Jump to content




Photo

What else to do with a D motor


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,477 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 17 November 2016 - 08:39 PM

Since I'm all about fun with this stuff, and having fun doesn't necessarily mean expensive parts or even "period correct," here's another D motor project.  
 
This time, the can is of the Russkit "22"/"23" type, my favorite of the Mabuchis. They're still around in various states of decomposition :) , can easily be reamed out to accept either a 5mm or 6mm bushing, are very light but also plenty strong enough, and are are well formed.  
 
Soooo, of course, the big problem is the Mabuchi "auto-melt" endbell. The Tradeship and Champion alternatives aren't much, if any better either. Here, I simply used a Parma.  :D  The only issue with this is that the Parma is pre-drilled, but otherwise is a perfect fit. After some thought, I figured a way to match the endbell drilling to new can holes. In the past, doing this was... er... not always successful, but this time it worked very nicely!

IMG_1818%20copy_zpsztlgf27u.jpg
 
... a little arm dye so I could see what I was doing, and some layout with the back end of an X-Acto blade to scribe my marks, along with some planning was all it took. N-E-waze, I'll do a little more hacking... er... "customizing" to the old girl and will have a very nice D. Not very "correct," but sometimes it's good to rock the boat!
 
-john
  • slotbaker, Pablo, B.C. and 4 others like this
John Havlicek




#2 olescratch

olescratch

    olescratch

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 362 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ravenna, OH

Posted 17 November 2016 - 10:19 PM

Nicely done!  One heck of a use of a good endbell from a not-so-good can, replacing a poor endbell on a really nice can.
  • SlotStox#53 likes this
John Stewart

#3 Geary Carrier

Geary Carrier

    all there...???

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 67 posts
  • Joined: 23-April 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CT

Posted 17 November 2016 - 10:49 PM

I love the smell of Dykem in the morning...


Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#4 SlotStox#53

SlotStox#53

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,715 posts
  • Joined: 13-March 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:TX

Posted 17 November 2016 - 11:48 PM

Fantastic idea. :D Looks just like a custom endbell from back in the day.

#5 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,477 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 18 November 2016 - 06:54 AM

Thanks for looking in, guys.  

Of course, I still like the old motors and bringing them back to life, but these sort of mash-ups make sense to me as well. It just seems as though we sometimes get so far into a certain way of doing things, we forget about having fun.  

Here, the Mabuchi can is still a very good starting point, and may even have a slight advantage in terms of field strength.. .maybe. The Parma endbell is fine from a function standpoint, although I'll make a few changes (easy ones) there as well... maybe not "sexy," but it's sturdy, has good airflow for keeping things cool by the comm, and there's no reason why it shouldn't top off this motor.  

I always hated trying to match can drilling to an endbell that came already drilled, but the fact that the Parma is yellow actually played a role in helping that work out.

I've finished with the rest of the can/magnet work and have a first coat of paint done. A bit of wet-sanding and a second coat, and I can set aside the can.

Pix later.
 
-john
  • olescratch likes this
John Havlicek

#6 Steve Okeefe

Steve Okeefe

    We're all mad here

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 952 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greencastle, PA

Posted 18 November 2016 - 10:15 AM

John,
 
Well, lack of diversity across our hobby in approaches to building is clearly not a problem, although it is certain not everyone will be happy with a combination like this.  :nea:
 
Personally I don't see it as any more outrageous than a Ram-Boochi or a Simco "Motor Brush Adaptor," but it does strike me as being more than a little bit like a May-December marriage.
 
Still, mash-ups like this are the essence of Resto-Mods and Hot-Rodding, and its "correctness" is a matter of point-of-view - and all views are valid.
 
Nevertheless, I would hope that the eventual recipient of this customization will have some respect for the old girl. If for example this motor should end up soldered into an original Parma Flexi with a shabby wing-body stuck on top, being used as a "beater" to keep a bored ten year old busy, that would be an actual shame.
 
Kibitz alert!  :prankster2:  How a bout a nice double #30 (with insulation color to compliment the endbell) star wind with California timing? Would go well in a Thingie or an early 1968 inline chassis.
 
Rock on...
  • havlicek, boxerdog and olescratch like this

#7 old & gray

old & gray

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts
  • Joined: 15-April 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CT

Posted 18 November 2016 - 10:40 AM

The only regret I would have for this motor is the lack of the an endbell mounting option.
 
As to the combination can and endbell from different sources, remember these?

Hemi-Buchi can and endbell.jpeg
  • havlicek likes this
Bob Schlain

#8 Steve Okeefe

Steve Okeefe

    We're all mad here

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 952 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greencastle, PA

Posted 18 November 2016 - 09:51 PM

I do!
 
The can was manufactured by Igarashi and marketed by Pactra as part of their X-88 motor:
 
Pactra Hemi X-88 01.jpg
 
Pactra Hemi X-88 02.jpg
 
Pactra Hemi X-88 03.jpg
 
The endbell is pretty much universally acknowledged to be a Tradeship part, although I've never seen one in a Tradeship (or any other vendor's) package.  Maybe someone out there has a photo?
 
Both parts date to the mid to late '60s, so they make a reasonable set.  :good:
  • havlicek likes this

#9 Kim Lander

Kim Lander

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  • Joined: 06-June 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Macon, GA

Posted 19 November 2016 - 07:13 AM

Love the old motors, those Hemi motors were fun.

Thank you, John, for keeping the history going.
  • havlicek likes this

#10 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,477 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 19 November 2016 - 07:29 AM

Hi Guys,
 

Personally I don't see it as any more outrageous than a Ram-Boochi or a Simco "Motor Brush Adaptor," but it does strike me as being more than a little bit like a May-December marriage.

 
Ha! Yeah, Steve, that would be an apt description alright! Certainly these type combinations get done all the time with fewer and fewer clean Mabuchi (or Tradeship) endbells around. Even if someone suddenly found a few thousand in a warehouse somewhere, there's still the whole issue with "why" so few of them are around... they melt when you look at them sideways, and then too most of the survivors are cracked around the bushing.  

 

"Correct"? Nah... but we're having fun and there are even good reasons why the Mabuchi can is still a viable alternative to the modern D-can.
 

Kibitz alert!   :prankster2:  How a bout a nice double #30 (with insulation color to compliment the endbell) star wind with California timing? Would go well in a Thingie or an early 1968 inline chassis.

 
Wellp... double winds aren't a problem, star winds are off my radar (even though they were a brief blip on the slot radar), and I have no idea what California Timing even is... but I'm a devout East Coaster.  ;)  You are such a troublemaker!   :D
 

The only regret I would have for this motor is the lack of the an endbell mounting option.
 
As to the combination can and endbell from different sources, remember these?

 
Hey Bob, there's no "real" reason why a creative scratchbuilder couldn't slam this thing into an endbell drive chassis (as long as there were enough shaft on that end). I hear tell that "someone" (I won't mention names, I'll just look at the guilty party named Steve and whistle) has even already worked out such a solution.  :D  

Here's a thing. For a while, I used some Champion 16D endbells on my builds because clean examples were more available. Even those made people all uncomfortable because of the larger bushing area, meaning they wouldn't just "drop right in" to a bracket designed for the Mabuchi. The way I see it, if this were the 1960's and suddenly... somehow these endbells appeared, you just know that people would quickly figure a way to mount them endbell drive. No doubt, it would present a bit of an engineering challenge, but people built all sorts of cars around motors that were never intended for a slot car.  

 

Having said all that, can drive is definitely the way to go here. For an endbell drive D, the best option that comes to mind would be one of the Mura endbells. They're basically a Mabuchi, but molded out of proper end bell material. Then too... they're scarcer than hen's teeth, and more expensive if you do find one. Even worse, if you find one that's in good shape, but with a worn bushing, you'd have to make a replacement, which means small machining capabilities. Not exactly something very common for the average "joe." 

Back on your post, those Igarashi cans are as thin as tissue paper. Being of a one-piece "drawn" design/manufacture, they're strong enough, although to be screwed-in as a can mount (without soldering); Rick T jumped through some impressive hoops to make that happen.  Still, the example is sort of a period analog to what's going on here.  The stock end bellhad/has a really goofy brush arrangement with what look like rod-shaped pencil leads in front of what look like really small ball point pen springs!!! Too bad, because the endbell was made out of a hard/durable material that's far superior to the Mabuchi's "candle wax."
 

The endbell is pretty much universally acknowledged to be a Tradeship part, although I've never seen one in a Tradeship (or any other vendor's) package.  Maybe someone out there has a photo?

 
Yeah, Steve, that's a strange thing. I don't remember them at all from the 1960s (much less in a Tradeship package), but I didn't pay that much attention. I use the name "Tradeship" just because I see others use it, but I don't know that it's actually true they are a "Tradeship" part and marketed by them. Another slot car mystery from the foggy past!
 
-john


  • B.C. and boxerdog like this
John Havlicek

#11 Steve Okeefe

Steve Okeefe

    We're all mad here

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 952 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greencastle, PA

Posted 19 November 2016 - 03:50 PM

John sez: ... double winds aren't a problem, star winds are off my radar (even though they were a brief blip on the slot radar), and I have no idea what California Timing even is... but I'm a devout East Coaster.  ;)  You are such a troublemaker!  :D ".

 

Troublemakers - R - Us, at your service!  :sarcastic_hand:

 

Consider these two photos of cars from the same August, 1967 CM race:

 

6708 4th CM Gross Sports top.jpg

 

Above is Sandy Gross' car, and below is Terry Schmid's.  Sandy is from New York and Terry is from California.  Both cars are endbell drive, but note the positions of the crown gears; Sandy's is on the left and Terry's is on the right.

 

6708 4th CM Schmid Sports top.jpg

 

What that means is Sandy's motor rotates CCW and Terry's rotates CW.  We used to call that "California timing".

 

When anglewinders came along in April 1968, the chassis themselves had to be built to match the motor rotation.  Consider these two photos from a USRA-MCS race in April (the first anglewinder race) and an Arco race in May:

 

680420 2ndUSRA-MCS Schmid Car top.jpg

 

Above is another Terry Schmid car, and below is an early Bob Emott chassis.  Bob was from New Jersey and Terry was still from California.  Both cars are still endbell drive, but Terry's spur gear is on the left, and Bob's is on the right.

 

680518 Columbus Arco Emott Sports top.jpg

 

Once again, the car from New Jersey has a motor that rotates CCW, where the car from California has a motor that rotates CW...  California timing.

 

:curtsey:   :laugh2:


  • hiline2, havlicek and slotcar55man like this

#12 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,477 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 20 November 2016 - 07:32 AM

Ahhh...so now I understand!  Mr Emmot was "correct" and "California timing" is backwards!  Hmmm, there's a lesson in there somewhere.  :D  Just kidding Steve.

 

-john


John Havlicek

#13 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,526 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 20 November 2016 - 08:00 AM

Just a side note.....Terry Schmid's #1 car painted by Noose.


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#14 Kim Lander

Kim Lander

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  • Joined: 06-June 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Macon, GA

Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:21 AM

John...California always does things backwards.....lololol


  • boxerdog likes this

#15 Steve Okeefe

Steve Okeefe

    We're all mad here

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 952 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greencastle, PA

Posted 20 November 2016 - 06:04 PM

Okay boys and girls, just for the record, and before anyone out there selectively misunderstands, John in post #12 was just kidding (he said so), and yours truly, in post #11, did NOT say California does things backwards.  John knows that, I know that, and now you know that.

 

I said pro motors built there in 1967 and 1968 turned clockwise (CW) as opposed to pro motors built on the east coast which turned counterclockwise (CCW).  This resulted in four different ways you could build your anglewinder, and only one of them would work with your motor!  We used the term "California timing" to help us remember which side to put the spur gear on.  :mosking:


  • havlicek likes this

#16 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,477 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 20 November 2016 - 08:36 PM

 

 

Okay boys and girls, just for the record, and before anyone out there selectively misunderstands, John in post #12 was just kidding (he said so), and yours truly, in post #11, did NOT say California does things backwards.  John knows that, I know that, and now you know that.

 

Absotively Steve!  Heck, I knew nothing about what the true building and racing innovators were doing back then.  I was too worried about how not to melt an end bell.  :D  Most of the history stuff I only learned since coming to SlotBlog.  

Anyway (and speaking of history), I think it's important on the one hand to rebuild/recreate the vintage stuff as close as possible.  I still think old Mabuchi, Mura, Champion motors are very cool.  On the other hand, there's loads of fun to be had not just in modifying them, but also using modern analogs (D and C motors and some others) so you can build and run cars very much like the old ones using affordable and easy-to-source modern parts.  It may not be exactly "vintage", but it is very much "vintage style"!

 

-john


  • Samiam and olescratch like this
John Havlicek

#17 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,526 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 20 November 2016 - 09:31 PM

I frequently use the older Parma 16-Ds to power vintage cars. The endbells are the over under style and the cans aren't stamped " PARMA " .

 

I'm going to try squaring off the can hole like John often does. Gives it more of that vintage look.


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#18 boxerdog

boxerdog

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Joined: 10-November 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Modesto, CA

Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:32 PM

No offense taken! It's OBVIOUS that large numbers of Californians are backwards. 


David Cummerow

#19 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,477 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 21 November 2016 - 07:30 AM

Love the old motors, those Hemi motors were fun.

Thank you, John, for keeping the history going.

 

Thanks Kim, but when it comes to keeping the history going, guys like Steve (*and Rick T, to name just two) are doing waaaaaaaaay more than I ever could, and the pictures and info above is just a small example.  I'm happy to be doing whatever odd things I do is all.

 

-john


John Havlicek

#20 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,477 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 23 November 2016 - 08:46 PM

So, I got pretty much all of this "vintage style" motor done.
IMG_1819_zps2spwfj28.jpg

 

I made up a different sticker for it because the whole yellow thing (*with black end bell screws) sort of lent itself to a particular "thang".  The motor got grabbed-up and the grabber wanted a skewed-lam doublewind, so I did a #29 double :)  The end bell got button head screws to replace the stock phillips head ones, and I tossed the skinny spring posts and installed a set of shortened Professor Motor brass ones.  Interesting thing is that, if I stick a normal arm in the motor, there's noticeably more cog when you turn the arm than in the PS can with the same magnets and air gap.  Whether this translates into faster/more powerful is anybody's guess.  I don't think I ever did a #29 double in one of these type motors, and certainly not a #29 double with a skewed stack, so I have nothing to compare it to.  Then again, the "joy of discovery" is 3/4 the fun of building these things!

 

-john


  • slotbaker, Samiam, olescratch and 2 others like this
John Havlicek





Electric Dreams Online Shop