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#1 Jairus

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 03:14 PM

You heard of the English invasion of Rock & Roll during the early 1960s. Well, how about the American invasion of 1969?
 
The British slot car racing hobby petty much existed in a bubble due to the great distance from America. The same can be said for the West coast vs the East coast of the US which were likewise separated by vast distance. Some technology was of course shared by travelers, racing teams, and the various publications on both sides of the pond, but details of the cars construction remained pretty much jurisdictionally related.
For instance, the West coast completely ignored the sidewinder, but East coast racers dabbled with it while British racers did marvelous things to the motors and chassis to create some of the best sidewinders ever raced!  
 
At any rate a young Bob Emott, who was already a successful East coast racer by 1969, flew himself over to North London U.K. in order to compete at the Tottenham Open. Not only did he race that September, but he won the day! This made a huge impression on British racers and a whole write-up of the race can be read in the pages of November 1969 “Model Cars” magazine. Model Cars was a British publication during that era and back issues are still available on eBay. Each one packed with ideas, great period advertising, and great tech ideas still viable today.
 
mc1.jpg

But it was the following December issue that shows Bob building another chassis similar to the Tottenham car with photos and drawings that inspired me years ago to build one of these cars.
 
Actually, I believe I have built more than a few based on his design… but this split pan steel (BEE) center section car is the best one I’ve done so far.

mc2.jpg
 
Before I go further, I suggest you, dear reader, click the link and see the post of the car I am replicating. It was constructed by Bob sometime in early 1970 or so utilizing a new steel center section instead of the wire frame center he used at Tottenham but the chassis is based heavily on the architecture of that winning car... so that is why I mention it.

The original car became a part of the Russell Sheldon collection eventually. Russell sent in a few pictures to the Scratchbuilt.com site about 2004 and that is where I first saw it and began collecting parts to build one for myself about 10 years ago!   :rolleyes:
 
After contacting Russell in October of 2016 about some details, he informed me that the car now resides in the LASCM. I posed the same questions to Philippe, who didn’t know exactly the answer to my questions but did provide some better photos of the chassis.  
 
At any rate… onward to the stars!
 
http://scratchbuilt....gallery047.html
 
That is that car that I plan to replicate in this thread.
 
Among the bits acquired for this project is the very important Brady/Emott spring steel center section here-to-fore known as a BEE .  Purchased this off eBay long time ago and held onto it hoping to acquire the rest of the bits. Brady and Emott sold these in the early '70s and unfortunately are quite rare these days. 
 
mc3.jpg
 
The second most important part to be found was the motor made up from a Certus can, Mura endbell and, since I didn’t have a “Kean wound arm,”  a Certus 26 single CCW arm would have to do. 
 
The motor has been stored for years in the very box the arm came in and any and all tests on the bench demonstrate smooth power and cool running.  
 
mc4.jpg
 
mc5.jpg
 
The last important bit was finding the RVM front wheels. Those took me years to identify and find a good set. Of course they were covered with the normal white powder found on other magnesium products, so a quick spin with some 000 steel wool worked wonders to clean them up.
Not convinced I’ll paint the inside black like Bob did. Not sure why he did that other than to keep the corrosion in check.  
 
While Russell says both front and rear wheels are Associated, I am not convinced. They look more like RVM in the front and your basic aluminum tube rears which could be Associated, but there are no telescoping rings so… I’ll probably just use a set of generic (probably early Parma or Champion) rears because the wheel flange matches the fronts better. Of course orange donuts will be used.
 
mc6.jpg

Body is a Lola T160, but it’s most likely a M.A.C. instead of the Lancer body Bob mounted (or is that the other way around?).
At any rate, pretty sure the body and interior came from Electric Dreams.

mc7.jpg

Stay tuned.

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#2 tonyp

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 04:33 PM

Cool build. Actually Bob went to the UK as a VIP on a banana boat complements of Bruce Paschal.
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#3 Jairus

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 04:46 PM

Thank you for the clarification, Tony. I would have preferred to sail for a week too rather then being shot through the air breathing other people's germs.

Here is the chassis as it was exactly one month ago.
 
IMG_3842proof-vi.jpg
 
Took a whole Dremel disk to cut the slots... but here we are only yesterday.

IMG_3854proof-vi.jpg
 
Some differences from what Bob did is the motor to axle brace. I suspect Bob used a brass bit that had a rear axle cradle as part of the motor bracket, but the photos do not really show that clearly. I had one years ago but it's long gone now.

So I just went with the normal bent wire.

IMG_3860proof-vi.jpg
 
I also removed the negative pole wire tab and soldered a brass rod as a buss bar that replicates the original.
That was one of the questions I had for Russell and Philippe because the .062" rod tended to get in the way of the brush spring.
So... I simply ground the brass down before soldering it in. Works smoothly and no shorts so... we're good!
 
IMG_3859proof-vi.jpg
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#4 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 04:47 PM

Cool build. Actually Bob went to the UK as a VIP on a banana boat complements of Bruce Paschal.


I was just going to say this T.
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#5 Dallas Racer

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 06:54 PM

Looking awesome (as usual) so far! :good:
 
I thought Mike Steube was one of the earliest builders of the anglewinder, which of course is a west coast guy.

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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:36 PM

Great project.
 
I'm sure it will turn out awesome.
 
The Certus motor is especially cool to me, as with them residing in nearby Munster, that was our hometown hero, Pro motor, and they were the sponsor of the top local racer in the area, Mike Staskie.
 
Like Phil, I'm also confused by the text, I'm guessing, is from the pictured British publication.
 
With Southern California legend, Gene Hustings, getting credit for inspiring the 1/24 Pro crowd to run anglewinders, after being inspired by Chicago area, 1/32 basement legend, Roy Moody, the "West coast completely ignored the sidewinder," seems highly inaccurate, unless they were specifically referring to full sidewinders.
 
Moody's 1967 Anglewinder


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#7 Jairus

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:44 PM

Anglewinder is not a sidewinder, Mike.

Of course I am talking about full sidewinders.  :dash2: 
 


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#8 MSwiss

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:52 PM

I guess Phil and I were confused because this thread is about building an anglewinder.


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#9 Jairus

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:59 PM

Yes, I understand that. But I did use the words "for instance." Did I not?


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#10 MSwiss

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:05 PM

I read Phil's post and wondered what he was talking about.

 

Apologies.

 

Carry on with your awesome build.


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#11 dc-65x

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:37 PM

Hi Jairus,

 

Pros like TonyP would cut out the entire center section... so why didn't you?

 

Just kidding! Super nice job of cutting the slot in the steel frame rails.   :good:  That's something I've never done and hope I never have to! :shok:

 

As one of the few people who actually scratchbuild and share their projects, rather than just complain about others posts, I'd like to thank you for sharing with us and look forward to following your build. :thank_you2:


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#12 Dallas Racer

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 02:13 AM

Sorry for the thread drift, but I'm really confused here.

 

Wouldn't a sidewinder require: larger diameter tires and spur gear, and narrower tires? You can see that Moody used an anglewinder because of the gear size.

 

1/24 scale anglewinders also allow wider and smaller diameter tires. Taking that into consideration, would a sidewinder be better than an inline? I would think because tire limitations it wouldn't be.


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#13 Jairus

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 09:44 AM

Phil, to a point you are correct. The British racers would go through many machinations in order to narrow the motor and place it as close to the rear axle as possible. Some even installed the pinion inside the motor can and/or cut slots into the magnets to provide axle clearance. In nearly all cases, the motor can became a structural part of the chassis. 

I built one of those a few years ago. Here is a link to the story and I did drive that sidewinder and it was quiet and very quick.

Ed Lewis sidewinder
 
There is no real benefit to a full sidewinder other than clean gear mesh. The builders then thought they were getting the max weight over the rear axle for traction. But unfortunately you can't quickly change the motor or adjust the gears.

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#14 old & gray

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 11:31 AM

This thread fired a few old memories. I remember seeing Brady and Emott’s cars at a race in Berwyn, PA (Holiday Raceway?), either in the fall of '69 or winter of '70. A friend and I drove down from CT on Friday and got a motel room (quite the adventure for a couple of high school seniors). After some practice at the track, my friend said he wanted to stop over to see someone at the motel. When the door opened it was Bob and Jerry in full thrash on their cars.
 
The cars were built using the BEE center sections. Jerry's car had the slots cut in the rails like your car, but on Bob’s car had solid rails with short slots for the front axle uprights. Closer examination of Bobs car found the front rails had been surface ground forward of the cross brace to reduce the stiffness. I don't remember if the cars had split pans but the rest of the weekend was a bit of an adventure.
 
The race lasted all day and into the night. After qualification your car sat in impound until your race when it was placed on the track for your two minutes practice. Jerry qualified in the top four so he had a sit-out in the main, and when the power came on for practice we found out someone had put adhesive (probably Loctite) in Jerry’s motor. The race was delayed until Sunday so that the car could be rebuilt, and my friend and I ended up making the drive home without seeing how the main played out.


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#15 tonyp

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 12:05 PM

Those BEE centersections were very short lived. They were super soft and bent really bad in a crash.

 

I know who Loctited Jerry's motor but statue of limitations is over.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#16 Noose

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 12:10 PM

Ed Sohl has reflected that story many times as he was a top four qualifier and has talked about how they had to try to get some sleep.  Bob Emott was put in charge of monitoring Jerry's rebuild of his motor. LOL.

 

Oh and I know too who the culprit was but as Tony said mum is the word. LOL.


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#17 Half Fast

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 12:15 PM

 I know who Loctited Jerry's motor but statue of limitations is over.

 

If the statute of limitations is over, then you are free to say who did it. :)

 

Cheers,

 

PS: The cynic in me, says it was a self-inflicted wound.  :shok:


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#18 tonyp

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 12:55 PM

All I'll say is one word - Zip.
 


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
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#19 old & gray

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 01:19 PM

If the statute of limitations is over, then you are free to say who did it. :)
 
PS: The cynic in me, says it was a self-inflicted wound.  :shok:

 
*Thread drift*

This story was relayed because it involved Bob, Jerry, and their cars. Remember the time frame of this story. Super glue didn’t exist, most racers didn’t have a drawer full of motors, and changing motors between heats was unheard of.
 
My observation is the behavior of racer’s has changed over the intervening years. Allegedly the person responsible walked around showing the empty adhesive container to a number of people. I didn’t see it, I don’t know who did it, and at this point I don’t care. There are usually two sides to every story and some of the people I respect today are the ones I fought with and both of us can look back and say, “Wow, did we waste time and effort over a meaningless (whatever).”
 
From my point of view (in the back of the pack then, in the back of the pack now but with a few more acquaintances); racers share information and equipment more, and have learned results are better if people show courtesy on the track rather than racing everyone “hard."


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#20 Half Fast

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 01:25 PM

From my point of view (in the back of the pack then, in the back of the pack now but with a few more acquaintances); racers share information and equipment more, and have learned results are better if people show courtesy on the track rather than racing everyone “hard.”

 
Agreed, the guys in Retro East (some of which are the same guys from back then) are very agreeable and share info freely. It is a pleasure to race with and talk to them.
 
Cheers.


Bill Botjer

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The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!

 

 

 
 

#21 Dallas Racer

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 02:04 PM

Phil, to a point you are correct. The British racers would go through many machinations in order to narrow the motor and place it as close to the rear axle as possible. Some even installed the pinion inside the motor can and/or cut slots into the magnets to provide axle clearance. In nearly all cases, the motor can became a structural part of the chassis. 

I built one of those a few years ago. Here is a link to the story and I did drive that sidewinder and it was quiet and very quick.

Ed Lewis sidewinder
 
There is no real benefit to a full sidewinder other than clean gear mesh. The builders then thought they were getting the max weight over the rear axle for traction. But unfortunately you can't quickly change the motor or adjust the gears.

 

Jairus,

 

Wow! Thanks. I wasn't aware of that. Interesting. And thanks for the link. Cool build! :good:


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#22 Jairus

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 11:52 PM

Great conversation and memories! Thanks, guys, for sharing and there is no thread drift that I can see.

Well, after working a long day today I came home, heated up the iron and finished the remaining pan and plumber limiters. Chassis is done.  Needs more polishing of course... and then time to hunker down here in the Pacific NW for another winter blow.  
Wheels to be glued and trued, wires to be strung, and that darned guide flag.
 

IMG_3862proof-vi.jpg

 

IMG_3863proof-vi.jpg

 

Too tired to polish it now.
And the tumbler takes over an hour after to clean out the pin tubes so.... who knows.

Happy weekend, everyone!


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#23 Jairus

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 01:55 PM

It's now Saturday morning.

After a full 10 hours in the tumbler the chassis had to be cleaned of all polishing materials.

And it took me over an hour to get that Jet Flag fitted correctly. That darned screw and short guide flag hole makes the fitment troublesome, but that's what Bob Emott used so...

Two cups of French roast coffee got me to this stage and with snow building up outside, I think the only course is to finish the chassis and mount that Lola body.

IMG_3864proof-vi.jpg
 
The two spur gears are a 34 Cox that is dubious in nature and a Cobra 36 that's straight and true. I'll try them both and see which is better later.

Lots to do and plenty of time on my hands today.

:)
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#24 tonyp

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 03:43 PM

Looking good

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#25 dc-65x

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 03:54 PM

Very nice, Jairus.

 

Keep inside out of the freezing rain storm today if you can!


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