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JKRH motor issue


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#51 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:04 PM

Guessed wrong Mike those magnets were all Cherry picked before I got them..
Nothing in those pictures cost me a penny either, nor did tires, nor did bodies, nor did chassis... or any other slot part. For 20 years...


Wow, a fully-sponsored slot car racer.
 
I always thought they were just a myth.
 
I feel like I just spotted Bigfoot.
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#52 MSwiss

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:29 PM

I'm not stuck with any old motors we still race them at different tracks, but it seems some track owners are headed that way. I can surely afford $14 motors. LOL.


Then it sounds like you really don't have a problem.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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#53 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:37 PM

Nope, not me... Just venting my experiences about four out of five pigs that other people have experienced also. LOL.
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#54 John C Martin

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:42 PM

I feel like I just spotted Bigfoot.


There were thee or four more Bigfoots back in the day... right, DZ?
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#55 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:35 PM

That pile of Kelly 16D parts now resides on my workbench. It's a shame I can't use half of it but that's another story.

I've built one Red Fox/Kelly/Gugu motor so far and it's .01 faster then any other 16D I've seen run at SpeedZone since 2009.

Thanks, John!
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#56 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:37 PM

And a pic of the goodness.

20161231_210302.jpg
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Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta

#57 John C Martin

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:01 AM

You're a good man, Dave, helping kids in our little hobby. Glad I could help...

No, I thank you...
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#58 Danny Zona

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:09 AM

The older batch of motors are clearly faster at my home track. I'm sure my test session was biased and not consistent as stated by some in another thread. LMAO

I wonder why there is a rule only the new batch of RHs are allowed at my home track and a few others recently?

I'm am glad this rule is in place to keep it fair.

It is what it is.
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#59 Danny Zona

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:11 AM

Your a good man, Dave, helping kids in our little hobby. Glad I could help...

No, I thank you...


Dave is a cool dude. I met him in Jersey, JC. We have a lot of discussion about built motors.
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#60 Pablo

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:52 AM

I got the break-in idea from two people. Willy Cluster and I spoke with Tony P which I'm sure has forgotten more about motors than any of us will know.

 

"Dry break in until the comm is dirty all the way across, sometimes taking 15-20 hours on 4 volts."

 

So, Brian, I hear you saying Willy Custer and Tony P. recommended you break in JK Hawk Retro (JKHR) motors dry at 4v until the comm is completely dirty?

 

Monty Ohren believed in water break-in and wrote about it in detail. Hershman says dry is the only way to go.

I know some guys like to break in the JKHR at low volts overnight.

 

But I never heard anybody ever recommend breaking in using any method where the goal is a dirty comm.

 

Would I be out of line to suggest your motor problem may be due to... dirty, heat damaged, worn, and or burned, comms?

 

I'll go back to my vintage cave now...  :)


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#61 Cheater

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:00 AM

Pablo,

 

I think you're misinterpreting what's being related.

 

I believe the "dirty" reference means to break the motor in until the comm track made by the brushes is solid side to side.

 

As you know, the brushes on these motors initially only touch on the sides and leave what is essentially two narrow 'stripes' or tracks on the comm surface. As the brushes break-in, the stripes get wider and wide until they connect in the center and the brushes leave a single wide tracking pattern on the comm.

I believe that's what the 'dirty' comment implies. If I am wrong, will the OP please correct me.


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#62 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:03 AM

You are correct, Greg.


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#63 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:04 AM

As Tony P worked for a big company that knows a thing or two about motors, yes, that's what he has recommended to me.


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#64 Noose

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:06 AM

Brian is correct. The method to get to this point where the brushes are fully seated varies. Some get there sooner with a water break-in and others with an extended power supply run. Some both!


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#65 Pablo

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:20 AM

OK, thanks for the clarification. By "dirty" I thought he meant "dirty" LOL.
 
Until the comm track is complete, makes sense.
 
I would still say 20 hours at 4v is a lot of break-in.
 
Also keep in mind brush batches vary sometimes and a break-in routine may work on a certain hardness then be not enough, or too much, for your motor.
 
I'd try dry at 3v for a few hours at a time and check the comm track each time.

Sounds like the advice was good but your brushes on your motors may be slightly softer. We all know FK motors are not forever exactly the same. Try backing off on the power and time.
 
I thought I had water break-in down to a science with amount of power and duration for a certain FK motor. Then one day I did my usual routine, 3v for 45 secs, turned my head to watch TV, and when I looked back the water was black and brushes were gone LOL.


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#66 Cheater

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:26 AM

Also keep in mind brush batches vary sometimes...


Pablo, it isn't just sometimes, it's pretty much all the time.

Manufacturing these kinds of motor brushes is really a mysterious black art. Even the best companies making them have a terrible time making a consistent, homogenous product, as Tony P will tell you.

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#67 brnursebmt

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:57 AM

I've never tried these 15-20 hour or overnight break-ins but I would think that running a motor overnight without periodic oiling would wear the bearings out for sure!


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#68 Half Fast

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:01 AM

It might also give rise to heat issues, damaging the brush arms.
 
Cheers.

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#69 Brian Ambrose

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:16 AM

I have never said I leave the motor overnight. I only have the motor on the power supply as I'm there working on something else. I do stop and check and oil them often.
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#70 Danny Zona

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:33 AM

I have raced a three-hour endurance race before without oiling the motor besides before the race. Had no problems.

Of course 15 hours is a different story.
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#71 kvanpelt

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:04 PM

I personally only break the motors in on the track. I found running them on power supplies for less than 12 hours a waste LOL.

 
Words from one of our best!
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#72 Danny Zona

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:14 PM

Track time is surely the best break-in process, IMO.
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#73 Cap Henry

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:00 PM

Brian, I've never had your exact experience. Last year at R4 I did have one Retro Hawk that would run 5.0s for 5-6 laps, then take off and run 4.5s. If you kept running it, it was fine. Let it sit and it would do it again. No idea why. Just used it for practice until it wore out. Never had one do it since.

My above quoted statement is how I feel. Not saying it's right or the only way. I personally don't bother putting them on a power supply before installing. I run them 30 laps, stop, let it cool, repeat. You'll see the motor continue to pick up. I do it until it levels off.

 

New motors seeking to take 100-150 laps on a King, sometimes more. I try to do motors in groups so I can do multiple cars to avoid just standing around while it cools. But I know not everyone has this luxury.

I've tried water break-in, and for me I was always worried about over running them and killing the brushes.

Running them for a few hours and anything less than 12 hours seemed like the brushes still weren't making full contact.


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#74 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:24 PM

If you have a motor that has two speeds going on, most likely it has a hung up brush or brush arm. If you look at both brushes and one is wearing more than the other I would suspect a hung or weak brush arm.

 

If you look further in at the brush arms you will notice it has glue on it where it meets up with the endbell. I believe this glue is the problem. It is either too far down the brush arm or their is too much and it is keeping the brush arm from pressing the brush against the comm.

 

This is why when the brushes get smaller the motor sometimes loses its speed due to no brush tension.


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#75 Cheater

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:28 PM

No real experience with the issue, but my thinking has also been that this is some kind of brush tension problem, perhaps one that changes in relation to the level of heat the motor has absorbed/experienced.

 

Again, we're dealing with a $13 retail motor here, one whose brush system is not optimal.


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#76 Cap Henry

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:48 PM

Like I said, was only one motor, never knew why, didn't really care just used it for practice.

 

Was good fun though messing with people when your car magically went half a second faster. LOL


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#77 willy wonka

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:13 PM

I've experienced what Cap is saying before. At least three times. Motor is slow while cool, soon as it picks up heat it takes off like it shifts in overdrive.


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#78 John C Martin

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:25 PM

Brian, I've never had your exact experience. Last year at R4 I did have one Retro Hawk that would run 5.0s for 5-6 laps, then take off and run 4.5s. If you kept running it, it was fine. Let it sit and it would do it again. No idea why. Just used it for practice until it wore out. Never had one do it since.
My above quoted statement is how I feel. Not saying it's right or the only way. I personally don't bother putting them on a power supply before installing. I run them 30 laps, stop, let it cool, repeat. You'll see the motor continue to pick up. I do it until it levels off.
 
New motors seeking to take 100-150 laps on a King, sometimes more. I try to do motors in groups so I can do multiple cars to avoid just standing around while it cools. But I know not everyone has this luxury.
I've tried water break-in, and for me I was always worried about over running them and killing the brushes.
Running them for a few hours and anything less than 12 hours seemed like the brushes still weren't making full contact.

 

That's exactly what happened on four out of five bombs I bought... LOL.



#79 raisin27

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:43 PM

I have had the same thing happen on some of my RH motors as Cap described.


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#80 Noose

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:51 PM

I had it happen once with an "R" version. When it kicked in it was like someone hit the NOS button. I removed it from the car and wound it up on the power supply. I could hear it kick in but I also saw a slight shaft movement. When it moved, bingo NOS time.
 
At Tony's suggestion, I put it on the power supply at 2 volts for 20 minutes. Don't know what it did but it was cured and that motor was special.  RIP, "Vendetta."


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#81 Pablo

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 04:21 PM

20 minutes or 20 hours? :laugh2:


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#82 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:17 PM

I have had many older version Hawk Retro motors that ran slow for the first 6 to 8 laps of every heat. Then picked out and were very fast. That is why I stopped cooling the motors off between heats. Only in the last month, I went back to cooling the motors off between heats.

 

I think that I am being too aggressive on the gear ratio which is causing the motors to run very hot. I don't think that the aggressive gear ratio is causing the slow/fast phenomenon but I think it does lead to a loss of brakes.


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#83 Noose

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:32 PM

Pablo,

 

20 minutes.


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#84 Jay Guard

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:10 PM

I've had only one Hawk Retro do the same slow/fast thing.  I was recently in an Enduro race and for the first two or three minutes of the heat it was average to slow, then after that it took off and was the fastest motor on the track for the remainder of the heat.  Then when the power went off for the lane change it would revert back to slow-mode at the beginning of the next heat.  We even tried to keep the motor running during the lane change but it didn't make a difference, still slow/fast. No idea what would make it do that.

 

Nonetheless I am a HUGE supporter of the JK Hawk Retro.  I think it's one of the best things to happen to slot car racing in a long time and would like to thank Tim for his continued efforts to provide us with quality products. 


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#85 Pablo

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:13 PM

Pablo-20 minutes

 

I know, Joe, I was just kidding. The OP refers to "15-20 hours on 4 volts".

In my opinion, that's not a "break in" - it's a recipe for failure.


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#86 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:36 PM

I have had a few new JKRH with this same problem. I break all my motors in the same. "Dry break in until the comm is dirty all the way across, sometimes taking 15-20 hours on 4 volts."

 

I am having what seems like "turbo lag." The motor seems to not have any low end power and then all of a sudden it takes off.

 

 

This happens all too often for me and local racers. This is not just a 7R issue; this has been occurring for over a year for me now. I have seen racers put in over eight motors and have this problem occur every single time.

 

 

I have one that has a slightly different issue. It is a dog until I put about a hundred laps on it on my home track, then it wakes up and is a rocket. Let it sit for an hour and it is a dog again.

 

 

I have had a couple of Hawk 7s do that this year, the etched ones that are current supply. None have been as fast as prior ones.

 

 

I have one that is doing that now and there are a couple others at the local track that do the same thing, Don't know what the problem is just replacing them for now, I feel your pain. :)

 

 

Same here, Dennis.

Four out of five do that, but it only takes a few mins.
I put some in water, turned them up to 12 volts and they come to life for a second but then go back to $hit

 

 

 Last year at R4 I did have one Retro Hawk that would run 5.0s for 5-6 laps, then take off and run 4.5s. If you kept running it, it was fine. Let it sit and it would do it again.

 

 

I've experienced what Cap is saying before. At least three times. Motor is slow while cool, soon as it picks up heat it takes off like it shifts in overdrive.

 

 

I have had the same thing happen on some of my RH motors as Cap described.

 

 

I have had many older version Hawk Retro motors that ran slow for the first 6 to 8 laps of every heat. Then picked out and were very fast.

 

 

I've had only one Hawk Retro do the same slow/fast thing.

 

 

I had it happen once with an "R" version. When it kicked in it was like someone hit the NOS button.

 

 

Sounds like a bunch of guys who know nothing about slot cars, correct motor break in procedures, how to gear a slot car or thermal over heating. LMAO

 

Seriously though, I feel instead of blaming the racer (again), a simple "I'm sorry the motors are inconsistent at times, but we are doing the best we can to improve our already great products" would have been more then anyone could ask for.

 

Nobody expects every motor they buy to be a missile.

 

I for one enjoy the majority of JK's products Tim, and I very much appreciate your efforts. Some of us are just tired of the "you don't know what your doing speech".

 

If you have some time in your busy schedule could you reply the questions I asked in a PM on November 28th?

 

To be clear I'm not bashing JK, or looking for a back and forth argument, and I'm not looking for an official response. I am simply stating my opinion.


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#87 Brian Ambrose

Brian Ambrose

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:49 PM

Nor was I asking for all this Bull$hit. I asked a question about a motor. I have only had this happen 2 or 3 times in the hundreds of hawks I have had. In no way am I complaining about anything from JK. I was simply asking if the lag will go away or should I replace the motor. I will continue to break my motors in the way I do. I'm doing this as a dry break in as per the conversation I had with Tony P.

I think I have had enough of the back and fourth bashing. I would hope Greg will either delete this post or freeze it.
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