continue to pay my rent on time.
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#127 Tim Neja

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:29 PM

I have no objection at ALL!!  The heading of this thread says it ALL!!!  "I just want consistent motors" to race with. And pointing out that we have not been getting that the last year or so. Short shafts, soft brushes, changes in the manufacturing (reported by YOU) that Tim was again trying to "tighten up" the motors.  I just simply asked why can't he leave well enough alone? Let the motor be what it is, changes are not good. The TSR is still the SAME wind and motor it was seven years ago and it still works fine.  WHY can't Tim do that with the Retro Hawk? I don't know -  what I DO know is any dissenting opinion from you and Greg gets vilified. 

 

So be it. I didn't make anything personal like Greg. 


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#128 MSwiss

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:34 PM

OK.

Awesome.

Let's move on.


Mike Swiss
 
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#129 Cheater

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:46 PM

You're going to have to show exactly how I made it personal, Tim. Personal implies I said that you're an idiot or stupid, and nowhere did I even come close to doing that, regardless of what I might think.
 
Do you deny my quote is accurate?

"It" is a pronoun, which is "a word that substitutes for a noun. Every pronoun must have a clear antecedent (the word for which the pronoun stands," something you didn't make clear.

As for your strident demand for "consistent motors," you have failed to explain just exactly how that can be accomplished, at the level you insist has to occur, within the limitations of cost and manufacturing availability.

But Swiss is right: let's move on because you've obviously assumed your soapbox in perpetuity and seemingly cannot discuss the facts reasonably.

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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#130 Samiam

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:47 PM

I think it should be noted that the JK HR, Falcon 7, TSR, and pretty much every other so called FK style motor we use in our slot cars are custom spec'd motors. The wind our cars use - 65t/30, is more "Retro" than many think. It was a very common "hot wind" BITD. These are not the motors in your power mirrors, electric toothbrush, or marital aids.
 
The latest JK HR has been taken a few steps further by tightening up the tolerances on timing and balancing, making it more consistent. 

This issue with the wire size or more importantly the apparent performance gap was not caused by this action. It was a production variance in a plant that probably makes more motors in one day than all the slot car racers in the world will use in 10 years. Mike Swiss said it was just bad timing. The Chinese could have thrown this monkey wrench into the works at any time.
 
This is not a big deal. We can run only the new motor at big, important (to us :to_become_senile:) races or do whatever the sanctioning body you race under decides. If I had to sell my entire inventory of obsoleted JK HRs on eBay, it wouldn't bother me one bit. I'll just check the sofa cushions for motor program money.
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#131 Samiam

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:58 PM

Oh... Go Cubs. :clapping:
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#132 Cheater

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 11:06 PM

Helluva game, regardless of who wins.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#133 Phil Hackett

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 11:14 PM

Well, gentlemen, it looks like the topic will be closed soon. I have throughly enjoyed this thread while :popcorm1:  :popcorm1:  :popcorm1:.

So to all a good night and sweet dreams of the utopian motor for racing.
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#134 Cap Henry

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 06:18 AM

I think people just simply want some kind of statement or update from their series. On the outside looking in, it simply looks like it's being ignored.

I know that's not the case, just an insight how it appears.

Though not fully related, there was bound to be some hiccups in the owner transition, though this isn't Tim's fault. We do have the human factor in the mix, someone grabbed another spook of wire that wasn't the same. Hopefully Tim, the BoD, or both can come up with a solution. Sure, it's really frustrating, but getting mad at people isn't going to fix it. Less time on the keyboard, more time working on the cars, guys...
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#135 Pappy

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 06:54 AM

When the guys who bitch about wanting a more consistent motor can build a more consistent chassis then they have a right to bitch. You can build to identical chassis and one of them will be faster than the other. 


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#136 tonyp

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 06:59 AM

JK Tim is still investigating what happened with the motors. We have no definite answer yet. Dealing with Chinese vendors is a drawn out process especially with a motor quantity that is small change to them. I have worked with Chinese vendors and it takes more than a couple of days to get answers. I am sure slot motors are not their number one priority.

 

I suggest shutting down this thread until we actually have answers on what happened and how it is going to be resolved. Once that happens we can discuss with facts.


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#137 Cheater

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 07:26 AM

On the outside looking in, it simply looks like it's being ignored.

 
How so? The BoD has posted repeatedly about what is happening in terms of getting definitive info regarding the 7R and that we're not going to make a decision about what is to be done until we have definitive information.
 
Look at the various anecdotal reports individual racers have offered. Look at the results of the races that have been won with the 7R. If, say, 90% of racers were reporting the same info, that would be a different situation, but that's not what is happening. As Tony said above, the BoD needs facts, measurable, repeatable facts, before it can make a call on this. And right now, it doesn't have them.
 
Anyone who thinks the problem is being ignored must not be able to read and/or have virtually zero comprehension of what they're reading. Or have some sort of agenda.
 
I'm going to take Tony's suggestion and close this thread now.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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