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I just want consistent motors


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#51 Phil Hackett

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 10:14 AM

Maybe the ultimate solution is not to race on tracks that demand the elite motors. Flat tracks seem to even the motor thing out. King tracks accentuate motor importance.


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#52 Half Fast

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 10:25 AM

Regarding the TSR and Falcon, they had nowhere near the longevity of the Hawk Retro, thus making them more expensive (race to race) than the HR.

 

Cheers,


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#53 Steve Deiters

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 10:49 AM

Kind of a tangential question. Are there any over the counter endbells that will fit the Retro Hawk? Just curious.



#54 MSwiss

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 10:55 AM

You can get endbells to fit on the can, but they are not of any use with the stock arm, because they are timed to work with the stock endbell, which does not have the brushes at 3 and 9 o'clock.


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#55 Steve Deiters

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 10:59 AM

You can get endbells to fit on the can, but they are not of any use with the stock arm, because they are timed to work with the stock endbell, which does NOT have the brushes at 3 and 9 o'clock.


I'm think putting a different arm with compatible timing. Any brand names on the endbells?

#56 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:08 AM

- The evidence and testimony suggests pretty overwhelmingly that the new batch is as a whole slower than the old batch.
- The fact that Sam, Howie, or Tom got fast 7R motors does not change the fact that the new batch is slower.

- The fact that it's not JK Tim's fault also does not change the fact that that the new batch is slower.


Here's my only quibble with your thoroughly excellent post, Jim.

 

So far, all the evidence I've seen regarding the peformance of the 7R is what is called apocryphal or anecdotal and I don't feel any definitive conclusion can be drawn. There is no hard repeatbale data yet available to support such a claim. 


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#57 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:14 AM

Maybe the ultimate solution is not to race on tracks that demand the elite motors. Flat tracks seem to even the motor thing out. King tracks accentuate motor importance.


I wouldn't argue with this, but what can be done about it? There is a segment of the 1/24 racing community that basically refuses to race on anything other than King tracks.

To me, this is just another example illustrating how the complete lack of leadership in the overall 1/24 slot racing arena over the years has impacted the commercial raceway industry. If there had been an industry association advising that smaller tracks were a more profitable, sustainable choice for raceways (supported by solid historical data), we might be in a different place today.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#58 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:23 AM

You are very much like today's media - slanted and biased! 

 

OK... this is off-topic, but since it's out there... media bias is in the eye/ear of the consumer.  These days you have the luxury of selecting that medium which conforms to whatever warped worldview you subscribe to. The concept of "fact" is under serious attack.

 

Hey! Now that I've typed it out, I see that it's no so off-topic after all.


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#59 Noose

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:29 AM

Maybe the ultimate solution is not to race on tracks that demand the elite motors. Flat tracks seem to even the motor thing out. King tracks accentuate motor importance.

 

We don't race on all Kings and the ones that used 7Rs on the fastest one we have here - Port Jeff - were more than just fine. We have flat tracks, Engleman, and Hillclimbs in our series.


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#60 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:43 AM

A further point: anyone who has raced on commercial racks for a long time knows that what performance a particular motor exhibits is not solely determined by the motor alone. The particulars of the track's power source and the wiring arrangement feeding the lanes is a non-trivial part of the equation.

 

And that is seemingly being completely ignored in this contentious discussion.


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#61 MSwiss

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 11:58 AM

I'm think putting a different arm with compatible timing. Any brand names on the endbells?

 

The Pro Slot or JK Hawk are probably it.

 

But then using the existing Pro Slot and Koford arms for mini-motors, you need to shorten the can.

John Havilcek has built numerous motors like this, making his own custom arm. IIRC, he calls them Walnuts.

Anyway, when you were done, with the closed end can, you would essentially have a physically stronger version of a Pro Slot or JK mini-motor.


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#62 tonyp

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:09 PM

I wouldn't argue with this, but what can be done about it? There is a segment of the 1/24 racing community that basically refuses to race on anything other than King tracks.

 

To me, this is just another example illustrating how the complete lack of leadership in the overall 1/24 slot racing arena over the years has impacted the commercial raceway industry. If there had been an industry association advising that smaller tracks were a more profitable, sustainable choice for raceways (supported by solid historical data), we might be in a different place today.


Since the start of commercial slot car racing since the early '60s, the quest was always to have the biggest, baddest track around. Things like American blacks and Hillclimbs were considered junk and kiddy tracks. I pitted plenty of times on a Hillclimb while racing on the "real" track, a King or Engleman 220.

 

If the tracks were smaller all along and/or 1/32 was the preferred scale, slots would probably be much healthier now.


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#63 don.siegel

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:36 PM

Don't kid yourself, Tony - when I started racing in France, the classes were all 1/32 and the intro class was production, with a Parma International 32 chassis and a spec motor from Italy, called SME (seems it was a windshield wiper or car window motor originally). We had all the same problems, with some motors being a lot faster than others, some lasting 10 races while others barely lasted one, etc. They were theoretically sealed, but it seems any good DIY guy could take it apart and advance the timing, without leaving any traces - sound familiar? 

 

This was done to avoid having to police the standard Parma 16D motors, but still doesn't seem to have worked all that well. Plus, there were restrictions on bending the chassis to get a lower CoG, but that was always a rather vague area. I eventually worked my way up to where I was a semi-final contender, and occassionally a final - but there was still a pretty big speed gap between the top handful of racers and the rest, probably down to natural tuning and driving talent more than anything else, but the rumors were still there. 

 

Nonetheless, I had a lot of very enjoyable races! 

 

After a few years the national federation switched to 1/24 Flexi/Super 16D and X12/open chassis cars - probably a bit more consistent, but the best guys still won - drat! 

 

On the other hand, we had mostly flat tracks, but a few were still longer, where speed counted more. 

 

Don 


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#64 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:43 PM

Don,

 

I won't speak for Tony but my comment was mostly concerned with the less square footage required by the smaller tracks, thus making for more affordable, sustainable rent/lease payments for the raceway owners.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#65 don.siegel

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:55 PM

Ah, duly noted Greg, I kind of jumped the gun on that... but of course the whole point is to have a track, in any scale, where you can really unleash your car! 

 

I thought Tony was referring more to 1/32 cars being equal, lower cost, less competitive... 

 

Don 



#66 tonyp

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:58 PM

I was on the same thought process as Greg.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#67 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 01:10 PM

JimF wrote: Pointing out that JK Tim has to fix it is silly. He can't fix it. It also doesn't matter what happened or why. It is what it is. The various governing bodies can't fix it either. But... It is however, the responsibility of the governing bodies to figure out how to deal with it.

 

Jim hit the nail right on the head!


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#68 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 01:25 PM

My F1 at the Sano had a 7R motor in it. It is the same motor that is in it now and the same that was in it when I got to Chicago. I never paid attention to which markings were on my motors. Mike pointed out to me at the race that i had a 7R. To say anything about it being anything else is ridiculous.

 

I don't know if it is a punch bowl winner or not but it was fast at Chicagoland. The picture I posted of the motor shows the markings and i had to shoot a few pics to catch the 7R markings. The flash in the tech sheet pic wiped out the detail of the markings.

 

I have been getting two fast motors out of 10 with all my Hawks, whether they are marked Made in China or R Made in China, so if Hansen has two 7R fast ones out of 6 he is doing really good.

 

If we need to do hand-out Retro Hawk motors at big races or whatever, it doesn't make any difference to me.


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#69 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 01:48 PM

Fastest of R Hawk Retro motor is faster than Fastest of 7R Hawk Retro motor. That has been verified by the manufacturer.

 

Fastest of the R Hawk Retro motors are still out there in unknown quantities but can no longer be purchased.

 

Punch bowl King track races is where this discrepancy will mostly likely show up.

 

As mentioned before by myself and others, "It is the responsibility of the governing bodies to figure out how to deal with it."


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#70 Cap Henry

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 01:58 PM

Everyone can send me their fastest of the R motors and I'll happily "dispose" of them LOL.
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#71 John Streisguth

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 02:16 PM

Fastest of R Hawk Retro motor is faster than Fastest of 7R Hawk Retro motor. That has been verified by the manufacturer.
 
Fastest of the R Hawk Retro motors are still out there in unknown quantities but can no longer be purchased.
 
Punch bowl King track races is where this discrepancy will mostly likely show up.
 
As mentioned before by myself and others, "It is the responsibility of the governing bodies to figure out how to deal with it."


And does anyone have details of exactly how this was "verified"? Was this on a dyno? Was this on a track? If so, what kind of track and car? What break-in process was used (if any)? If it was simply taking a sampling of motors straight of the production line and putting them on a power supply and taking some readings, it may or may not have anything to do with how the motors perform on the track.  
 
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that "rocket" motors are in the 7R batch, too.  
 
We still have not had any word about the possibility of undersize wire being on some motors, or some issue that would cause the armatures to ohm out higher than the previous batch. IMO, no conclusion can be made at this time about what the "situation" is, and what (if anything) can or will be done about it.  
 
Geez, so many people getting their panties in a bunch before all the information is available.   :dash2:


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#72 Zippity

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 02:18 PM

Go flat - Go fast - have fun.   :) :)

 

Track800_600wm.JPG


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#73 MSwiss

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 02:22 PM

Fastest of R Hawk Retro motor is faster than Fastest of 7R Hawk Retro motor. That has been verified by the manufacturer.
 
Fastest of the R Hawk Retro motors are still out there in unknown quantities but can no longer be purchased.
 
Punch bowl King track races is where this discrepancy will mostly likely show up.
 
As mentioned before by myself and others, "It is the responsibility of the governing bodies to figure out how to deal with it."

 

JK Tim hasn't verified anything. Everything he quoted were dyno numbers.

His goal was to eliminate any motors with out of spec, high or low timing.

Whether there were 1, 10, or 100 of those motors, with that out of spec high timing, who knows?

And whether they would translate to anything useful on the track is debatable. Along with higher dyno RPM readings, comes less brakes and less bottom end.

Bottom line, the only real verification is Howie's recent win at the Sano, and the recent wins at BP, by Sam Rackham and Duran's team, with 7R motors.

PS: Looks like John S posted basically the same thing as me. LOL.


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#74 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 02:40 PM

Looks like Mike Swiss beat me to it. Tim: your first line is wrong. JK data is from a dyno. It is not on-track data.


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#75 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 04:23 PM

Bottom line, the only real verification is Howie's recent win at the Sano, and the recent wins at BP, by Sam Rackham and Duran's team, with 7R motors.

 

Mike,

 

Even though you touted the winning 7R motor of Sam Rackman in the Boola Bash F1 race, Sam never broke 4.2 in best lap time of the A Main. Previous winners in the F1 race for several month's past were in the 4.0s. The Can Am race the same day had podium winners running 4.0's with R motors. I would be willing to bet Sam has some R motors in his box or other cars that are faster than his winning F1 car.  Team Duran winning the Enduro with a 7R motor? Totally different type of race as the word "Enduro" suggests.

 

Several of us have purchased 7R motors that are noticeably slower than the R motors we were used to. Let me give you an example. I purchased a 7R motor for the monthly Wing car race at BPR as my last motor had worn out. This race is full punch no braking for six of the eight lanes. In other words, no driving skills required other than allowing for an occasional pass. My best time was 3.4 laps where I was in the 3.2s previously. The rest of the field was running 3.2s or better with the R motors. Time will bear all this out with the current batch of 7R motors.

 

I'm not saying just throw out the whole batch of 7R motors. JK Products made a big investment and we will support them with our purchases. However, there is a discrepancy and adjustments should and need to be made, especially in the big races. Making excuses is not the way to handle this issue. Listen to the racers, accept the discrepancy, make adjustments, and let's race.


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