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JKRH motor issue


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#1 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:04 PM

I have had a few new JKRH with this same problem. I break all my motors in the same. "Dry break in until the comm is dirty all the way across, sometimes taking 15-20 hours on 4 volts."

 

I am having what seems like "turbo lag." The motor seems to not have any low end power and then all of a sudden it takes off. Then slow down to go around a turn and it has no power again. Half way down the straight it takes off. I know I'm not the only one to have this problem. I also noticed it this weekend in the Orlando area. His motor was good after the race was over.

So my question is how many of you have had this happen to you?

Do you just keep running the motor or throw it away?


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#2 Jimmy Williams

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:18 PM

This happens all too often for me and local racers. This is not just a 7R issue; this has been occurring for over a year for me now. I have seen racers put in over eight motors and have this problem occur every single time.

 

We have not been able to find a solution to this, the only way we were able to avoid it was to switch over to the 4002FKs in our local racing.


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#3 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:23 PM

The 4002FK motor isn't legal with us in Florida.



#4 Jimmy Williams

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:32 PM

I know that, but I'm just saying that this issue is so ridiculous that we couldn't even bother to use them any more. We still use them in Retro but only so many of them work the way they're supposed to. If you are required to race that motor then unfortunately you are going to have to deal with it, at least that is what I've been doing.
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#5 MSwiss

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:34 PM

I haven't seen it by me.
 
But to be honest, in my Wednesday GTP Wednesday, where that motor is used, we don't switch motors very often.
 
We only race on 12.2V and guys have told me they have 20 races on motors. Post #313@
 
Wednesday night racing at Chicagoland
 
As far as the comment, "I break all my motors in the same. 'Dry break in until the comm is dirty all the way across, sometimes taking 15-20 hours on 4 volts.'"
 
I doubt this has anything to do with it, but most guys say they are breaking-in their 7Rs in the car.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#6 Racer36

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:40 PM

I have one that has a slightly different issue. It is a dog until I put about a hundred laps on it on my home track, then it wakes up and is a rocket. Let it sit for an hour and it is a dog again.
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#7 Samiam

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:42 PM

Sounds like the brush arms overheated and lost their tension. Try breaking in at 3-4 volts for 15-20 min. Then run them in on the track but don't overheat them.

 

I have broke my motors in like that and have never had the problem you describe. And I have had fast motors that only had partial brush contact with two contact lines on comm...


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#8 S.O. Watt

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:42 PM

I have had a couple of Hawk 7s do that this year, the etched ones that are current supply. None have been as fast as prior ones.


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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:48 PM

I know that, but I'm just saying that this issue is so ridiculous that we couldn't even bother to use them any more. We still use them in Retro but only so many of them work the way they're supposed to. If you are required to race that motor then unfortunately you are going to have to deal with it, at least that is what I've been doing.


You should send the motors to Tim, so he can analyze them.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
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Westmont, IL 60559
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#10 The Number of

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:52 PM

I have one that is doing that now and there are a couple others at the local track that do the same thing, Don't know what the problem is just replacing them for now, I feel your pain. :)
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#11 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:53 PM

Brian,

I'll bring you a gallon of St John's River water - that is the best way to remedy your RH issues.  

Like small children, they need to learn to swim and be drownproofed before you use them.  :laugh2:

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#12 tonyp

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:01 PM

Brian,

I have found some high amp motors do that on the lower power we have hear in Florida. They are fast when you are alone on the track but slow down when eight cars are on the track and run faster when people fall off.

I save the high amp ones for Ed's and run my lowest at Bill's and P-1.

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#13 John C Martin

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:10 PM

Same here, Dennis.

Four out of five do that, but it only takes a few mins.
I put some in water, turned them up to 12 volts and they come to life for a second but then go back to $hit

I'm thinking the comm slots are full of crud. Tried same procedure, 12 volts, while spraying with Pure still no good.

I give up and I don't fish either...

#14 Noose

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:20 PM

Jimmy,

I found higher amp reading motors did that at HVR but not ones in the .55 to .60 range. The motor of mine you ran last race was a .57 amp one.

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#15 slotcarone

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 11:21 PM

Everything that has been mentioned here is nothing new with these motors. All of these things have been happening since we started using Retro Hawk motors. Doesn't matter what batch they are from.

Nothing unusual for any FK style motor for that matter. Although I never had any of the FKs before the Retro Hawk do the lag type thing Brian is talking about. Many of the RH motors when run on the power supply holding it in my hand will vibrate and then smoothen out and rev up when I give the slightest squeeze to the sides of the can. Some will work in a car and others will not.

Don't have the answers!
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#16 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:03 AM

I've had at least a hundred Hawks over the years, but I've never before had the junk that these motors are. Tim should recall them and relabel them as turds or be used in RTR cars.

 

I do have a stash of old ones there's no comparison in their performance..so why is this thing even being sold as comparable.

 

Simple solution IMO. Let racers run PS4002 motors along with all RH 7 until JK can get their program together again.

 

If series don't take some action and some people run out of their old motors, which most don't have lot of ,it's going to hurt their attendance. At some tracks it has been said there is no difference in the overall lap times of the PS vs JK. This could be verified at all tracks.

 

I know where there's thousands of Kelly PS chassis that were sub standard, thousands of obsolete FX motors, thousands of obsolete tires. JK Tim, these motors should be put in that category and be put in RTR cars only...


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#17 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:09 AM

John,

Should Eric send the 7R motor he won both Retro East races with on Saturday back to JK to put in an RTR car? LOL.

Or Ed Sohl, John Gorski, or Steve Koepp, who podiumed with them this past weekend.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#18 slotcarone

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 12:00 PM

I also ran a 7R for fifth place in the Retro East race. Not lacking for power at all and plenty of brakes.

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#19 Dominator

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 12:21 PM

I just got five and installed three into cars so far.

Two of them spin up good and draw good amps. The jury is still out on the third one.

The point is if everyone is looking for a $13 motor that is going to have a variance no greater than a tenth on the track it's not going to happen. There will always be some duds. Make sure the chassis and body are set up properly and one can cure 80% of the motor issue.
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#20 John Streisguth

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 12:58 PM

And the next batch will be different.  


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"Whatever..."

#21 tonyp

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 01:05 PM

The Chinese way.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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#22 Noose

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 01:06 PM

Well, at least these are now more machine oriented and than human oriented. No pun intended.


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#23 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 01:09 PM

Track attendance already being affected. I know a track that has mandated only the new batches of RH with tan-colored etching.


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#24 Danny Zona

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 01:41 PM

I wonder which track, Charlie? LOL.


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#25 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:27 PM

DZ - I'm sure Brian likes us hijacking.

 

In other sporting industries, manufacturers take a much stronger role in sponsoring their respective events. I wonder why a slot car motor manufacturer doesn't make this bold move?

 

I could easily take the consumers away from competitors if I were selling this stuff... product sponsorship as prizes is a cheap way to be the presenting sponsor! It's not like the racing boards won't take their calls... 

 

"Buy 10 Get One Free' should be the motor marketing slogan ha-ha-ha and raise the prices so it does not cost anything, ($14 x 11)/10.

 

Slot boards should create motor standards with manufacturers that want market share... and are willing to earn it.


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#26 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:39 PM

It's all good reads.

#27 kvanpelt

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:18 PM

Brian, not trying to be a smart a$$, but if the break-in method you used before isn't netting good results now, why not look at another method? It may very well be the motor, but...
 
For instance, some of the fast guys talk of good results running them for multiple short runs on the track under load. Maybe worth a look.
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#28 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:26 PM

Should Eric send the 7R motor he won both Retro East races with on Saturday back to JK to put in an RTR car? LOL.

Or Ed Sohl, John Gorski, or Steve Koepp, who podiumed with them this past weekend.


They should offer thanks to the Gods or try to get those things cloned lol. Why do you always run interference for JK for these horrible turds. LOL... they wouldn't podium with the ones I have or many, many others I've seen, not against the older motors.

Recall this junk or at least don't sell this crap. Do as other manufactures have done. Bite the bullet and eat 'em!!
JK has many, many good products they can afford to eat these, instead of screwing racers with turds and IMO hurting IRRA®.
I refuse to run this particular motor and all series should do the same!!!
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#29 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:32 PM

I have had hundreds of these Retro Hawks as well to be really honest I've only had a handful of bad ones. I can't complain.

 

I didn't want to start **** here just asking what other people have done with the same problem.

 

I do keep running it hoping it will come together or give it to a kid.



#30 Noose

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:33 PM

John,

 

We are doing just fine with them here in Retro East.

 

Look here at these two charts from the last race at SpeedZone. Look what won.

 

GTC - Top three 7Rs. - Eric also broke the track record in qualifying.

 

CoupeMotors.jpg

 

Can-Am winner ran same motor from GTC race - a 7R.

 

Can-AmMotors.jpg


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#31 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:34 PM

John,
In all the discussion about them, I pointed out, I measured a few, and they measured about 20 pts. higher.

But how come, as I pointed out, they are regularly winning races against old motors?

JK eating the 7R motors?

Tim isn't Terry Kelly Cubic $$$ Racing.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#32 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:48 PM

Mine and many others are at least 2 to 3 tenths slower than any of the other 20 or so good motors I have..you guys must have got a different boat load then we have..lol..maybe that junk batch is sold ??
Can anyone really send these back to Jk ?? I can get him a truck load..LOL!!!!
I'd like to hear this from TIM..not Mike..

#33 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:57 PM

I just sent him a text to make him aware of this thread.

Be aware this is "getting packages ready for shipping" time, in the slot car world.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#34 Racer36

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:01 PM

I should clarify that the motor issue I described above is the first one I have had out of about 60 or so motors I have had. The bulk of the ones I have are just fine. They make my cars go fast enough that I crash, which has always been the problem.

 

I personally commend Jerry, and now Tim, at JK for providing a decent product for us to use in a hobby that has more complainers than racers.


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#35 Cheater

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:03 PM

I PM'd Tim a link to this thread yesterday at 7:15 AM ET.


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#36 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:08 PM

Try water break in.It sounds like the dry break in is glazing the comm and making the brushes heat up . The water break in will seat the brushes faster and keep everything nice an d cool. Heat will damage these motors so the last thing you want to do is overheat them while breaking them in.The heat damages the brush arms and makes them loose tension.The water break in also helps to true up the comm kinda like wetsanding something as apposed to dry sanding something.Wetsanding always comes out smoother.


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#37 Brinkley47

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:10 PM

For all those with junk 7Rs, I will pay you shipping to send to me. I am a fan of the 7r.
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#38 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:20 PM

Track attendance already being affected. I know a track that has mandated only the new batches of RH with tan-colored etching.


Tracy told me I couldn't run the old motor there again also..mine are at least 2 tenths faster than the new ones..in the flexie class so I quit racing flexie there as another person has also..


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#39 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:21 PM

I have had hundreds of these Retro Hawks as well to be really honest I've only had a handful of bad ones. I can't complain.

 

I didn't want to start **** here just asking what other people have done with the same problem.

 

I do keep running it hoping it will come together or give it to a kid.

 

This is from the guy that started the thread. " I cant complain"

 

Mine and many others are at least 2 to 3 tenths slower than any of the other 20 or so good motors I have..you guys must have got a different boat load then we have..lol..maybe that junk batch is sold ??
Can anyone really send these back to Jk ?? I can get him a truck load..LOL!!!!
I'd like to hear this from TIM..not Mike..

 

JC do you have those 20 or so because they were the bad one form the old motors? No they were the better ones from the old motors so they were faster than the average old motor. 

 

I buy my motors one or two at a time and use what I get or throw it out if it just stinks. So you Hundreds of motor guys carry on.


Eddie Fleming

#40 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:26 PM

For all those with junk 7Rs, I will pay you shipping to send to me. I am a fan of the 7r.

And I will pay you full price for any that are as fast as my old ones...and you can try to find the golden ones again lol..
No Eddie never got hardly any bad motors at all of the old ones,,
I've done many breakin methods they all work it just depends on if your hurried or not..
these particular ones I tried it all,,didn't matter..

15 hours at 4 volts haven't done that yet Brian I'll do that right now ..thanks.

#41 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:41 PM

Tracy told be I couldn't run the old motor there again also..mine are at least 2 tenths faster than the new ones..in the flexie class so I quit racing flexie there as another person has also..


If everyone is running the same batch of motors, why would you quit?

Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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#42 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:56 PM

I don't know if everyone had the same new ones or old ones I have plenty of older ones and at that time no new ones..
If every one has to eat their old motors,,why shouldn't JK eat their new ones.. they created the problem ..

#43 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 05:24 PM

I don't understand the first line in your last post.

If you like racing, buy whatever motor Tracy requires, and race.

Tim should eat motors when 4 of the top 5 guy's used them, to win a race with 25+ entries?(post #30)

Did Parma eat the Deathstars that weren't as fast as the best ones?


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#44 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 05:43 PM

I don't agree with jk having to "eat" the bad ones. If he wood know what motor will be a A motor or a B motor or a C motor and so on, he would sell them maker as that. It's the luck of the draw. Should the state lotto or power ball buy back the losing tickets? I see no difference. Not trying to start a arguement with you JC but I think that idea is nuts.
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#45 Joe Mig

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:34 PM

Go back to the TSR for now.
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"If everything feels under control... you are not going fast enough!"

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#46 JK Products

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:54 PM

Let's see, who would you listen and respond to:

 

A. Someone who says this: "Tim should recall them and relabel them as turds or be used in RTR cars." No data of any kind is presented.

 

B. Or the data from actual racing (Noose, Mike, etc.) is all positive and shows our motors to be extremely consistent and plenty fast. That's not my opinion or in-house test data, that's actual, irrefutable, independent race data.

 

Me, I'll choose B.

 

Brian, if you have any significant data (not opinions or just one motor) please let me know and we will investigate. Your break-in procedure is not typical. How did you come up with this as optimal? What were you test methods? I would also recommend re-evaluating your gearing and monitor the temperatures on your motors. What you are describing sounds like it could be gearing-related thermal overheating.

 

Are our motors perfect? No. Could they be better, yes, and I'm trying to make them better. Can you sometimes get a dog? Unfortunately, yes, but I"m working hard to make that less and less a possibility. 


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#47 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:59 PM

I've said my thoughts, with no regrets. Data... LOL. LOL..

 

Over and out...



#48 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:29 PM

John,

 

You recently posted a pic of a huge pile of motor parts, for "built" motors, with a string of magnets that looks like a 1/24 model of the Great Wall of China.

 

Why did you need that many magnets?

 

Were you racing five or six times a week?

 

I'm guessing "No," since they actually weren't in motors, and you were cherrypicking through them, because, apparently, you're a "I'll spend a lot of money so I'm sure I'll beat you to the deadman" kind of guy.

 

Did you ask the company who marketed those magnets, to "eat them," because they weren't as awesome as the ones you actually did install in motors?

 

You have thousands of dollars of unused motor parts in that pile, but you are making "turd" comments about JK, because you're "stuck" with $259 of fast old motors, and Tracy wants you to spend $13, $26, $39, or $52 to race with the same generation motor, as his other racers.

 

You're post #42 comment, "If every one has to eat their old motors" is inaccurate.

 

Put your old fast Retro Hawks in the Racer Swap Shop.

 

Since no Retro orgs, that I'm aware of, using IRRA® rules, have banned the old motors, I bet you'll sell them in a hearbeat.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#49 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:47 PM

I got the break in idea from two people. Willy Cluster and I spoke with Tony P which I'm sure has forgotten more about motors than any of us will know.

 

My gearing is the same as everyone that's runs Can-Am


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#50 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:58 PM

Guessed wrong, Mike. Those magnets were all cherrypicked before I got them..

 

Nothing in those pictures cost me a penny either, nor did tires, nor did bodies, nor did chassis... or any other slot part. For 20 years..

That's the reason I raced at over 100 raceways... won many national events in all the scale classes...

 

Bragging? Yes... that's my data..

 

Tim, I know you are doing the best you can, as Jerry did. China stuff is cheap Chinese stuff period... they are not at all mindful of our slot car motors / automobile mirror motors / whatever else.

I'm not stuck with any old motors we still race them at different tracks... but it seems some track owners are headed that way... I can surely afford $14 motors... LOL.

 

We run PS4002FK in Can-Am and everyone is more than happy with them. Only $1 more and etc... etc...







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