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The Mabuchi conundrum


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 08:12 AM

Sooo, by now everyone is painfully aware of both the limitations and the temptations of the good old Mabuchi FT16D.  The limitations include (*but there are others) awful end bell material, awful end bell hardware and bushing, awful can bushing in an awful bushing carrier, awful magnets, awful tolerances, awful brush springs, awful end bell fixing (tabs).  That's a lot of "awful" in one motor!  Still, the motors could be made to run faster...for a while, and their lifespan, which wasn't all that great "stock" got shorter the faster they were made to go.  Racers made them go faster, but then they had to hope they would at least last for a race...or even a heat.  No biggie for them, the team guys could get as many motors as they needed, and blowing up a bunch was just part of racing.  ***So the motors were slow, and you wanted to make them go faster, but making them go faster only underscored just how awful they were.  

Fast forward to today, and nothing has changed.  It's easy to drop a #25 wire arm in an FT16D, but even with all the typical upgrades, you might get a hot lap or two out of the motor...maybe.  Looking back at these things, there were a lot of pretty hot single and double wind arms routinely put into these things...a 28/29 double wind is (given the rest of the motor) ridiculous, but people did stuff like this.  Sooo, what to do TODAY when building-up a Mabuchi?  Do you make a blistering hot motor that you know in good conscience is doomed before it ever gets installed?  Do you do a 55/29  or maybe tempt fate a little and go with a 45/28?  Do you only do a 70/30 for a nice/quick motor that will last reasonably well?

This all brings me to this motor.  The one I have here is a plated oval hole Mabuchi.  While it may look a little like a Champion, this one is of the thinner Mabuchi metal, unlike the chrone Champions with that heavy metal that no one with anything less than a ball peen hammer and drift pins could even think about bending the tabs on...even though it still had tabs.  The bushing carrier is aluminum, but still of the same shape and size as the Mabuchi brass ones, unlike the larger weird Champion ones.  I drilled the end bell for cooling holes, and opened up the side holes for better "breathing", but it's a regular Mabuchi, not a Champion cycolac (or whatever that stuff is) end bell, and has the small Mabuchi bushing.  Of course, there's a crack in the end bell material at the bushing as most all (even many NOS) examples have today.  For magnets, I installed a set of those with their shim from what I believe were originally in a DynaRewind that are close to "Arco" strength, and I also think that there were Dynas that used the same can type...so there's at least some reasoning behind what's going on here ;)  I also installed a set of bulletproofing plates under the brush tubes/"heatsinks" (*as they were euphemistically called), and modified the end bell to accept them.  Of course, it also got a set of spring post sleeves, and I drilled the can for fixing-screws.  I also clearanced the inside of the end bell a bit to be sure there were no issues with using a larger diameter com.

So, if YOU were building this motor, how hot would you go?  Keep it "sane", or go with "stoopid fast", with all the problems that involves as far as longevity?

IMG_1904_zps6h5jl26r.jpg

 

-john


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#2 Kim Lander

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 08:26 AM

Just my opinion, but I think  a 45/28 wind would be the fun wind.......Kim


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#3 havlicek

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 08:51 AM

Hi Kim,

 

     Yep, that would still be "right on the edge".  Certainly it would be fast, but not too crazy I guess! 

 

-john


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#4 Steve Deiters

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 09:45 AM

 A wind from the era-32 single.  Moderate timing even by todays standards.  Should run cool enough to preclude a melt down with those era specific parts. i.e. end bell yet hot enough to get you where you are and quicker....much quicker...than stock.  I wound a couple that way back in the day.  They screamed.


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#5 havlicek

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 10:11 AM

Hi Steve,

 

     I don't even own any #32 wire, and never have!  The lightest gauge wire I own is #31, and certainly a #31 wind can go pretty quick.  Still, with the bulletproofing and much better magnets, *even* a #30 would run cool enough and much faster than stock.  I don't even think a #29 would be pushing things too much, but I definitely get what you're saying...and THAT is right where the conundrum is!

 

-john


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#6 Samiam

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 10:13 AM

If it was going in one of my vintage runners I would do a 65t #30. Plenty fast and won't melt down with today's track power.


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Sam Levitch
 
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Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#7 SlotStox#53

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:02 AM

Either of the typical winds back in the day, 65 #30 or 55 #29 straight out of the Rod N Custom race reports :D
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#8 Steve Deiters

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:03 AM

#31 is good.  The thickest I recall from the home winder era in my part of the slot racing world was #28.  Too hot to handle and pushing the controllers of the era to their limits and beyond.  It was assumed that you were crazed if you wound with this wire!  LOL


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#9 havlicek

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:37 AM

If it was going in one of my vintage runners I would do a 65t #30. Plenty fast and won't melt down with today's track power.

 

Hi Sam,

 

     Yep, 65/30 DOES make for a fast n' fun motor, and one that will hold up.

 

 

 

Either of the typical winds back in the day, 65 #30 or 55 #29 straight out of the Rod N Custom race reports

 

     True, and both are still around in various forms today.

 

 

 

#31 is good.  The thickest I recall from the home winder era in my part of the slot racing world was #28.  Too hot to handle and pushing the controllers of the era to their limits and beyond.  It was assumed that you were crazed if you wound with this wire!  LOL

   Yeah Steve.  I've done 80-85/31 and they make for very nice smooth and downright civilized motors.  Number 28 wire, while not at all being the hottest wind I've seen in Mabuchis from the period IS getting kind of kookie!  :D

 

-john
 


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#10 boxerdog

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:45 AM

Super 16d 60t28 only because I am greedy.


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#11 Pablo

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:52 AM

My experience building cars with H motors is I've never wished for more power when I test them.

Based on that, I'd say 30 wire. I won't guess on turns because you are there and can see your custom stacks - I can't.

 

Timing, I'd say standard H timing - at or about even with the neighboring lam edge. Always seems to work. Never had a single H motor run hot.

 

Cracked EB bushing flanges - if the motor bracket fits over it fairly snug, it ain't goin' anywhere :)


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#12 havlicek

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 12:05 PM

Super 16d 60t28 only because I am greedy.

 

 

:)...me too Dave!

 

 

 

Based on that, I'd say 30 wire

 

 

You know what Pablo?   #30 and #29 are both my favorites in these motors.

 

-john


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#13 Samiam

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 03:43 PM

The D-3 Jail Door class is about as close to an actual vintage race car of all the Retro stuff we race. The spec on that motor is 82t of #31 on a .375" stack & .513" dia. And it is plenty fast. Of course the small motor package helps a bunch.

 

Any chance someone will start 3-D printing some heat resistant endbells for our vintage toys?


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#14 havlicek

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 08:10 PM

 

 

Any chance someone will start 3-D printing some heat resistant endbells for our vintage toys?

 

Not likely since most (all?) of the materials used in home-type 3D printing are about as heat tolerant as the original Mabuchi end bell material...like not very.

Anyway, I went with the tried and true 65/30 for the arm.  Fast, reliable and cool running.  With the extra protection this motor got, a 55/29 would most likely be fine, but 65/30 works super well in the very light inlines.

IMG_1911_zpsexrgn6wm.jpgIMG_1910_zpsg3p52ogk.jpgIMG_1909_zpstifhpya9.jpg

 

-john


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