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PS4002 meltdown


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#1 swodem

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 03:53 AM

We have had an ongoing issue (not at our track but at others) with 4002 motors getting such a big short it heats the endbell hardware up such it melts itself to destruction (spring).

 

For the first time it happened today at our track.

 

A visitor from another track who isn't a motor fiddler was driving his car and stopped for a while. When he went to go again 'poof' smoke arose from the back of his car and it was all over.

 

The positive brush got flung out by the spring releasing its tension once the screw pulled free of the melted endbell and fused itself to the body - it was that hot! Neither brushes showed an abnormal wear pattern.

 

We put another motor in and got him going and I kept the parts I could for review.

 

A quick autopsy tonight revealed nothing more than a dirty comm (oil?) and some bridging of one comm segment to another.

 

Thoughts on why? It was running strong before this happened...

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#2 Samiam

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 09:53 AM

Could this be the dreaded push start issue ISSUE?

The car may not have moved when the trigger was pulled and he smoked it. Are these guys aligning the hoods using Swiss's Backtrack or Rick's R-Geo tool?
Sam Levitch
 
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#3 Racer36

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 10:15 AM

I suspect Sam is correct. The brush in the picture is full width and is broken in enough to cause the push start problem, which is nothing but a dead short.

Dennis Dominey

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#4 Pablo

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 10:30 AM

Looks like it's geared pretty tall for a 4002. Especially with those extra-wide wheels y'all run. :)
Body cutting a groove in the tires probably didn't help.

Brush marks on comm sure look long. if I'm right, the arm was really sloppy and possible riding hard on one end or the other due to not being centered.
 
These motors do fail sometimes. They look similar to the 4002B but are not even close to being the same quality and care of assembly.
Paul Wolcott

#5 havlicek

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 12:38 PM

Whatever the cause, that's a real "1960s" kinda meltdown for a 2017 kinda motor! Mr. Mabuchi would be jealous!

 

-john


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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 03:38 PM

The car may not have moved when the trigger was pulled and he smoked it.

 
We've been having less issues locally, since I started making the below brushes available.
 
Cut-down brushes for PS4002FK / JK Hawk 6 motors
 
When the car doesn't go, keeping the finger on the trigger definitely isn't a good idea.
 
FWIW, they will "pop" on my King (12.2v, medium-amp power supply, heavy wiring) but do not (that I recall) on my flat track (13.1v hi-amp power supply, very mild wiring).

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
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#7 Frankie Schaffier

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 05:47 PM

Steve,

I had exactly the same thing happen to two of my FKs. Both when I pulled the trigger when it wouldn't go. Think I would have learned the first time. :)

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#8 Brinkley47

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 06:10 PM

The very first one I bought did this exact same thing. Since then, never had a problem. I always check the hardware and brush arc before running them now. Sometimes magnets will hit the arm generating lots of heat. I believe that was the problem with the first one I had.
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#9 NSwanberg

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 01:04 AM

"When the car doesn't go, keeping the finger on the trigger definitely isn't a good idea."
 
Absolutely do not hold your controller full open if the car stalls at the start. At Downriver Speedway we call this being FK'd or FK'ing.
 
I find the the trailing edge of the brushes wear and wrap further around the commutator creating a dead short across one of the leaves of the comm. I can usually solve the problem by simply filing about 1/32 of an inch off of the trailing edge of the brushes away. Not a hard thing to do at all.
 
Interestingly enough it seems the well broken-in motors do not FK as often as motors that are in their third or forth race. It is aggravating but I find it can be dealt with. I have never smoked an FK motor. Almost all the ones that I have lost were due to one of the wires breaking at the comm connection. That hurts when it is an exceptional motor that you lose.

The other issue I have is the endbell bushing spinning. Most of the FK motors I have were bought over the counter at Downriver Speedway. I think eight so far.
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#10 willy wonka

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 07:45 AM

I have about 30 PS-FKs and I've experienced what the OP has as well. I hit the trigger for maybe two seconds, didn't go hit it again and smoke arose. As I take my body off I realized that both wires on the motor unsoldered themselves it got so hot. Also it blew the hardware off the positive side I believe.

Like Nelson I've noticed a lot of the endbell bushings spinning free, some after a very short amount of run time.

Other than that it's a pretty good motor for the money.
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#11 Zippity

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:44 PM

Posted in another thread:

 

Sadly, brushes "cannot be timed, drilled, friction cut, or fitted with shunts" here in New Zealand.  :(

 

This motor is the mainstay of our 1/24 scale racing.



#12 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:02 PM

Are you allowed to change brushes and springs?

If so, disallowing cut brushes makes even less sense.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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#13 Zippity

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:18 PM

Mike,

 

The full wording of the New Zealand rule states:

 

1.5 - Brushes and Springs – Brushes & springs may be changed. Brushes cannot be timed, drilled, friction cut or fitted with shunts.

 

I only follow the rules.  :(



#14 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:26 PM

Like I said in my thread on cut brushes, the only rationale to allow a change is to improve performance or reliability, so why not allow cut brushes?

Plus, a new brush is essentially a cut brush until it is fully broken in.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#15 Zippity

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:32 PM

Mike,

 

I'm not disagreeing with you.  :)



#16 Samiam

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 07:04 PM

There is more than one way to skin a cat. :rolleyes: 


Sam Levitch
 
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#17 Zippity

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 07:12 PM

:) :popcorm1:



#18 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 07:47 PM

I'm not yet a believer in the theory that push-starts and melted endbells are..

1. The same thing
2. Due to brushes being so big on a small comm

Reasoning:

1. Many push starts are not shorting out, they don't burn or smoke they just won't go.

2. Why if it's related to brush size are some like it from birth, and sometimes they improve and stop once run in, theoretically they should get worse

3. Why don't they all do it?

I think that push-starts are motors with an elliptical comm that's not getting brush contact on one comm segment when it should - hence no short.

I don't know yet what is creating the short or where it's shorting out, but will look deeper into this melted one I have and try and find out.



#19 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:48 PM

1. Many push starts are not shorting out, they don't burn or smoke they just won't go


Probably varies by track, depending on current delivery. My King with eighteen 10 AWG taps pops motors. My Flat, with eight 14 AWG taps, doesn't.
 

2. Why if it's related to brush size are some like it from birth, and sometimes they improve and stop once run in, theoretically they should get worse.


The fit of the brush to the hood, varies wildly.
 

3. Why don't they all do it?


Because they all don't have the same good or bad alignment, and, again, the fit of the brush to the hood, varies wildly.
 

I think that push-starts are motors with an elliptical com that's not getting brush contact on one com segment when it should - hence no short


You must be kidding - LOL. Unless you step down the whole segment/essentially remove it, how is the spring not going to press the (unhung) brush enough to find comm? Regardless how could the motor still be fast with an out of round comm?


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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Chicagoland Raceway
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#20 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 10:25 PM

Quickly, because I am at work, I'm not kidding, see sketch. You could imagine a scenario where com segment 1 gets contact late.

No 'short' involved.

I don't believe lower current tracks wouldn't burn out a shorted motor... even low power tracks have huge amps.

meadows.jpg

#21 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 10:47 PM

Sorry, Steve, but you are 100% incorrect.

A - Again, a motor with a comm that shape would never be fast.

B - You would have to believe that the Chinese elipitical comm somehow only finds its way to the neo mag PS4002FK and JK Hawk 6 armatures, but not other cheap Chinese armatures, including the PS4002 and JK Hawk.

How come there isn't any history of these ceramic mag, non-heavy cogging motors, having start-up issues?

Even low power tracks have huge amps? You can make that claim based on what?

Being to every slot racing facility in the world?

When we started racing Hardbodies on my flat track, along with the minimal wiring, we ran on an equally puny, 12v, 28 amp power supply set-up.

It was adequate to race Falcon 7s and ceramic magnet minimotors.

When we went to the 4002FK, when you had ones that had start-up issues, if they were in that bad spot at the start of a heat or after a track call, not only would they not burn/pop, but the other seven cars would start up slow.

If the non-starting was caused by your elliptical comm theory, no circuit is being made, and the other seven cars, of course, wouldn't be affected.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
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Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#22 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:07 PM

Gee, you're cranky today, Swiss!!

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this

Yes, the motor could be OK-fast; even one with a blown pole isn't that slow.

You then please explain to me a push start motor that doesn't short/burn out or get hot.
As I said, not all push-starts turn to sticky messes.

I'm just trying to understand what/where the problem is to be able to rectify it.

You're assuming the ceramic motors came from same factory...

You make some valid points though and I'm not saying you're wrong.

Oh and yes I have been to every track in the world. ;-)

And if 28 amps ain't much, you stick your tongue on the braid and pull the trigger.



#23 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:22 PM

Don't do the tongue thing!!!



#24 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:22 PM

My post #21 debunks your elliptical comm, no connection, theory.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#25 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:25 PM

I did read it. It may be a shorting out one (endbell melter) rather than a push-start one

I'm going to direct wire up an arm to our track that has one pole disconnected and replicate my theory and see what happens.



#26 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:27 PM

And the ceramic motors aren't made in the same factory?

If you don't rotate the arm, you can't tell the difference between the 4002 and the 4002FK.

And the the can ends of both of those, and both of the JK minimotors, are identical.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#27 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:29 PM

Maybe it's the same factory.

I'll have a look and compare the Comms. I think they are different (PS~JK).



#28 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:36 PM

You just don't get it.

My flat track has never "killed" a 4002FK. The car just doesn't go.

On 28 amps/12v, the other cars are affected.

On 200 amps/13.1v, they aren't.

But on the heavy-wired King, they either, pop( sometimes with a tiny bit of smoke) and still run fine, they pop and run at about 80%, or the least common, they melt the endbell, like you showed, and IIRC, always on the back side.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#29 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:41 PM

Pop?



#30 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:11 AM

The noise from an electrical failure.

And your comment,"Yes, the motor could be OK-fast..."

You made that statement based on what? Experience with running an eliptical comm before?

You wonder why I've been less than polite in this exchange? You're making outrageous statements, with zero data to back them up.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#31 Zippity

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:14 AM

"the backside"?

 

Nearest the axle? North or South magnet?

 

(We wire our tracks with positive on the left hand braid in the direction of travel.)

 

:)



#32 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:33 AM

Towards the back of the car, like in the picture in post #1.

What I see as the positive on a stock 4002 FK.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#33 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:40 AM

The noise from an electrical failure.

And your comment,"Yes, the motor could be OK-fast..."

You made that statement based on what? Experience with running an eliptical comm before?

You wonder why I've been less than polite in this exchange? You're making outrageous statements, with zero data to back them up.

 

Mike, if you don't want to be polite don't participate in my thread. I haven't been rude to you.

 

Any comm that needs truing is by nature elliptical.

 

Have I had motors with a blown stack? Yes, they didn't run too bad, in fact I have considered running these in an FK F1 flat track car to stop the chattering axle bounce.

 

The theoretical motor as I described that may have a low point on the leading edge of a comm segment simply has a pole that's more retarded. Nothing stopping it being fast. It's possible the early stages of this exhibit push starting, and as the comm arcing in the course of running continues could create a build-up that eventually bridges two segments, causing the melting short? Who knows? I don't, thats why I have raised it and thats what I am trying to uncover.

 

I haven't made (m)any statements, only suggestions.



#34 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:03 AM

"That's not getting brush contact on one comm segment when it should - hence no short."

I clearly debunked that in post #21.

Dozens of times, on the low amp supply, a motor didn't start, and each time it affected the power on the other lanes.

IOW, opposite your theory, the brush is making contact.

If you can't figure out by my experiences running a raceway for 12 years, and using every version of a cheap Chinese motor for at least some length of time, that I'm certain the common denominator, is the heavy cogging neo magnets, accentuated by the small comm and tall brushes, there is nothing more I can add to this.

PS: Find a "push-start" 4002FK. Install a ceramic mag can on it. I guarantee the "problem" will go away.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#35 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:15 AM

I might also 'introduce' terribly awry brush hoods, and see if this makes for a push-start.

Have you tried the ceramic magnet thing? I went to install F7 magnets in one once but they're thicker and needed honing...



#36 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:25 AM

No, on the ceramic mag thing, but before the Hawk 6 and Proslot 4002FK, the only motors I've ever seen that need a push start are ones with a dead pole, or possibly ones with out of spec timing (50 degrees +).


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#37 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:30 AM

I might also 'introduce' terribly awry brush hoods, and see if this makes for a push-start.

 

Now you are thinking clearly.

With some of the dissected, failed motors, guys have commented, despite aligning the hoods, how out of whack the curvature of the brush face is.

Good night.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#38 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:19 AM

Well, I can understand that, I have seen it too, as the hoods typically are not snug fitting and the arm is pulling the brush face along with it as it rotates. Many of my old brushes are longer on one edge, until I started blueprinting the hoods.

Proving I can't leave a bone alone, I have no life, and four hands, I set about understanding exactly what is going on at the comm face

Attached images speak volumes - no short-circuit with new, well aligned brushes due to the cut off extreme edge.

But... no way getting around a short-circuit with 'run-in' ones though....

New unused:

ab97bea80260396cdc3795c3d4190f18.jpg


Well used

7326da14bbf6832d0a270b13ee7dbd42.jpg


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#39 Zippity

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:10 AM

Great photographs, Steve.


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#40 NSwanberg

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:19 AM

I think you may have the brush on the right reversed in the well used photo. The trailing edge of both brushes usually gets pulled around the commutator.


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#41 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:13 AM

NSwanberg, the brushes are not off that motor.
 
Indicative only, but makes the point, aye?
 
Neither set-up pics were perfect.

#42 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:37 AM

That comm is clearly an indicator of a curmudgeon. If I've never seen one before, and trust I haven't, that example is of one.
Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
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#43 Pablo

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:09 AM

Swodem may find my post #82 HERE of interest.
 
I'm no electrician, but I do know it does funny things sometimes.
 
electric shock2.jpg
 
The solution to the problem came to me at 2 in the morning:

- A clove of garlic tied to your controller handle with catgut.
- A sprig of parsley wrapped around the positive lead wire.

No more push-starts. :crazy:
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Paul Wolcott

#44 Richard G With

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:57 PM

I think Steve's picture tells the story, for what I've experienced anyway.

 

I recently pulled a car out of storage and hooked it up to a power supply to check it.

Initially, it wouldn't start at 5 volts and I observed black gummy deposits on the comm. Shot it with WD40 (not suggesting that as a tip, it was handy). Motor began working normally.

 

My conclusion in this case is that I'm over-oiling the comm bushing. Had similar problems with a car that I sent to Dallas. It never stopped, just ran slow.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#45 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:51 PM

I wouldn't put WD40 on the comm...



#46 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:09 PM

My conclusion in this case is that I'm over-oiling the comm bushing. Had similar problems with a car that I sent to Dallas. It never stopped, just ran slow.

 

When a motor is new, after oiling the pinion end, without resqueezing the bottle, I touch the end of the needle to the comm side, and let capillary action draw the tiny bit on the outside surface of the needle, to that junction of the shaft and bushing.

I might repeat, once a race, tops.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#47 Richard G With

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:56 PM

I wouldn't put WD40 on the comm...

 

WD40 is the fallback when duct tape won't do the job. IMHO.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#48 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:08 AM

Can't remember when I last put duct tape on my comm.   :dash2: :dash2:



#49 swodem

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:17 AM

Zip, when was the last time you even saw your armature? Hahahahaha.



#50 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:11 AM

I knew Zip was a curmudgeon.


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