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The Vintage-style Idea


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#1 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 11:47 PM

It is no secret I like vintage slot cars, and especially replicating vintage pro racers from the mid-'60s to the early '70s.

 

Building these cars as period correct replicas however depends heavily on the ability to acquire actual period correct parts. While some period correct parts are always going to be easier to find (and afford) than others, lately even the once more plentiful parts have become harder to find, and their prices have risen considerably.

 

Add to this the reality that some parts just cannot be had at any price because they no longer exist (or never did exist as a product with a part number), and I find there are some vintage replica project cars I’m simply never going to be able to finish. It’s frustrating.

 

But this topic, and indeed this entire subforum is not a complaint about the availability or the prices of actual period correct parts; it’s about having fun building slot cars – and not being frustrated. If I cannot finish my period correct vintage replica car projects, then maybe I should be building period accurate vintage-style cars instead.

 

For those of us who are old enough to remember consider this: In the late '60s, at my local raceway we would build our cars out of what was available; there was no such thing as “period correct vintage parts.” The only reason I could not get a specific part I wanted was because the raceway owner had not received it yet, and all I had to do was wait a week and there it would be.

 

Come Friday or Saturday night, we would race whatever we had, provided it was no more than three inches wide and cleared the track by at least one-sixteenth of an inch.  Obviously, the cars had to be of the same type (sports, coupe or open wheel), but there were no other official rules; didn’t need them.

 

For everyone it was “build-what-you-will” and “run-what-you-brung”, and no one worried about whether they were using period correct parts. Honestly I don’t remember any other time when I had more plain-old fun on a regular basis.

 

We cannot actually go back to that earlier, more innocent time (and personally I would not want to try), but I think it possible to have fun building cars that way. The “catch” (if you choose to call it that) would be that "Vintage-style" cannot be a “free-for-all;” there would have to be some discipline to give the effort a sense of purpose.

 

So, my “Vintage-style” idea involves building cars with:

 

A. Disciplined major technical features that are accurate for the time period being represented and specifically intended to give the car overall vintage appearance and performance. Innovative design solutions are encouraged.

 

B. Other technical features that, out of simple necessity, conform to current practice.

 

C. Construction consisting entirely of commercially-available parts.


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#2 Jairus

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 12:13 AM

Not sure what you are getting at, but following with interest.

:)


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#3 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 01:29 AM

Item 'C' is where I have a problem. In the early 1960s, we invented the parts that later became 'commercial' parts. You fabricated what you needed from what you could find.


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#4 slotcarone

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 06:45 AM

I was there at that time and I like the idea! Obviously there needs to be a spec motor. One of the still available current 16D style should work. :)


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#5 havlicek

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 07:03 AM

I think that, by accident and necessity, I've been on the vintage-style (VS) bandwagon for some time, so I "get" this idea.  Being a tinkerer by nature, I like to open stuff up, see where I might improve things, and if my "improvements" don't exactly pan-out, figure a way to fix my improvements :D  Then again, I think slotters in general share that kind of attitude.  Also, being of a certain (ahem) "vintage" myself, it's understandable why the earlier periods of slot car racing appeal to me so much.  As Steve put it so well, building/rebuilding (in my case...motors) things from that period is fast becoming cost-prohibitive, and sometimes just impossible.  Even something as ordinary as an FT16D end bell in clean/NOS condition has become "unobtainium"...partly because they melted if you just looked at them sideways, but also because they haven't been manufactured for close to 50 years (or something like that).

While I admire the absolutely-period-correct stuff, I never let being so correct necessarily be an obstacle to having fun.  Let's face it, it may be more than a little self-justification, but Larry's comment above is certainly true.  The spirit has always been about using what you could find...as well as what Steve said..."build what you will" and "run what you brung".  Sometimes, I will try my best to ONLY do things using the correct parts and that is very cool.  Other times I'll make things up, sort of the slot car equivalent of musical improvisation, but even then I figure it'a easily all in the spirit of the scratchbuilders.

There's no reason why a certain interest held by one person or group should preclude a different group's interest from being seen as valid.  If you want to have "VS" fun, you ought not let the price of a Champion "Orange Picker" get in your way.  After all, brass sheet, rod, tube and piano wire are still cheap.  I think that proceeding with a "VS" mindset, only increases appreciation for the totally vintage stuff.  When you DO see that lustworthy Champion, Mabuchi or Mura in minty-fresh condition, it's like "oh wow"!  Then again, you can either wait to build something...or half-finish something, or you can just build.

Very cool Steve!

 

-john

 


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#6 Samiam

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 07:39 AM

Like Steve,I have had similar thoughts on this concept.  These are the kind of cars I started out racing BITD. A few thoughts:

 

Angle winder of course.

Two classes. Drop arm and solid nose.

1/8" axle in drop arm. 1/32" in solid nose. 

Solid front axle for drop arm. L-axles for solid nose.

C or D can. No modern ultra light set-ups.

Wasp/Contender in drop arm. Gp20 or Open :shok:  in solid nose.

All chassis rails must be straight and parallel.

Only 90 deg. cuts in pans and chassis parts. Except notch for motor box.

Wire and brass.

Body list from SCRRA Retro Pro class.

 

Just thinking out loud. Sorry for the thread hijack.


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#7 slotcarone

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 07:46 AM

Sam I think Steve is referring to much earlier times when it was run what you brung--in other words your fastest  car in the box!!


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#8 Samiam

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 07:52 AM

I was thinking the solid nose cars would be RWYB. Maybe with some small period korrect aero aids.


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#9 havlicek

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:06 AM

I don't know if Steve is talking about a "race class" or just a building discipline, maybe he can clarify that.  While I think there are probably some folks scattered around who would like to race these things (*after all, there have been fairly successful thingie proxies), I don;t know if there are enough in any one place or at any one track for that sort of thing.  Personally, I have enough fun just building the stuff and don't think that many of my motors are used for racing, outside of the vintage racing done in Europe.

Anyway, using easily-available and affordable parts as analogs for the old stuff that has become too expensive and difficult to get for *whatever* reason seems like a very good idea!

 

-john


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#10 John Streisguth

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:10 AM

Sounds like jail door-era with motors that are a least a little more "period correct".  :)

 

Or maybe any era, as long as it's in the spirit of what was done "in the day"?  


"Whatever..."

#11 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:20 AM

This is all on the line of retro.

 

Just like old times in slot cars (I want to make up rules the way I want them)

 

I would love to see the retro angle winder class take off, and we can talk about and build anything we want but support retro as we have it.

There are some rules in retro I would change but all in all retro is doing well so I will play as it is.

 

I am not putting down Steve's ideas I am just saying in large part what he purposed is what we have now in retro. 


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#12 havlicek

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:36 AM

Not being a retro racer, or a racer of any kind, I don't think this is at all overlapping, much less the same as retro Eddie.  For one, retro is very tightly controlled, and I see lots of times when some would have the sanctioning bodies install more rules.  That in itself is very different from a "run what you brung" type of thing.  Retro itself obviously works for a lot of people.  Then too, eurosport is really popular (I guess more so outside the US?), and then there are various open type classes.  Steve is well aware of all this, and I doubt he sees this as a "sort of retro" thing.  Then again, I still don't know if he's talking about a racing class or a building discipline, so all this talk about rules for racing may be...how do they say..."jumping the shark".

 

-john


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#13 Mattb

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 08:55 AM

Fun building and simple enough for everybody, our little small group strives for that. We go back to 64/65 for our approach. Solid platform frames, no hinges, a solid pan or brass rod. No drop arm. Inline motor (we use a small motor similiar to the H&R motors. 1 inch rear tires, silicone, no glue, no smaller than 3/4 inch fronts. Hard bodies for whatever class we are running, hot rod coupes, no fenders, trans am sedans, 60's indy roadsters. This is about the simplest car to build and is what all ran back in the early days.

Basic rules for the build only have to cover those basic areas.
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#14 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 09:24 AM

For the most part I agree with you John. On the other hand if you look at Steve's guide lines A B & C that looks very much like retro. As I said we can talk about and build anything we want. I raced run what you brung back in the 60"s and loved it. You know what I still love it, but these days RWYB gets far out of hand very quick, so we add rules. Now if we are talking about building like we did back in the day for fun I am all for it. If we are going to race them I think it turns into retro or some variation of retro very quick.


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#15 slotcarone

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 09:51 AM

Anyone who competed in our current IRRA jail door class races will tell you about how much fun it is. We do have rules though!
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#16 don.siegel

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:20 AM

Basically, as soon as you have races, you will have people bending rules, holding endless discussions, taking out their switchblades, etc. 

 

I believe that Steve is talking more about a state of mind, and it's what a lot of us already do: drop arms really don't help these days, but when I do a 60s style build, it's gotta have a droparm! 

 

By the way, if you switch from can motors to open-frames, you immediately lower your costs by a substantial amount - lots of those still around, cheap! And, as people mentioned earlier, if you're not looking for Champion 525s and Cukras Muras, there are lots of affordable can motors around, well some... but not a lot of good endbells, that's true! 

 

Don 



#17 TSR

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:31 AM

There are three "classes" of vintage replicas that could be defined quite easily and provide fun for everyone.

- Inline cars, 1963 through 1968, with motors being strictly Mabuchi-based, FT16 or FT26 models. Such motor parts are abundant as millions were sold in the day and thousands have survived, in new or used condition. 1/8" axles only, as 3/32" were a few years ahead. Wheels, tires, gears are also abundant. Armatures to use Mabuchi-based or Hemi blanks, again, all over the place. Bodies to be of correct, pre-1968 styles, since the 1968 cars had not been modeled yet by vacuum-forming manufacturers. Cox or similar guides as the Jet Flag had yet to exist.

- Anglewinders, 1968 through 1972, meaning cars with two solid axles. Motors: anything from modified Mabuchi FT16 to Champion 517 to 535 chrome or black cans, Champion C-can based, Mura "16D" and C-can motor parts, 1/8" or 3/32" axles, Jet Flag or similar, realistic bodies without built-in air control. Drop arms mandatory since no one was making chassis without one.

- Anglewinders, 1973 to 1978, pre-cobalt motors, meaning Champion or Mura C-can based, no perimeter frames, solid center sections with side pans, front axle optional, no wing-car bodies, semi-scale only.

Anything after that can hardly be called "vintage," may be "old and obsolete"...

These are suggestions, but as an old fart having used all three types, I can see a clear difference between the three, and believe that this would provide lots of fun and relatively even classes if racing was involved.
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#18 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:36 AM

Don,

You are probably correct. I suspect Steve is talking more about a state of mind.

In my case I am a builder/racer and as a racer my first thought on guidelines/rules is from the racer standpoint.
My view is if you are not racing, why have rules?
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#19 Lone Wolf

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:49 AM

Steve, I must admit I have very little knowledge of things after 1967. I never actually raced on a commercial track back in the day. Missed the age window by a couple years and I was really into HO.
 
My question is this, what parts are you generally referring to? Do you have pics of some of the more hard to get pieces? Just wondering, don't go crazy if you don't have the time.

Joe Lupo


#20 dc-65x

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:06 AM

    :popcorm1:


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#21 Detroit Dave

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:06 AM

I am excited about the possibility of Vintage-style instead of trying to stay with just the vintage parts.  

I always feel a bit like I am cheating if I build something and it doesn't use '60s bits. My fun is in the building and my love is for the vintage look.  

Interested in seeing where this goes.
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#22 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:32 AM

This just sounds like Retro to me.

 

What exactly is different?

 

Slightly looser chassis rules?

 

And the the term "commercially available" is really up to interpretation.

 

IMO, you would have a real big, complicated rule book, or the most hated tech director on the planet. LOL


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#23 dc-65x

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 12:10 PM

I am excited about the possibility of Vintage Style instead of trying to stay with just the vintage parts.  I always feel a bit like I am cheating if I build something and it doesn't use 60's bits.  My fun is in the building and my love is for the vintage look.  Interested in seeing where this goes.

 
I believe Dave "gets it"...  :)


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#24 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 12:26 PM

I get it, also.

 

I don't get how you tech the "vintage look" when you state "Innovative design solutions are encouraged."

 

This sounds like a great idea if there were eight-dozen retired guys, hanging out at the track three days a week, building, and they could run their "innovative designs" by the track owner or tech director.

 

All you need is someone putting six hours into a chassis, and be told it can't run, to kill the class.

 

This sounds like it could possibly work if all items that could be used were determined to be in ample supply and were on a list.

 

Sort of a much expanded version of my Kurtis Indy car proxy race.


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#25 Jairus

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 12:48 PM

Steve posted last night and now after a bunch of discussion and no clarification from him... I still do not know what his original intent is.
But the wildly ranging responses suggest that I was correct in my first post.

That it's a presence of mind that confines us to build what we choose to build.
 

Consider the many Thingie proxy races held from 2005 to 2012. I would build a vintage style era correct entry while Sir Steve Kempson would build a more modern entry. I like the "vintage-style" and he likes the more current-style. Neither was better because sometimes I would do better and sometimes he would do better.

It is a frame of mind more than anything else.

And I get it now.  

 

Bravo, Steve! 
 


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#26 JimF

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 01:44 PM

I think I can "get" was Steve was thinking about. I considered something vaguely similar for NorCal Retro a few years back. I thought about keeping the current chassis rules as spec'd by most organizations but elimination some of the SCM (tech term...  :D) provisions. At the time it seemed that possibly a slower (spec) motor like a Mini Brute, a lower downforce body (Ferrari 612, McLaren Mk 6, etc.) and no add-on spoliers, would be a fun way to go.

 

This would be a fun class for a lot of venues including club situations.


Jim Fowler

#27 Noose

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 01:53 PM

The Jail Door classes were fun as Mike Katz said. The rules were based on the old R&C rule sets and Tony and I wrote them. Kept things simple. The sports cars were fun and the GP cars were a handful. LOL. 

 

Here are the rules if anyone is interested. I have a lot of the JD GP bodies if anyone is interested in them, too.

 

Simple to tech, too.

 

Attached File  R&CJDSportsCarsRules2010-Rev-1FINAL.pdf   754.45KB   14 downloads

 

Attached File  R&CJailDoorGrandPrixRules2010Rev-1-Final.pdf   467.86KB   12 downloads


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#28 Half Fast

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:01 PM

I wanna do what I wanna do, when everyone wants to do something different, is not a reasonable basis for a racing class.

 

Cheers,


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#29 Jairus

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:28 PM

Steve never posted that he was suggesting a "racing class."
 


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#30 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:53 PM

A "display class?"

If it isn't some sort of competition, with more than one guy doing it, it shouldn't need an A, B, C proviso.
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Mike Swiss
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#31 slotbaker

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 04:51 PM

A fun building class...

 

:huh:


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#32 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 04:56 PM

Like I said, I didn't realize you need rules to build what you want to build.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - lol)

 

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17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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#33 gc4895

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 05:04 PM

Let's forget the 1/16 inch all around clearance idea. That was artificially imposed by track owners thinking they were protecting their investment. Experience has shown this isn't necessary. And it degrades the on-track performance of the toy cars for no reason.

 

Basically all that is desired can be found in current Retro racing as far as I can tell.


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#34 hiline2

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 09:52 PM

This vintage enuff?

 

IMG_4572.JPG

 

IMG_4569.JPG

 


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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:15 PM

Cool.

 

Those candy-colored Du-Bro bodies were a staple at my local raceway, B & C Hobby Shop.

 

How big is that spur?


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - lol)

 

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Westmont, IL 60559
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#36 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:37 AM

Wow!  Lots of responses, and from all over the map.

 

I can't answer everyone individually, so I'll answer a few and respond in general to the rest.

 

First, Ramcatlarry wrote: "Item 'C' is where I have a problem. In the early 1960s, we invented the parts that later became 'commercial' parts. You fabricated what you needed from what you could find."

 

I've been having problems with "Item C" also; it's a very slippery topic.  One of the most important pieces of this Vintage-style idea is that the cars are built and maintained with parts anyone can get right now from almost any retailer.  No nearly impossible to get, fragile, irreplaceable, stoopid expensive vintage parts at all.  Vintage parts, and especially rare and expensive vintage parts should, and rightly so, be reserved for serious building projects replicating the history of our hobby - not just banging around the track for the fun of it.

 

However I DO NOT mean to imply that every single part in the entire car MUST be purchased from a retailer (and thank you for pointing that out!)  You purchase whatever parts you need or want from the retailer of your choice, and fabricate whatever other parts you want (the most obvious example would be parts for the chassis) to build your car.  Just like when we were doing this for real back in the late sixties, the goal is (as John Havlicek puts it) to "tinker together" a functional car and have fun doing it.   I still fabricate what I need from what I can find all the time - have you ever seen my Popsicle stick wing car?

 

Mike Swiss has been quite vocal with his ideas, opinions and questions, so I'll try to respond in a "lightning round" style:

 

"This just sounds like Retro to me."

 

Okay, it sounds like Retro to you (and others), but it is emphatically not.  No car I build in vintage-style would ever pass tech in a Retro race.  Cars built to look and perform like vintage racers, whether they are replicas or just vintage-style are not Retro racers, and Retro Racers are not vintage anything.  Vintage and Retro are different animals.  The Retro guys have nothing to be the slightest bit concerned about from me.

 

"What exactly is different?"

 

Retro builds to rules, whereas I (and anyone else who is interested) will be building to knowledge and discipline, in order to achieve a specific historically accurate appearance and performance.

 

Slightly looser chassis rules?

 

No rules; knowledge and discipline.

 

"And the the term "commercially available" is really up to interpretation."

 

And I think you are engaging in obfuscation.  Here is my "interpretation": You buy slot car parts from a slot car retailer, you buy materials and supplies from McMaster-Carr or Amazon or your local hobby shop.  You buy whatever you need to build your car from people who are in business to sell retail products to the public.

 

"IMO, you would have a real big, complicated rule book, or the most hated tech director on the planet. LOL"

 

No rule book, no tech director, no bickering, no dickering, no hassles.  If you want to organize a racing series for these things and deal with the headaches, go ahead. I never said anything about organized racing.

 

"I don't get how you tech the "vintage look" when you state "Innovative design solutions are encouraged."

 

It's easy; there is no tech.  Regarding the "vintage look", anyone who cannot tell the difference between a vintage 1968 Steube or Emott chassis and a modern chassis has no business doing this and need not apply.  And as I recall, pro builders in the late sixties and early seventies came up with clever and innovative design solutions with notable regularity, and virtually all of them passed tech.  Building a vintage-style 1967 Jaildoor inline would properly require the D-can motor to be mounted in an endbell drive configuration.  To accomplish this with a vintage-style motor based on a Parma Deathstar or Rotor setup would require an innovative design solution, right?

 

"This sounds like a great idea if there was a eight-dozen retired guys, hanging out at the track 3 days a week, building, and they could run their "innovative designs" by the track owner or tech director."

 

This sounds like you have something against retired guys having fun doing what they like.  Retired guys are notorious for not giving a hoot what anybody thinks.  But at least you concede that it could be a great idea.  There's hope yet.

 

"All you need is someone putting 6 hours into a chassis, and be told it can't run, to kill the class."

 

It's not a "class", so there's nothing to kill.  These are just runners built to resemble vintage racers.

 

"This sounds like it could possibly work if all items that could be used were determined to be in ample supply and were on a list."

 

This sounds like you are taking something simple and arbitrarily making it into something impossibly difficult.  My goal is to take something impossibly difficult and make it into something simple, so that more people can participate and enjoy.  One of us is going the wrong way.

 

"Sort of a much expanded version of my Kurtis Indy car proxy race."

 

If you say so... Except that Vintage-style cars are not intended to be racers.

 

"A "display class?"

 

It's not a "class" at all, it's a style.  There's nothing to categorize, classify, regulate, control, manipulate, determine or list.  Just accomplished hobbyists enjoying the part of the hobby that they happen to like best.  Not everyone is a racer.

"If it isn't some sort of competition, with more than one guy doing it, it shouldn't need an A, B, C proviso."

 

Well, what then should it need?  Do you know of another way to share an idea, without describing how it is supposed to work, or what its boundaries are?  And if some of the other respondents to this post are to be believed, there is quite a few more than one person doing this sort of thing already; something to give us a common purpose and goal is quite appropriate.

 

"Like I said, I didn't realize you need rules to build what you want to build."

 

I don't.  You are confusing rules with knowledge and discipline.  If I wanted to make it possible for a group of people to build cars that all have similar if not identical performance, so that they could be raced together, I would apply rules.  If I instead wanted to build one vintage-style car that looks and performs like an October 1968 Pro racer with a Bob Emott chassis, a Kean Kan motor and a Dave Bloom body, I would apply knowledge and discipline; rules would be of little use.

 

One more detail to consider; vintage pro cars clear up through 1969 had motors upon which there were no restrictions imposed.  My vintage-style builds will conform to this historical fact.  As a result, there will not be a sealed spec motor anywhere in sight.  Just like Retro?  I don't think so.


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#37 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:49 AM

See...I didn't think this was about some newfangled racing class.  Then too, if guys that enjoyed building these things wanted to get together and run them fer giggles, that would be cool too.  Never having been a racer, I do recall many times when we were all running our cars and one guy would come up to you...follow along and then try and coax you into a sort of "impromptu race".  It was sort of the slot car equivalent of "running stoplights".  Of course, we would also just line up and someone would give us a "ready...set...go!", for a few laps of deslotting and wall-shots   :), so anybody anywhere *could* race something like these.

So the point is to build cars that have the look, engineering and where necessary, modern easily-available parts so the craft can be enjoyed without the extra cost and frustration.  Cool, I'm looking forward to seeing a whole raft of Sandy Gross "Puzzle Pan" chassis, in both long and short wheelbase versions!   :D

 

-john


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#38 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:02 AM

I should also add that Phillipe's post #17 above is a perfect and concise statement about the major "phases" of vintage slot car development:
 

- Inline cars, 1963 through 1968, with motors being strictly Mabuchi-based, FT16 or FT26 models. Such motor parts are abundant as millions were sold in the day and thousands have survived, in new or used condition. 1/8 axles only, as 3/32 were a few years ahead. Wheelstires, gears are also abundant. Armatures to use Mabuchi-based or Hemi blanks, again, all over the place. Bodies to be of correct, pre-1968 styles, since the 1968 cars had not been modeled yet by vacuum forming manufacturers. Cox or similar guides as the Jet Flag had yet to exist.

- Anglewinders, 1968 through 1972, meaning cars with two solid axles. Motors:anything from modified Mabuchi FT16 to Champion 517 to 535 chrome or black cans, Champion C-can based, Mura "16D" and C-can motor parts, 1/8 or 3/32 axles, Jet Flag or similar, realistic bodies without built-in air control. Drop arms mandatory since no one was making chassis without one.

- Anglewinders, 1973 to 1978, pre-cobalt motors, meaning Champion or Mura C-can based, no perimeter frames, solid center sections with side pans, front axle optional, no wing-car bodies, semi-scale only.

 
I'm sure Philippe has long since forgotten way more about all this (*including rewinding) than I'll ever know, but I would argue one point:
 

Such motor parts are abundant as millions were sold in the day and thousands have survived, in new or used condition.

 
Finding clean used, much less new Mabuchi (or the black Tradeship ones) FT16D endbells for a decent price has become extremely difficult. You can luck out on eBay once in a while and get some junk motors with serviceable endbells that can be cleaned-up a little and repurposed, but even that's pretty rare. Even then, the endbell bushings are often worn and those are all-but-irreplaceable as a single item.  This too only underscores at least part of the reasoning behind a "vintage-style" build discipline, because modern D motors are still abundant and relatively inexpensive.  Then again, building a "VS" car as endbell-drive with a modern D motor will itself present some minor challenges to a scratchbuilder. However, I'm sure an "Independant Scratchbuilder"  ( :D ) wouldn't have much difficulty getting past that, just as the creative scratchbuilders worked out all sorts of solutions back in the day.
 
-john


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#39 Bill from NH

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:20 AM

It's "Run What You Brung" cars! I last ran these type of cars in 1967 and '68. :)


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If a chicken coop has 4 doors, does that make it a sedan?


#40 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:29 AM

... as long as everyone "brings" similar cars!
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#41 Bill from NH

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:34 AM

Yes, they must be vintage. Similarity ends there.


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Bill Fernald

If a chicken coop has 4 doors, does that make it a sedan?


#42 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:41 AM

Bingo! In say 1968, no one had to worry about someone bringing a #25 in a cobalt strap motor riding under wing body held up by a wire chassis with no front wheels.   :)
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#43 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:58 AM

Yes, bingo!

And that is why there is Retro racing.
 
like I said some ways back up the page, just for fun and old time sake build away with any style and parts you want. From time to time when I have time I will build along this line, too.
 
Enjoy.
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#44 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 10:09 AM

Post #36

Do what you want to do, but do it with knowledge and discipline.

IOW, "Have fun, but do it my way."


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - lol)

 

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Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#45 Jairus

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 11:09 AM

It would be a real gas if Pro Slot were to issue a "Cukras" style custom-painted S16D motor huh?  :victory:

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#46 Mattb

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 01:35 PM

What is the purpose of this whole thread? Not a class, not a show, no rules, just build what you want, run what you want. Do it and be done with it. If it's not a class, not an organized race, what difference does it make what kind of car I put on another lane.

I still don't get the point of this thread.
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#47 Half Fast

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 01:55 PM

Amen.
 
Was there anyone stopping you from building whatever you wanted before?
 
Cheers.
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#48 don.siegel

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:06 PM

Guys, 

 

The point is to give us food for thought and a starting point for discussions - which is really the point of most forums. 

 

Don 



#49 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:12 PM

And we have been discussing. If we all saw it the same way what would we discuss?


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#50 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:20 PM

Food for thought for what?

What's the end game?

To quote Steve:

"It's not a "class" at all, it's a style. There's nothing to categorize, classify, regulate, control, manipulate, determine or list."

If it's not a class, what's the point of stating you have to use commercial parts?

IOW, there is nothing to regulate, but I'm going to regulate you by making you use commercial parts.

I'm really sorry, but this thread is just Steve posting a bunch of obtuse contradictions.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - lol)

 

Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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