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#26 John Streisguth

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 03:55 PM

Another post, sorry but it's slightly different subject then the previous post.

 

In my long racing career I had many instances where I had built motors that weren't competitive. I would just put them back into a drawer and turn my attention to the good ones. Every once in a while I might need a mule for testing, breaking-in tires, practice and I'd pull one of these motors out. Much to my surprise they'd turned into monsters while dwelling in the dark drawer. Not only were they fast but they would somehow last longer than the motors that were initially quick.

 

So much for consistency. 

 

How much do you want for that drawer? :D


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#27 Samiam

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 04:02 PM

Phil,

 

Can I send you some motors to spend some time in that drawer? If it works it will obsolete "Turbo-Blasting."


Sam Levitch
 
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#28 havlicek

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 04:23 PM

I'm glad this discussion has stayed both cordial as well as mostly on-track (whew!). I *think* that there are some unrealistic expectations when it comes to this general topic. As Steve Okeefe so rightly put it:
 

In response I would suggest that there is no such thing as a level playing field when it comes to parts, and in particular to motors.  Some will always work better than others as they themselves have complained about.

 
Certainly, at least being "in the ballpark" of motor-sameness is what has made "Retro" so popular, but that's where I think people ought to let it go. When time after time (*and for decades) you see the same people generally showing up on the podium, there's a lot more going on than "what batch of motors theirs came from." In sealed motor racing, only one variable has been removed, there are countless other mechancal variables... and all of those don't even take into account the biggest variable... the driver. Even so, considering that there will always be "cherries" in a bunch of mass-produced motors and that some people will buy dozens just to get those, Steve's take on the "equal playing field" is something I couldn't agree with more. It's called "racing" because there will always be some who are just better at it and end up winning. From where I sit, I can't imagine any more "equal" motors and so affordable to boot. The winner will always be the guy who finishes the race first, not necessarily the guy who turns the fastest lap.

This one by Noose made me laugh so hard I almost had boogers flying out of nose:
 

My bet, just based on my own observations, is that 80% of the items used in slot racing are not consistently made the "exact same."
 
I do not care if it's bodies, guides, tires, or axles. Not even piano wire.

 

That's only because it's true! Even more, I've tried to build chassis with two pieces of piano wire bent the same way, and sometimes the stuff just won't do the same thing twice... SON-OF-A-YOU-KNOW-WHAT!
 
-john


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#29 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 05:09 PM

 I've tried to build chassis with two pieces of piano wire bent the same way, and sometimes the stuff just won't do the same thing twice... SON-OF-A-YOU-KNOW-WHAT!

 

I am glad to hear that. I thought the problem was I could not do the same thing to it twice.

 

OK... return to the subject now.


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#30 MSwiss

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 05:22 PM

the way the Retro Hawk motors are made which in turn, can certainly affect motor consistency performance. I'll just quote what Bryan Warmack wrote and leave it at that.

 C)  Different magnetic cogging?  

 
A little reminder, along with the JK vendor buying their wire from a wire vendor, they also buy their magnets from a magnet vendor.

I'm not surprised they might not be identical from batch to batch.
 
At Koford, one time (and not from China) we got a magnet material that was absolutely killer, and when we reordered, it was unusable. They said they couldn't replicate the first batch, and of course, lost our future business.
 
On the subject of brakes, I've heard and read off hand comments how the new 7R motors have better brakes and are running real cool.
 
Has anyone tried throwing more gear at the 7R motors that have run slow for them?
 
PS: On the subject of piano wire, along with K&S 3/32" piano wire certainly varying from batch to batch, requiring, none or some, reaming of fronts, to allow them to spin, I've bought precut brass pieces regularly from them since the start of Retro racing.
 
When I mentioned to them I had one batch of 1/8" brass tube gear sleeves that measured .125" OD and another, .1235", their answer was something like "And?" :)


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#31 tonyp

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 06:19 PM

LOL.


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#32 Zippity

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 06:41 PM

.... I would just put them back into a drawer and turn my attention to the good ones. Every once in a while I might need a mule for testing, breaking-in tires, practice and I'd pull one of these motors out. Much to my surprise they'd turned into monsters while dwelling in the dark drawer. Not only were they fast but they would somehow last longer than the motors that were initially quick.

 

So much for consistency. 

 

You mean that is a normal occurrence?

 

The same thing happened to me a few weeks back with an old (or so I thought) PS4002FK motor.

 

I thought that maybe it had been pyramided.  :)



#33 Mike Patterson

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 09:54 PM

Since several have mentioned production tolerances as the explanation for the variation in Hawk Retro motor performance, what exactly are the tolerances? I know wire size, number of turns, etc., are specified in the IRRA® motor specs, but what about everything else? Can material and thickness, bushing material, magnet composition, arm shaft diameter and material, for example. And let's not forget arm lamination material, design, thickness and number of. Do these items have a standard spec?

 

If not, well, there's your answer, folks. Too many variables.


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#34 Phil Hackett

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 11:33 PM

The magic drawer is no longer. The desk it was in met a very untimely demise by a lightning strike. Something about being unholy. :D


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#35 Phil Hackett

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 11:41 PM

You mean that is a normal occurrence?
 
The same thing happened to me a few weeks back with an old (or so I thought) PS4002FK motor.
 
I thought that maybe it had been pyramided.  :)

 
It seems that did happen occasionally. Just keep yours away from windows on dark stormy days. :laugh2:

 

Screen Shot 2016-11-03 at 9.39.52 PM.png
 
The darker it is the better it works. If you listen closely there's some chanting and you'll smell the scent of burnt armatures coming from it.


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#36 havlicek

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 05:36 AM

More on this. I'm surprised no one has spent much time on this:
 

Actually, the fact that some will buy a whole bunch of the "FK" Chinese motors to find one or two cherries 

 

... and put differently by Steve O'Keefe:
 

Some years ago at my local raceway (now defunct) it was very common to hear racers complain endlessly about "Chinese junk" motors, and how "you had to buy 10 just to get one that runs well".

 
While it's true that all sorts of variables make it impossible for motors to be truly "consistent," the fact that people (at least some?) will go through so many to find stand-outs, could be seen as proof of how consistent the motors are *because they are actually looking for the few on the high end of the bell curve!


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#37 Tex

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 09:26 AM

Correct. the vast majority are consistent... just not "stand-outs". The problem is that most people want them ALL to be "stand-outs." Then you're back in the same ballpark... all consistent "stand-outs" with people buying dozens to find the one "super stand-out". LOL.
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#38 tonyp

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 09:31 AM

Regardless of what type of motor it is, cheap Chinese or handbuilts, there never be equal performance motor to motor. I'd rather chase a good $13 motor than a $50 one.
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#39 Cheater

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 09:39 AM

Since several have mentioned production tolerances as the explanation for the variation in Hawk Retro motor performance, what exactly are the tolerances? I know wire size, number of turns, etc., are specified in the IRRA® motor specs, but what about everything else? Can material and thickness, bushing material, magnet composition, arm shaft diameter and material, for example. And let's not forget arm lamination material, design, thickness and number of. Do these items have a standard spec?


No, because quite frankly IRRA® simply doesn't have the pull or power to affect these specifications, primarily because of the small number of motors ordered to satisfy our little niche market. Keep in mind that these motors are a standard form factor motor listed in almost all of the Chinese motor makers' catalogs that can be ordered with a specified wind and likely very few other options.

If any of the additional specs you mentioned had changed, I believe the sharp Mr. Warmack would have noted that in his list in that other thread. And he did not.

One hobby notable with significant experience in sourcing motors for the hobby from Chinese makers has suggested privately that vendors producing motors for the slot car market are smaller manufacturers who target the business that Mabuchi isn't interested in because of the small volumes. He believes they're basically winding and assembly shops and that most if not all source their components from a single larger maker, possibly Mabuchi China. (Though based in Japan, Mabuchi has 13 factories in various countries.)


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#40 MSwiss

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 02:33 PM

Randy Kohr just TQ'd the GTC-FK (non-pro) 7R hand-out race with a 5.26.

Matt Bruce TQ'd the non-driver restricted Coupe race earlier in the week using a 7R with a 5.25.

A few things to add;
1) Randy is a top racer.
2) Noose volunteered the track is in top condition.

Noose also added Ed Sohl had an F1 flying with a 7R.

So there is still info that needs to be known.

But I personally will take from this that the person who brought the 7R situation into the limelight, made his (paraphrasing) "all are .4 slower" and "they can't be raced with older motors" comments as hyperbole, meant to stir up the easily stirred up on FB.


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#41 swodem

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:04 PM

I can take my time, wind and build ten motors, be as careful as I can doing them all the same, use the same basic components, do the same assembly... and wind up with noticeable variations (on the power supply anyway) between them.

 

I'd just like to inject a little dispassionate reality into the whole question around these things. Now, take that same premise, but apply it to a batch of maybe (?) a hundred thousand or so motors mass-produced to meet a low price point, and I find it shocking that the variations aren't huge!

 

Actually, the fact that some will buy a whole bunch of the "FK" Chinese motors to find one or two cherries only underscores how consistent (generally-speaking) the motors are.

 

This is a great post and all FK racers should read this slowly and think about it. Even handmade motors vary.

 

Our local governing body is about to release voting on whether we move (backwards) from PS4002FK to Hawk 7. They both have their pros and cons, but my view at least is you get a good long life out of a 4002, compared to the two-maybe-three races of a H7. So cheaper, easier, and more consistent. Yes, the H7 is nicer power. But there are fast and slow in all of them and most slow 4002s with a little effort can be coaxed back to being 'average' where a H7 if its average there's nothing legal can be done. 



#42 smichslot

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:11 PM

Consistency???

 

I perfectly understand why racers want all the motor in any given class to be absolutely the same. To most racer this appears to be a fair basis for close racing, and they are probably right. At least to some degree.

 

Let's imagine that we allow a tolerance of 1%.

 

The manufaturer of the motors will immediately ask:

 

OK, you know that we will have to reject a lot of parts, which will make the cost increase. And then you will also have to pay for our efforts spent when sorting the parts in our incoming inspection, right?

 

Of course!!!!

 

Then the manufacturer will ask: since you accept a maximum tolerance of 1% I presume that you accept 1% tolerance on the wire thickness, the strength of the magnets, the distance of the magnets to the armature, the alignment along the armature axis, the total lenght of the wire used to wind the armature, the resistance in the brushes, the position of the brushes, the spring pressure on the brushes, the alignment of the bushings, the opening in the bushings, the straightness of the axel of the armature, and yakityakityyakityyakityyak.

 

The acceptance of a 1% tolerance all these places can easily result in a performance-loss of several percent if the tolerances all fall in the wrong direction. And they can result in an increase of performance if they fall in the other direction.

 

I don't think that any of the racers are really prepared to pay for 0.1% tolerances. It's probably cheaper to buy 50 motors and do the testing to find the silver bullet.

 

And the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. The really good guys are able to win with one of the motors that has been tossed by a mid-pack-racer.

 

Get over it. It's only toy cars!

 

Steen


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#43 Cheater

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:20 PM

Excellent post, Steen!


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#44 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:41 PM

Randy Kohr just TQ'd the GTC-FK (non-pro) 7R hand-out race with a 5.26.

Matt Bruce TQ'd the non-driver restricted Coupe race earlier in the week using a 7R with a 5.25.

A few things to add;
1) Randy is a top racer.
2) Noose volunteered the track is in top condition.

Noose also added Ed Sohl had an F1 flying with a 7R.

So there is still info that needs to be known.

But I personally will take from this that the person who brought the 7R situation into the limelight, made his (paraphrasing) "all are .4 slower" and "they can't be raced with older motors" comments as hyperbole, meant to stir up the easily stirred up on FB.

 

Just for your info, Swiss. Matt and Howie were not running their good race motors or cars in the warm-up race.

 

Also, no matter how much you try to spin it even JK has said the new motors may be slower then the last batch.

 

That the new motors appear to be more constant will far outweigh them possibly being a bit slower in the long run. If indeed they have better brakes and run cooler they may be able to pick up the lost speed with a tooth smaller crown gear. 9/27 instead of 9/28 as you suggested. Or maybe with better brakes you maybe able to run harder into the corners.  

 

Smart racers will find a way to compete with them. I am sure of that.

 

Regards,

 

GVP  


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#45 swodem

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:46 PM

Having perfectly equal motors is only one thing in a long line of variables that make for fast lap times, such as

  • Drive train efficiency (gear quality, mesh, bearings/bushing accuracy and quality, axle quality)
  • Electrical efficiency (braid cleanliness, lead wire conductivity, and solder joint quality)
  • Controller 
  • Tyres, choice of and concentricity
  • Chassis Handling and set-up, weight
  • Gear ratio (I bet there are people out there with awesome motors geared all wrong)
  • Body choice and mounting
  • Driver skill and track knowledge (some times you're just out-gunned!!)

I'd work on making sure all the above are perfect before crying that someone else seems to have a motor that makes their lap times 3% better...


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#46 MSwiss

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:53 PM

GVP,

 

That's fine.

And Randy just went 5.23, two heats in a row. Steve L just ran .16 faster than he did in the warm-up.

I'm sure the track is awesome.

But as my earlier post mentions, I think the notion that a "red-haired step child class" needed to be created for the "poor" 7R was a bit premature.


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#47 Noose

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 03:54 PM

Well, so far in GTC-FK Randy Kohr has set new lap time records on every lane he has run.


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#48 B.C.

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 04:59 PM

Don't let that get out - what will there be to bitch about? Or to start another new motor thread whining about perceived inequities in someone's 13 dollar motors.


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#49 Samiam

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 06:05 PM

Since several have mentioned production tolerances as the explanation for the variation in Hawk Retro motor performance, what exactly are the tolerances? I know wire size, number of turns, etc., are specified in the IRRA® motor specs, but what about everything else? Can material and thickness, bushing material, magnet composition, arm shaft diameter and material, for example. And let's not forget arm lamination material, design, thickness and number of. Do these items have a standard spec?

 
You can specify most of these variables to John when having a custom H-Power motor built. But when you are buying $13 motors all you get is number of winds, thickness of wire, timing, and magnet type.
 
John,
 
How are you coming along with my order? :D


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#50 MSwiss

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 08:52 PM

From the Fall Brawl GTC-Pro FK race with handout 7R motors.

 

In qualifying, there was only a .068 spread, from 1st-8th, and the spread from 1st-12th, was only .103,

In the race, a total lap record was set, and only two laps separated 1st-5th and 8 laps, 1st through 8th.

 

In comparison, at the last big Retro race, the Boola Bash, using any circa Hawk Retro, or Falcon 7, in qualifying, the spread from 1st-8th, was .179, and the spread from 1st-12th was .269.

 

In the race, 10 laps separated 1st-5th and 15 laps, 1st through 8th.

 

On the longer 220' SpeedZone Engleman, the slower/"longer" qualifying times should vary more, but the lap totals (on the longer lap length) should be a bit closer.

 

Regardless, with these 7R handouts, the results were way more consistent, just like Tim was shooting for when tightening up the tolerances.

 

And the track records in qualifying, single race lap time, and total laps, certainly DOESN'T indicate that a top 7R motor doesn't stand a chance against a top, older motor, as some guys were trying to interpret from Tim's dyno/non-real world graphs.

 

The above isn't any proof that maybe there are slow/small wire ones. (Please note the non ra-ra/non-positive, but realistic statement.)

 

But at least in the tray SpeedZone got, they appear to be "normal"/plenty fast, and more importantly, not mixed.

 


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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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