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Some neat older (but not THAT old) things


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 10:30 AM

These came here the other day from a blogger, among some other things. I'm still not sure what to do with them, but among the stuff was this chassis, described as having belonged to the person's grandfather. I don't know if it was an off-the-shelf pre-assembled item or was a kit (or available in both forms), but it's a nice chassis.  
 
It's a basic plumber with no "flop." The center section is also one piece with the motor box which was formed by folding the rear upwards.  It was pretty corroded, and some of the joints were broken and just needed to be reflowed with some acid as there was already a lot of solder there. Afterwards, I gave it a pretty healthy going over with brushes and both coarse and fine Scotchbrite pads. I'd give it a tumble if I had a tumbler as a final way to clean and smooth things up, but I don't have one and I think it's fine now anyway.  
 
It will fit a "C" can motor, but I have a feeling it was designed with some of the later smaller motors... or maybe not. Anyway, it has actual front half-axles intended for... wheels!, so that's another big plus as far as I'm concerned.  
 
So, it's a little bit of history... not ancient history, but history anyway. Maybe someone else can fill in the info on what this chassis is.

IMG_1857_zpsjdwhqyck.jpg

IMG_1858_zpsgl9ujwbu.jpg
 
The other item I chose to highlight here is a Koford "27" armature. I cleaned the com with some Scotchbrite to meter it, and it reads right in the "zone" where my #27awg arms come in, but I think the "27" here refers to some group. I wouldn't know about such things.  

In any case, it's a lovely armature, even though it has a short in it somewhere, so even if it runs, it probably wouldn't run as well as it should. Still, it's a lovely piece of work (I've never seen a Koford arm that wasn't) and is signed by someone named "Clyde" who I would guess wound it. To me, it's a good thing to give recognition where recognition is due, so props to both Koford and Clyde. For obvious reasons, I can really appreciate what went into this. I wouldn't know the "vintage" of the armature, but the big hooked tabs do date it somewhat... I think? Oh and, it's s small diameter arm of around .475"-.480".

IMG_1859_zpsmivmmydc.jpg

IMG_1860_zpsty0ck7em.jpg
 
-john
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John Havlicek




#2 Cheater

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 10:36 AM

That chassis is a Parma BrassKar, circa early to mid-'80s.
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#3 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 10:46 AM

Hi Greg,
 
Thanks for the info. It seems like a really nice chassis, especially for a relatively inexpensive off-the-shelf item. The one I have here is also nice and flat (especially after reflowing some of the joints on my glass worktable while applying some pressure).  

I have no doubt they ran pretty well. Something like this with a zippy motor and some body air-control would probably be lots of fun!
 
-john
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#4 Jairus

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 11:31 AM

Thanks, Greg, I was going to say that.  

 

I have one that still sports the motor, wheels, and body in unrestored condition. Not sure what to do with it...


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#5 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 11:38 AM

Not sure what to do with it.....

 
 Run it!   :D
 
-john


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#6 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 11:40 AM

... so, no other information on the arm? Wattsa "27" and does anyone know who Clyde is?

 

-john


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Posted 04 December 2016 - 11:47 AM

John,

 

Here's a nice overview from the Professor Motor website. He cites John Ford's Slot Car Dictionary at Scale Auto Racing News as the original source. Of course, some of the info is a little dated, especially when referencing "today."

 

Gp12 - Originally named for its cost. A Gp12 had to cost under $12.00 ready to run out of the box. Today it is a stamped mass production chassis with Group 12 motors.  This class has been around since the early '70s.

Gp15 - Originally named for its cost. A Gp15 had to cost under $15.00 ready to run out of the box. The original concept of this box stock class is no longer around in USRA racing. It has melded into a new class of car that remotely resembles its predecessor. The only thing that remains the same is the armature which still retains 50 (edit) wraps of 29 gauge wire. More or less. Remember boys and girls, every car is legal until it is proven illegal.

Gp20 - Originally name for its cost. A Gp20 had to cost under $20.00 ready to run out of the box. An almost non-existent class today. It never was very popular. In its beginning stages, the lack of popularity was because of the rigid rules placed on the chassis. A car with the speed of a Group 20 was held back in its progress by a chassis barely suitable for Group 12 racing. In Texas, Jim Honeycutt is credited with solving the problem by forming a local class using Group 20 motors and Group 7 chassis. See Gp27.

Gp22 - In the early '70s the Group 20 motor was popular due to its high speed and low cost. There was quite a movement to take this motor and make it more efficient. Hand wound versions of the Gp20 armature were made by Thorp and Steube from California. To tell them apart, they had tags marked 22, merely a number to show it was a hand wound 20. If you come across any of these 22 tagged arms today, they are quite rare. Hang on to it.

G27 - The hand wound Group 22 arms were becoming quite popular, and in Texas especially in the local Group 20/7 hybrid class originated by Jim Honeycutt of San Antonio. The popularity of this hybrid class grew to the point that it actually became a class, and the hand wound group 20 arms began to carry the tag 27.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#8 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 11:55 AM

Thanks again, Greg!  

 

So the arm is basically a 38t/27 hand wound and (at least in this case) on a quite small finished-diameter blank, dating from somewhere in the 1970s forward. Kool beans!  

 

That only leaves the "Clyde" part, but I'm sure that would be a really tough nut to crack.

 

-john


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#9 Taylor Davis

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 12:02 PM

Hey John,
 
Clyde is who I received the arm from. I bought all his 27 stuff, and that was one of the set-ups. It was old and I had no use for it, but I know you can enjoy it.
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#10 Samiam

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 12:51 PM

Before sending arms out for refurb one would mark them. This way you know you are getting back your own stuff. That was hard if not impossible with sealed Puppy Dogs though. :rolleyes:


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#11 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 12:52 PM

Hi Taylor...

 

Ta-da.. .mystery solved! Thanks for chiming in!

 

-john


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#12 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 12:57 PM

Before sending arms out for refurb one would mark them

 
Makes sense, Sam. Judging by the height of the shoulder, the comm had already been cut at least once, and was showing some more wear (as evidenced in the pictures above. So no doubt this one had been "run in anger" and sent out to be freshened up.

Nice also to know more about G20 and how it evolved. Still an excellent wind, although an "orphan."
 
-john


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#13 B.C.

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 01:06 PM

We ran C-can 27s in Brasskars in the mid-'80s. Was a very good frame for the money. 

 

The class allowed any tagged arm in a C-can – 12/15/20/27.

 

I believe though that the description above is in error on Group 15 – the arm was 50t of 29.


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#14 old & gray

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 01:55 PM

Gp22 - In the early '70s the Group 20 motor was popular due to its high speed and low cost. There was quite a movement to take this motor and make it more efficient. Hand wound versions of the Gp20 armature were made by Thorp and Steube from California. To tell them apart, they had tags marked 22, merely a number to show it was a hand wound 20. If you come across any of these 22 tagged arms today, they are quite rare. Hang on to it.

 

These arms were also made by Camen. When there were some Group races in the late 1990s no one would let it play.


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#15 John Streisguth

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 02:27 PM

I raced Group 27 at Nutley just before it closed, and then a bit at Holiday Raceway in Berwyn in 1973. That was the last I touched a slot car until 1990.

At that point I started racing the Keystone USRA series when it was in the eastern part of the state. One of the classes I raced was Outlaw 12, which was a production Mura X12 arm is the typical C-can of the day. The BrassKar chassis was allowed, but it was much heavier than the flexi car chassis that was also allowed, and I could never get my motors to live when I tried running it, so I stuck with the flexi.
 
I sold my BrassKar chassis a couple years ago, but I still have all my Group 27 stuff from 1971-73.
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#16 MSwiss

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 02:45 PM

The arm looks like a pretty standard, pre-S comm, model, probably from the late '80s, into the early '90s.
 
As pointed out, individual's never signed products at Koford.
 
I remember a Clyde from the Colorado area.
 
I've mentioned before that brass square upstops on BrassKar is what inspired me to come up with the floating pin tubes that spanned across the width of the chassis on early lightweight perimeter cars.

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#17 Cheater

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 03:02 PM

I guessed who Clyde was and Taylor confirmed it. Clyde is a member here, so I PM'd him and he replied:

"Yeah, that's my arm... anyway Koford put my name on it when he did the arm."


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#18 Jairus

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 04:50 PM

Not trying to steal your thread John.  But had to run to storage to pick up some Christmas Lights for my son and daughter-in-law's house.  They moved in during the summer and have no outdoor lights so....
At any rate, I grabbed the Brasscar and thought you might like to see what an RTR looked like.  This one is an unmolested eBay find that I glued and trued a set of fresh rubber to the stock wheels and ran the heck out of it for a summer just for fun.

Of course that was 8 years ago so... now the rubber is dry again. 

If you want some bits to restore the chassis you have there, I have a set of those rear wheels you can have.
 

IMG_3820proof-vi.jpg

 

 


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#19 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 06:39 PM

Hi Jairus,

 

Cool picture, and that old Mura looks right at home in there! Doing some figuring and playing with cans, it looks like a C motor would sit pretty well below the axle plane if the motor was set flush to the bottom of the chassis with no modifications. Of course, the axle bushing holes could be made into "ovals" to lower them, and then just cut off the extra unneeded height of the bracket to "trim some fat," but I'm pretty sure the chassis will just stay as-is (beefing up the guide tongue would probably be a good thing as well).  

 

Anyway, I'm good but thanks for the offer!

 

-john


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#20 Jairus

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 07:00 PM

Yeah, the brass is pretty thin.

Didn't post this before but noticed the soldering job of mounting that motor:

IMG_3821proof-vi.jpg
 
That's just solder.  

Would break in a second if hit, rending the teeth of the ring gear into track dust.
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#21 havlicek

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 07:41 PM

... rending the teeth of the ring gear into track dust.

 

  :)
 
-john


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#22 Cheater

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 08:35 PM

"Yeah, that's my arm... anyway Koford put my name on it when he did the arm."


Clyde rang me up tonght with some other news and we had a nice chat.

If I understood him correctly, his name was engraved on that arm during a subsequent refurb/comm turning.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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