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PS4002 meltdown


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#176 Samiam

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:30 AM

Hello......Dan? Dan Miller? You out there?


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#177 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:07 AM

Yep, unloaded. And 50,000 RPM isn't what I'm getting with my equipment Steve.. Nor are others. And remember, this number is at 6 volts.

 

ahhhhh 6V



#178 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 04:21 AM

lordandmastertoyou

1/ That really doesn't make sense. If you look here there is no C43 class as such unless you go to G12 etc, but then you wouldn't use that chassis anyway. http://nzsca.co.nz/rules/rulebook/

Dose your club go by the NZSCA rules but use a different chassis. If so what is stopping your club having a vote on it and adopting as local club rule if enough people wanted it. 

BTW. I had to google pertain to found out what it meant lol.

2/ yes I know. That's why I said.."when I say you I am meaning the people that make up the rules".

​3/ It doesn't matter. All I will say they were in the top 4. lol

4/ refer above. Don't know about the 1st part, but I do have a opinion on the 2nd part of that sentence.

5/ there is a big difference between filling the brushes to  "1 was to all the better copper hardware, 2 was to open up the endbell completely as in Can Do Anything". Why can't you put a remit forward for filling the brushes. Won't that tell you what the people want. It's slot car racing not america's cup racing after all. 

 

Lord, or Master, you choose but you cant have both

1. No we don't go by the NZSCA rules on everything, but we have followed it on PS4002 motor rules. Forget the C43 thing its not in the NZSCA rulebook yet. Its a chassis, this is a motor thread

2. Ask them then not me. 

3. Nothing more to say.

4. I can tell you with some authority from testing, '..it does not make the boat go faster..' if you owned a 4002 I would happily true it for you so you could experience the difference, but you don't so I can't.

5. If thats what you want for next year, submit a remit yourself via your club. I'm not trying to get cut brushes approved, I'm trying to find a solution to stop the problem at the start. Cut brushes are no good for enduros etc...



#179 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:39 AM

 
Yes, prevents the short. Nothing to do with the com being oval. 0.3 mm (that's what I've removed) won't change the way the brush follows the comm. 


Sure it will
Imagine it was only 1mm wide, would it be different then?


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#180 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:46 AM

[quote name="Trevor Neilson" post="673986" timestamp="1489877687"]...
4/  Have you ever trued up a comm that doesn't need a push start or has melted. You will probably find even a good one is out of round. Otherwise why would people say it makes a big difference. (I was standing right next to them when they were talking about it)
 [/quote][/quote]

Trev it was a good question.

So I grabbed a couple new ones, covered the com in black Vivid pen (Sharpie for you Northern Hemisphere followers) and set about taking a light skim

One was really good
The other has a low segment

511afc5b19206b65295157d25e9d0e6d.jpg

77b4e79c0ac8cdad6f759be468963bc8.jpg

16a2e9b7f97111a6bd9af37fd9092bb3.jpg

I suspect the closest arm above might have been a pushy, and the far one that was really good all around would have been a normal runner. Doesn't mean it would have been fast though...

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#181 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:17 AM

Steve check the TIR on those shafts.

Your vblock placement is not optimal
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#182 MSwiss

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:19 AM

You're truing the comms, supporting the arm in a different place on the pinion end, then it rides in the motor.

And then you're guessing, the slightly worse one, might of been a pusher.

You need to find a confirmed pusher,and while it is still running well, true the comm properly, and confirm it's fixed, of course, putting the arm back in the same motor.

If it somehow did, what would be your next move with your rules org?

Convince them to allow comm retruing when they won't even allow cut brushes?

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#183 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:57 AM

Sure it will
Imagine it was only 1mm wide, would it be different then?
 

 

Maybe, but it is not.


Because light travels faster than sound, some people appear to be bright until we hear them speaking.

#184 MSwiss

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:09 AM

Guillermo,
This is comical.

Comms untrue enough to create electrical issues, but just true enough to not slow the motor down.

Ignoring my statement that the fastest laps ever turned with a hardbody were turned by a motor that succumbed, to a push start, right after those record laps.

If his theory was true, then motor producers should go out of their way to true the comms eliptically.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

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#185 Fast Freddie

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

Steve, those arms in post #182 look like they were riding very low in the can.  I have never had an arm that had tracking that wide on any of these mini motors. There is usually a small clean ring on the comm. where the brushes don't make contact and you can use that to tell if the arm is riding high, low, or centered in the can.  By the way how did whoever raced this motor melt the hardware off the endbell?  Are you saying that the brushes, springs, and hardware got so hot that they caused the screws to lose their torque to the endbell and pull free, by spring pressure, releasing the hardware?  This happened without scorching or burning the hardware at all?  Where is the arm from that motor? If it's still in the motor it should be completely toasted and charred.   I've burnt arms before even 4002 arms and never once did the endbell get so hot that it melted the screw holes like that one.  It looks to me like you have an anomaly.  If you are saying this happened from a push start problem then it would seem the racer held the controller at full speed, without the car moving, until the motor smoked.  Even in that situation I can't imagine the hardware coming loose.  You are aware that the use of certain glues as a screw retainer can have an adverse effect on plastic endbells and could contribute to premature failure, softening the threads and causing the screws to release.  


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#186 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:42 PM

Guillermo,
This is comical.

Comms untrue enough to create electrical issues, but just true enough to not slow the motor down.

Ignoring my statement that the fastest laps ever turned with a hardbody were turned by a motor that succumbed, to a push start, right after those record laps.

If his theory was true, then motor producers should go out of their way to true the comms eliptically.

 

Swiss

You're grasping at straws to disprove my workings

1. its a sample of one

2. You're talking laps (theres more to  a fast lap than just a motor)

3. If your theory was true, then motor producers should go out of their way to make small comms and large brushes with overlaps and push-start motors that scream



#187 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:43 PM

 

Maybe, but it is not.

 

then you accept that the smaller it is the better it follows the comm, its just a matter of degree...



#188 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:49 PM

Steve, those arms in post #182 look like they were riding very low in the can.  I have never had an arm that had tracking that wide on any of these mini motors. There is usually a small clean ring on the comm. where the brushes don't make contact and you can use that to tell if the arm is riding high, low, or centered in the can.  By the way how did whoever raced this motor melt the hardware off the endbell?  Are you saying that the brushes, springs, and hardware got so hot that they caused the screws to lose their torque to the endbell and pull free, by spring pressure, releasing the hardware?  This happened without scorching or burning the hardware at all?  Where is the arm from that motor? If it's still in the motor it should be completely toasted and charred.   I've burnt arms before even 4002 arms and never once did the endbell get so hot that it melted the screw holes like that one.  It looks to me like you have an anomaly.  If you are saying this happened from a push start problem then it would seem the racer held the controller at full speed, without the car moving, until the motor smoked.  Even in that situation I can't imagine the hardware coming loose.  You are aware that the use of certain glues as a screw retainer can have an adverse effect on plastic endbells and could contribute to premature failure, softening the threads and causing the screws to release.  

 

FF you haven't been reading whats going on at all have you?

Yes the hardware gets so hot from the short, the screws melt the plastic thats holding them, look at the pictures I have posted in posts 79 and 148

Yes its because racers hold the power on when the car wont start for too long

 

And NO, the arm in post 182 was NEW and hadn't been raced or used. Any brush markings on the com were from factory, maybe QC testing?



#189 MSwiss

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:49 PM

Steve,
You just don't get it.

If all push starters were mediocre runners, your theory might hold water.

But they vary, with myself witnessing quite a few of them "knocking down the bank".

You don't knock down the bank with an out of true comm.

Sorry, but your theory has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. Lol

Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#190 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:00 PM

I assume 'Knocking down the bank' is a term meaning its fast

 

Remember this is a low RPM motor, its not a G7 or Eurosport Strap motor

 

Its not as affected by imperfection as motors like this

 

Obviously a push starter with the large brush short isn't affecting it either

 

If you put your cut brushes in one reducing its 'time on' (and its advance?? IDK if you cut both ends) you say your testing shows no performance decrease?



#191 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:05 PM

Steve check the TIR on those shafts.

Your vblock placement is not optimal

 

The TIR on those shafts doesn't matter, they are what they are. they're what the bushing is running on

 

The v-block placement was ok for the simple test being done. If the arm had been used and had solder on it then sure I would have taken the time to re-set it



#192 MSwiss

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:12 PM

Forget it.

 

You don't understand timing.

 

You don't understand how to cut a comm.

 

You ignore when holes are shot through your theory.

 

While I admire your great interest in what makes slot cars run, I'm not going to waste anymore time in this thread.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#193 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:13 PM

Forget it.

 

You don't understand timing.

 

You don't understand how to cut a comm.

 

You ignore when holes are shot through your theory.

 

While I admire your great interest in what makes slot cars run, I'm not going to waste anymore time in this thread.

 

seeya



#194 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:48 PM

Right, now that Penguin has departed back to the sewers any if you who are happy to share your thoughts or ideas with Batman feel free to post without fear of being chastised and derided


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#195 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:54 PM

 

Lord, or Master, you choose but you cant have both

 

Now you have hurt my feelings. lol.

Just saying as a club and if the melt downs are a problem there would be nothing stopping changing the motor rule to suit your club (just like you have done with the chassis rule) .Unless people are happy melting motors and controllers (1?)  

If the comm are out of true and causing the problem  then it would be quite a hard fix for the average  racer to do as the seal of the motor can not be broken.

BTW   .filling out the holes in brush holder to get a couple of extra degrees out of the timing, can that be claimed as deburring  lol



#196 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:59 PM

Sensitive One
We are in the throes of aligning the rules all to be the same not breaking away and having different rules for different clubs
If you read my post earlier I said I was trying to come up with a cheap and easy way to do this
No, hardware cannot be modified.


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#197 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:12 PM

But I thought trimmed bushes fixed the problem or did I get that wrong. . Can't get cheaper or easier than that. Or don't you think a out of round comm is the problem. 



#198 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:18 PM

 

then you accept that the smaller it is the better it follows the comm, its just a matter of degree...

 

Well, it it was as thin as a shaving blade it will follow it almost perfectly but 0.3 mm in a 3.2 mm wide brush I would have no noticeable effect in how the brush follows a non cylindrical com.

 

If the problem is the short, an uneven com will reduce the likelihood of it because a lifted brush will not make contact in two segments simultaneously.

 

Drawing_zpsg4vtqnxe.jpg


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Because light travels faster than sound, some people appear to be bright until we hear them speaking.

#199 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:28 PM

Also. What about holding the motor shaft and twisting the comm to change the timing. . Is that legal or not under the rules..To be honest it is very hard to tell if the brush hoods have been moved (as long as the screw head covers the hole).  if it is only 1 or 2 degrees. The only way is to remove them and check the size of the holes. 

I'm not saying anyone is doing this BTW



#200 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:33 PM

But I thought trimmed bushes fixed the problem or did I get that wrong. . Can't get cheaper or easier than that. Or don't you think a out of round comm is the problem. 


They might alleviate it temporarily but once worn down again...
Rather find a better solution...


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