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Champion 517/Dynamic Eagle Weslake V12


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 10:38 AM

I have two motors to choose from, a used 517 with chrome can, and a new (out of the package) 517-26. Even has the guarantee. :dance3:

A dyed Jet flag, 33t Cox crown, some fresh donuts, and Riggen fronts.
 
IMG_4792.JPG
 
Brand new in the box Eagle with all accessories.
 
IMG_4795.JPG
 
First step is to get the 48 year old arms, cans, and mags en route to Fast Ones for a rebalance/comm freshening/zapping service.

 

:)


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#2 dc-65x

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 12:26 PM

Hi, Pablo.   :bye: :popcorm1:  :)

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#3 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 12:49 PM

Nice selection of parts for a new build. :D

That 517-26 is really sweet!

#4 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 04:51 PM

Thanks, guys. I'm pretty revved up over this one!! :hi:

Today I planned to open up the motors, take photos and notes, box up the arms and cans, mail it off to Indiana, and return to my Hooptie build.

It turned out to be a little more involved than that. :D  Not complainin' Heck, if this was easy your Aunt Gerdie would be doing it. :laugh2:
 
Upon inspection, the "517-26" isn't a virgin as I had thought. Hairline crack in endbell bushing housing and some crazy solder work which has welded one of the hardware screws and the spring end to the heatsink.
 
IMG_4797.JPG
 
Post protectors crimped onto the posts.
 
IMG_4802.JPG
 
Comm was dirty and shows a huge brush track for small brushes - indicative of too much slop.
 
IMG_4804.JPG
 
- Arm slop was excessive and comm was riding hard against the endbell bushing due to improper mag placement.
- No spacers on comm end.
- Shaft is fairly straight, not perfect but not too bad.
- Wires, glue, comm tab connections, lams, all look great.
- Arco mags are strong as heck.
- Arm OD is about .522" and mag hole is about .550" - a good airgap choice for this motor IMO.
- Brush hoods are crooked.
- Bushing alignment is perfect.
 
Before I bagged the arm/can for mailing, I polished the shaft, faced both ends, and shaved 10 thou of material off the back of the Champion shim to allow the mags to center the arm in its sweet spot. A few drops of CA secured the mags and shim right where I want them. When the parts return, I know they are going to fit right.
 
IMG_4807.JPG
 
I'll bet what happened was, at some point some cherrypicker sliced open the wrapper to test the motor, wasn't impressed due to multiple small issues holding it back, and slipped it back under the wrapper. All those issues are easily fixed and this thing will soon come alive the way it was made to. :aggressive:
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#5 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:35 PM

Hooked up the chrome can 517 motor to determine polarity - runs smooth and mild. A much tamer animal than the "517-26".
 
IMG_4810.JPG
 
IMG_4822.JPG
 
In the end, it may be a much better choice for a skinny, top-heavy F1 style slot car than an amp-sucking 26 wire beast.

Or at least, an alternative. Since the motor bracket will be "endbell screw in" with tapped 2-56 holes, having two motor choices for different tracks is possible.
 
This one has more wear and tear, but it was set up with more care. I couldn't find much wrong with it, assembly-wise:
 
- Arm spacing perfect.
- Comm track looks good.
- Both posts partially melted/eroded but covered by post protectors.
- Bushings in good shape, perfectly aligned.
- Brush holder alignment very good.
 
I doubt this is a 517 arm. There will be a book coming out soon that will clarify what was what. :lazy: Meantime, all I can do is guess.
 
IMG_4831.JPG

- Comm appears good.
- Glue on the winds is either non-existent or too sparse and some winds are not secure.
- Shaft is very straight.
- Arm OD .522", mag hole .550".
- Mags not nearly as strong as the "517-26" motor, so (again) I guess they are not Arco 33s like the "517-26".
- Arm is grind balanced with thicker lams than the "517-26".
 
Notice my quotation marks on the motor designation numbers?
It's because I cannot verify authenticity, or lack therof, of any of these parts.
Not without a reliable reference. I'm just a mechanic, not an historian. :)
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#6 Jay Guard

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 09:14 PM

Pablo:

FWIW the arm looks just like a Champion arm to me. I have several that look just like the one you have pictured. The balance grinding on my arms is exactly like the one you have pictured and they have the same thick plastic insulators (with vertical tab) as mine.

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#7 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 10:52 PM

The only arms, other than Champion, that I've seen grind balanced were the Camen X12 arms in the early 2000s. The only production arm I've seen using the nylon insulators were Champions.

With that being said, I know Champion sold the insulators separately and I believe they would also grind balance any arms sent in one of the cloth bags they sold for balancing.

Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#8 Pablo

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 10:25 AM

Thanks, guys. :)

The black can and arm, and the chrome can, will go here:
 
Hershman.jpg
 
The ground stack arm will go here:
 
Havlicek.jpg
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#9 Neckcheese

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 01:56 PM

Pablo:

Contact me if you need any Champion 517 repro stickers.
 
Stickers for your restored Mura, etc., motors
 
Niels

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#10 Pablo

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 05:02 PM

Thanks, Niels, I have some. Good to know you have more if I need them. :)
 
Chrome can arm with loose wires was checked today, and determined to be a fail. Good thing I had it checked first. :yes3:
 
Fresh orange donuts glued on new Professor Motor Russkit replica extra-wide set screw wheels.
 
IMG_4863.JPG
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#11 Pablo

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 03:32 PM

Cans and arm back from HEI Fast Ones. I can hardly wait to hear the 517 run.

 

IMG_4955.JPG


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#12 Pablo

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 04:43 PM

I guess the endbells did come from the factory with the post protectors crimped, because I found a similar motor of mine crimped also. Whatever. The crimped ones came off and I'll put new ones on with a microdot of CA.

 

Removing the hood with the solder blob on it was risky. Bending the wire tab out of the way could break it, the endbell could melt, and re-heated solder could adhere even better. I heated up my smallest iron, cut a piece of Soder-Wick, and said a prayer.

 

IMG_4958.JPG

 

All I have to do is get enough solder out of the screw head to enable a driver to bite, get the hood out of there, and fiddle with it away from the endbell. I trussed it up like it was going in for surgery, stuck the wick on top of the screw hole, applied the iron for about a second, and stopped quick as soon as I saw a little solder wick into the braid. Bingo. Driver fit right in, screw came out and the blob came with it.  :sun_bespectacled:

 

IMG_4961.JPG


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#13 Pablo

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 07:41 PM

- Brush hoods aligned; patina left as is.

- Small brushes pre-radiused to pro-er size with Koford tool.

- Endbell mounting holes drilled and tapped 2-56.

- New post protectors installed and stock springs straightened.

 

IMG_4970.JPG

 

Arm perfectly centered and spaced. Motor is oiled and ready to test.

 

IMG_4975.JPG


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#14 Pablo

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 08:59 PM

After a low voltage break in, ending in 3v /1.3 amps, she's smooth and cool.

 

Then I fed her some power - sings real sweet, just like she was designed to do. :whistle3:


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#15 Pablo

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 03:29 PM

I think it would be cool to have two motor choices, one wild, one mild. The wild black 517 is done.

The mild chrome motor with non-Arco magnets needs an arm.

Deep in the armature box of horrors, I found a new H Power FT-16D 65t of 30 wire, 15 degree timed, .520" OD arm

 

IMG_4982.JPG

 

Perfect fit and it will give me exactly what I want - a mild alternative to the black motor.

- brushes pre-radiused for the big comm.

- all other blueprinting was already checked/done.

- magnets re-set to position the new arm and re-glued.

- stock post protectors secured with microdot of CA.

- endbell holes tapped 2-56.

- broken-in for 20 mins at 2v and 3v

- a new Champion sticker

 

Sure enough, ultra smooth, runs dead cool, draws .50 amps at 3v.

 

Who knows, the car may even turn better lap times with this one.

 

IMG_4985.JPG


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#16 TSR

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 10:37 PM

Paul,

 

The 517 and 517-26 have the same armatures. 

The original "517" with chrome-plated can had a #27 wire size, and was updated to to a #26 wire in an "evo" version with larger brass heat sinks on the endbell. This was the "517-B."

In August 1968, Champion introduced a new version of the 517, now painted in matte black to dissipate more heat. The only available armature wire size for the assembled motors was now the # 26AWG, the armatures still retaining the nylon insulators and dynamically balanced by stack grinding. Other armatures of different specification were available separately with color-coded insulation for easier identification. The nylon insulators were treated by boiling them in water containing various colors of tool dye. Red was used for #26 wire, green for #27 wire, purple for #28 wire, and blue for #29. The dye was very light in color so close observation is necessary to figure the actual shade.

The armature you show with the red insulating material is from later versions of the motor,  a whole range beginning with the "535" all the way to the "Group 7", the same blanks used for all versions first with red insulating epoxy, then gray. You can recognize these later motors by their smaller can bearing and their side cut-outs for venting. These still had their comm wires soldered, but at least the wires were tied around the arm's shaft, so had less of a tendency to go nuclear when the solder melted, which happened quite often. 

One has to assume that at one stage, the owner of that black "517-26" damaged the original armature and purchased a later version over the counter. Looks like the insulators are kind of green, meaning it's likely a #27 wire. 

I hope this helps. 

 



#17 Pablo

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:57 AM

Thank you, Herr Dokktor.  :good:  I appreciate it.

 

So in summary it appears both motors are 517s but the black one has newer versions of magnets and arm. Good enough.

 

:)


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#18 Jairus

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 11:08 AM

Very clean work, Paul!  :good:


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#19 Pablo

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 05:13 PM

Thanks, Jairus.  :)

 

Don Weaver gave me this tool. He calls it a "motor breakin platform" - I call it a "Champion motor mounting template."  :D

In a previous build, I drilled the holes to fit the Champion endbell.

 

IMG_8750.JPG

 

I silver-soldered a Champion endbell gizmo from the 517-26 package to a Russkit bracket.

Then tack-soldered the Russkit to the tool in a few places with 60/40.

 

IMG_4986.JPG


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#20 Pablo

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 07:28 PM

Holes drilled, bracket comes off the tool, some fine filing, sanding, and cleanup, bam!

A Russkit bracket that fits a Champion endbell.

It may look like the screws are pushing against the bushing flange, but in fact they miss by about 9 thou.

 

IMG_4992.JPG


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#21 Pablo

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 12:17 PM

Parts prep:

 

- Jet Flag blueprinted and faced.

- rear rubber rough-cut.

- front rubber glued on with Permatex black sealant/adhesive.

- both motors received Sonic 7t solder-on steel pinions.

 

IMG_5003.JPG


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#22 olescratch

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 03:07 PM

Nice! A very good idea, gonna have to try this one myself! 

Did you leave the endbell in place while 'tacking'?
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#23 Pablo

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 05:33 PM

John, please read the entire thread and look at the photos.

No way I'd put an iron or acid even close to a 50-year old endbell unless the situation demanded it.
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#24 Pablo

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 07:13 PM

Chassis will be based on (not an exact replica) John Cukras' 1967 four-rail GP car with brass sheet drop arm.

Morrissey, Thigpen, and Okeefe have all built and documented variations of this car, so my job is easy.
 
Wheelbase 4"
Guide lead 3/4"
Wheel widths 3"
Rear wheels 7/8" by 5/8"
Front wheels 3/4"
 
.047" wire braces, telescoping axle tube strengtheners, and single slit oil notches.
 
IMG_5014.JPG
 
IMG_5010.JPG
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#25 Pablo

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 06:07 PM

A local hobby shop was going out of business so I bought a tube of 36" 1/16 brass rod.
I cut some into shorter lengths, chamfered the ends, sanded with 2,000 grit, and cleaned with isopropyl alcohol.
Then checked for straightness:
 
IMG_5025.JPG
 
To my surprise, not a single one was a fail. :shok:
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#26 Pablo

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 09:54 PM

All jigged up and ready for rails. My jig motor has been cooked too many times but it still gets the job done.
 
IMG_5027.JPG
 
Funny how you can't remember some things, but others you never forget - like endbelldrive's 2" front axle tube.  :)
 
Cukras' four-rail car in the December 1967 Car Model Road Race at Classic Speedway, Santa Monica, CA, used a Honda body.

So I took some time to carefully measure the exact chassis width measurements of the Weslake Eagle.

Front pin tube - 1.185", rear pin tube (center of body) 1.275", rear rails (adjacent to pinion) 1.260".


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#27 Pablo

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 06:17 PM

My Cukras style 4 rails will be a combination of tapers and curves to make it fit.

The small Sharpie dots on the inner rail mark start and stop points where I made my curve.

 

IMG_5028.JPG

 

olescratch may get a kick out of seeing the actual Champion chrome motor in place for the tacks :)

Both Champion motors are longer and slightly fatter than my Mabuchi jig motor.

 

At the second Sharpie mark, the curve stops and a slight inward taper starts.

The drop arm will simply be narrowed/tapered to fit the inner rails

 

IMG_5030.JPG


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#28 Pablo

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 11:44 AM

Inspirational video:

 


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#29 Pablo

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:42 PM

Final trim on rear wheels .883" OD

 

IMG_5034.JPG

 

Despite my attempts to use the 50 year old front rubber, it was a fail.

It looked good enough to use, but when I started trimming it from .775" to .750" OD, it chunked.

 

IMG_5037.JPG

 

No sweat, I'll just install some new EJ's rubber on the Riggen wheels and move on :to_become_senile:


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#30 Jairus

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 11:04 PM

Stuff happens Paul.
EJ's rubber is soft. Go slow!
Better would be to find a cheap "O" ring.


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#31 Pablo

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:43 AM

True, but it wasn't an accident. The rubber was simply tired.

 

I'm no stranger to trimming EJ's but thanks for reminding me - Orings may work better on these hubs :good:

I'll check both.


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#32 Pablo

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 05:20 PM

Probably the biggest challenge of this build - squeezing 4 rails into the skinny body - I did it ! :dance3:

Met my width goals so the body can enjoy the benefits of the Cukras floating mount without being forced.

 

My uprights are done differently due to the nature of the beast.

Cukras' actual car used a Honda body.

 

IMG_5050.JPG

 

Others have built 4 railers for the Weslake Eagle no problem.

True, but the ones I've seen were reproductions, most likely wider than this one.

 

I abandoned the curved rail approach - matter of fact, at one point I was sure 4 rails wouldn't even be possible.

Here is what worked for me in the end:

-rods are as tight to the motor as possible

-single inward bend in the rods at the front of the motor and no spaces between them

-drop arm will be custom sized and tapered to match inner rails

 

Of course, both motors had to fit perfectly and that took some fiddling.

Now I can breathe again .......... :D


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#33 Pablo

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:06 AM

As usual, my moment of clarity came at 2 am. The orange donuts will be fine for the chrome 29 motor.

But the black 26 with Arcos will probably just spin them and the car will barely move :laugh2:

So I mounted some modern rubber (JK D-4) on another new set of Professor Motor 724 Russkit replica wheels

 

IMG_5057.JPG

 

Jairus is right, a fat O-ring will work better for the Riggen front wheels, so I ordered some size 309's from McMaster-Carr.


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#34 Pablo

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 06:56 PM

Yup, the 309's fit perfect :)

 

IMG_5060.JPG


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#35 bluecars

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 07:19 PM

Looks like you have a lot to use up. Better get to building! :laugh2:


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#36 Don Weaver

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 07:29 PM

According to the package he has plenty of time:  "Shelf life: 15 years". :D 


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Don Weaver
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it will starve to death...


#37 bluecars

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 07:32 PM

True that. :D Only 34 more cars to go. :wacko2:


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#38 Pablo

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 10:08 AM

The minimum quantity was 50, so you guys better get building.  :laugh2:


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#39 dc-65x

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 11:32 AM

At least they only cost about $5 a bag. :crazy:


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#40 Pablo

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 01:04 PM

Y'all know where they are if you need some.  :)


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#41 Pablo

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 10:04 AM

Chassis is done.

 

IMG_5066.JPG

 

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Paul Wolcott

#42 Samiam

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 11:15 AM

Nice!

 

So many little details to peruse over. Love that drop arm.


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#43 Cap Henry

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 01:37 PM

Man, that thing is sweet.


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#44 Pablo

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 05:10 PM

Thanks, guys.  :)

 

Final trim of the D4 rears (.880") and O-ring fronts (.752").

Extended portion of Jet Flag blade removed, then re-dyed in black Rit.

1/4 oz. Associated weight attached with double sided wing tape to stay low as possible.

 

IMG_5091.JPG


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Paul Wolcott

#45 Pablo

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 08:34 PM

I've always had difficulty using a screw and washer to secure vintage flag shafts.

The bulge created when the screw is tightened down always binds things up.  :dash2:

 

I finally got serious and tapped the shaft hole 2-56. End of problem, no wobble no binding.

 

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Paul Wolcott

#46 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 February 2017 - 09:45 PM

We would cut the guide post about 1/16" longer than the length (or thickness) of the droparm's guide post tube holder.

 

Next, we screwed a self-tapping screw and washer into the post's top.

 

Last, we used a hot soldering iron on top of the screw to melt everything down and used a screwdriver to keep the screw down until the plastic hardened.

 

Using the soldering iron eliminated guide wobble, tightened everything up so the guide rotated smoothly, and didn't create any bulges. The self-tapping screws used were slotted fillister head body mounting screws.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#47 Pablo

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:29 AM

Cool, Bill.  :)

 

Assembly is getting serious now.

- genuine Cox Superflex wires.

- silver braids soldered to holder gizmos.

- custom sized and polished PCH axles.

- ball bearings are vintage seven-ball, unshielded, high quality but unknown brand.

 

IMG_5119.JPG


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Paul Wolcott

#48 Pablo

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 03:51 PM

Each motor, mild and wild, has its own dedicated wires, clips, pinion, and wheels.

 

IMG_5124.JPG


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Paul Wolcott

#49 Pablo

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 05:57 PM

Assembly is complete, for now anyway.

For testing purposes, modern braid is used and wires are left long

 

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Drivetrain test: absolutely scary powerful :whistle3:

 


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Paul Wolcott

#50 bluecars

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 08:47 AM

Anther great build as always See you Sat.


Robert "Red" Valantine :diablo: 






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