Hello......Dan? Dan Miller? You out there?
PS4002 meltdown
#176
Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:30 AM
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
George W. Bush
#177
Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:07 AM
Yep, unloaded. And 50,000 RPM isn't what I'm getting with my equipment Steve.. Nor are others. And remember, this number is at 6 volts.
ahhhhh 6V
Steve Meadows
#178
Posted 19 March 2017 - 04:21 AM
lordandmastertoyou
1/ That really doesn't make sense. If you look here there is no C43 class as such unless you go to G12 etc, but then you wouldn't use that chassis anyway. http://nzsca.co.nz/rules/rulebook/
Dose your club go by the NZSCA rules but use a different chassis. If so what is stopping your club having a vote on it and adopting as local club rule if enough people wanted it.
BTW. I had to google pertain to found out what it meant lol.
2/ yes I know. That's why I said.."when I say you I am meaning the people that make up the rules".
3/ It doesn't matter. All I will say they were in the top 4. lol
4/ refer above. Don't know about the 1st part, but I do have a opinion on the 2nd part of that sentence.
5/ there is a big difference between filling the brushes to "1 was to all the better copper hardware, 2 was to open up the endbell completely as in Can Do Anything". Why can't you put a remit forward for filling the brushes. Won't that tell you what the people want. It's slot car racing not america's cup racing after all.
Lord, or Master, you choose but you cant have both
1. No we don't go by the NZSCA rules on everything, but we have followed it on PS4002 motor rules. Forget the C43 thing its not in the NZSCA rulebook yet. Its a chassis, this is a motor thread
2. Ask them then not me.
3. Nothing more to say.
4. I can tell you with some authority from testing, '..it does not make the boat go faster..' if you owned a 4002 I would happily true it for you so you could experience the difference, but you don't so I can't.
5. If thats what you want for next year, submit a remit yourself via your club. I'm not trying to get cut brushes approved, I'm trying to find a solution to stop the problem at the start. Cut brushes are no good for enduros etc...
Steve Meadows
#179
Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:39 AM
Yes, prevents the short. Nothing to do with the com being oval. 0.3 mm (that's what I've removed) won't change the way the brush follows the comm.
Sure it will
Imagine it was only 1mm wide, would it be different then?
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Steve Meadows
#180
Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:46 AM
4/ Have you ever trued up a comm that doesn't need a push start or has melted. You will probably find even a good one is out of round. Otherwise why would people say it makes a big difference. (I was standing right next to them when they were talking about it)
[/quote][/quote]
Trev it was a good question.
So I grabbed a couple new ones, covered the com in black Vivid pen (Sharpie for you Northern Hemisphere followers) and set about taking a light skim
One was really good
The other has a low segment
I suspect the closest arm above might have been a pushy, and the far one that was really good all around would have been a normal runner. Doesn't mean it would have been fast though...
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Steve Meadows
#181
Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:17 AM
Your vblock placement is not optimal
#182
Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:19 AM
And then you're guessing, the slightly worse one, might of been a pusher.
You need to find a confirmed pusher,and while it is still running well, true the comm properly, and confirm it's fixed, of course, putting the arm back in the same motor.
If it somehow did, what would be your next move with your rules org?
Convince them to allow comm retruing when they won't even allow cut brushes?
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#183
Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:57 AM
Sure it will
Imagine it was only 1mm wide, would it be different then?
Maybe, but it is not.
Because light travels faster than sound, some people appear to be bright until we hear them speaking.
#184
Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:09 AM
This is comical.
Comms untrue enough to create electrical issues, but just true enough to not slow the motor down.
Ignoring my statement that the fastest laps ever turned with a hardbody were turned by a motor that succumbed, to a push start, right after those record laps.
If his theory was true, then motor producers should go out of their way to true the comms eliptically.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#185
Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:46 AM
Steve, those arms in post #182 look like they were riding very low in the can. I have never had an arm that had tracking that wide on any of these mini motors. There is usually a small clean ring on the comm. where the brushes don't make contact and you can use that to tell if the arm is riding high, low, or centered in the can. By the way how did whoever raced this motor melt the hardware off the endbell? Are you saying that the brushes, springs, and hardware got so hot that they caused the screws to lose their torque to the endbell and pull free, by spring pressure, releasing the hardware? This happened without scorching or burning the hardware at all? Where is the arm from that motor? If it's still in the motor it should be completely toasted and charred. I've burnt arms before even 4002 arms and never once did the endbell get so hot that it melted the screw holes like that one. It looks to me like you have an anomaly. If you are saying this happened from a push start problem then it would seem the racer held the controller at full speed, without the car moving, until the motor smoked. Even in that situation I can't imagine the hardware coming loose. You are aware that the use of certain glues as a screw retainer can have an adverse effect on plastic endbells and could contribute to premature failure, softening the threads and causing the screws to release.
#186
Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:42 PM
Guillermo,
This is comical.
Comms untrue enough to create electrical issues, but just true enough to not slow the motor down.
Ignoring my statement that the fastest laps ever turned with a hardbody were turned by a motor that succumbed, to a push start, right after those record laps.
If his theory was true, then motor producers should go out of their way to true the comms eliptically.
Swiss
You're grasping at straws to disprove my workings
1. its a sample of one
2. You're talking laps (theres more to a fast lap than just a motor)
3. If your theory was true, then motor producers should go out of their way to make small comms and large brushes with overlaps and push-start motors that scream
Steve Meadows
#187
Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:43 PM
Maybe, but it is not.
then you accept that the smaller it is the better it follows the comm, its just a matter of degree...
Steve Meadows
#188
Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:49 PM
Steve, those arms in post #182 look like they were riding very low in the can. I have never had an arm that had tracking that wide on any of these mini motors. There is usually a small clean ring on the comm. where the brushes don't make contact and you can use that to tell if the arm is riding high, low, or centered in the can. By the way how did whoever raced this motor melt the hardware off the endbell? Are you saying that the brushes, springs, and hardware got so hot that they caused the screws to lose their torque to the endbell and pull free, by spring pressure, releasing the hardware? This happened without scorching or burning the hardware at all? Where is the arm from that motor? If it's still in the motor it should be completely toasted and charred. I've burnt arms before even 4002 arms and never once did the endbell get so hot that it melted the screw holes like that one. It looks to me like you have an anomaly. If you are saying this happened from a push start problem then it would seem the racer held the controller at full speed, without the car moving, until the motor smoked. Even in that situation I can't imagine the hardware coming loose. You are aware that the use of certain glues as a screw retainer can have an adverse effect on plastic endbells and could contribute to premature failure, softening the threads and causing the screws to release.
FF you haven't been reading whats going on at all have you?
Yes the hardware gets so hot from the short, the screws melt the plastic thats holding them, look at the pictures I have posted in posts 79 and 148
Yes its because racers hold the power on when the car wont start for too long
And NO, the arm in post 182 was NEW and hadn't been raced or used. Any brush markings on the com were from factory, maybe QC testing?
Steve Meadows
#189
Posted 19 March 2017 - 12:49 PM
You just don't get it.
If all push starters were mediocre runners, your theory might hold water.
But they vary, with myself witnessing quite a few of them "knocking down the bank".
You don't knock down the bank with an out of true comm.
Sorry, but your theory has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. Lol
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#190
Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:00 PM
I assume 'Knocking down the bank' is a term meaning its fast
Remember this is a low RPM motor, its not a G7 or Eurosport Strap motor
Its not as affected by imperfection as motors like this
Obviously a push starter with the large brush short isn't affecting it either
If you put your cut brushes in one reducing its 'time on' (and its advance?? IDK if you cut both ends) you say your testing shows no performance decrease?
Steve Meadows
#191
Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:05 PM
Steve check the TIR on those shafts.
Your vblock placement is not optimal
The TIR on those shafts doesn't matter, they are what they are. they're what the bushing is running on
The v-block placement was ok for the simple test being done. If the arm had been used and had solder on it then sure I would have taken the time to re-set it
Steve Meadows
#192
Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:12 PM
Forget it.
You don't understand timing.
You don't understand how to cut a comm.
You ignore when holes are shot through your theory.
While I admire your great interest in what makes slot cars run, I'm not going to waste anymore time in this thread.
- swodem likes this
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#193
Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:13 PM
Forget it.
You don't understand timing.
You don't understand how to cut a comm.
You ignore when holes are shot through your theory.
While I admire your great interest in what makes slot cars run, I'm not going to waste anymore time in this thread.
seeya
Steve Meadows
#194
Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:48 PM
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Steve Meadows
#195
Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:54 PM
Lord, or Master, you choose but you cant have both
Now you have hurt my feelings. lol.
Just saying as a club and if the melt downs are a problem there would be nothing stopping changing the motor rule to suit your club (just like you have done with the chassis rule) .Unless people are happy melting motors and controllers (1?)
If the comm are out of true and causing the problem then it would be quite a hard fix for the average racer to do as the seal of the motor can not be broken.
BTW .filling out the holes in brush holder to get a couple of extra degrees out of the timing, can that be claimed as deburring lol
#196
Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:59 PM
We are in the throes of aligning the rules all to be the same not breaking away and having different rules for different clubs
If you read my post earlier I said I was trying to come up with a cheap and easy way to do this
No, hardware cannot be modified.
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Steve Meadows
#197
Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:12 PM
But I thought trimmed bushes fixed the problem or did I get that wrong. . Can't get cheaper or easier than that. Or don't you think a out of round comm is the problem.
#198
Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:18 PM
then you accept that the smaller it is the better it follows the comm, its just a matter of degree...
Well, it it was as thin as a shaving blade it will follow it almost perfectly but 0.3 mm in a 3.2 mm wide brush I would have no noticeable effect in how the brush follows a non cylindrical com.
If the problem is the short, an uneven com will reduce the likelihood of it because a lifted brush will not make contact in two segments simultaneously.
- tonyp and Allan Tucker - WSCC like this
Because light travels faster than sound, some people appear to be bright until we hear them speaking.
#199
Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:28 PM
Also. What about holding the motor shaft and twisting the comm to change the timing. . Is that legal or not under the rules..To be honest it is very hard to tell if the brush hoods have been moved (as long as the screw head covers the hole). if it is only 1 or 2 degrees. The only way is to remove them and check the size of the holes.
I'm not saying anyone is doing this BTW
#200
Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:33 PM
But I thought trimmed bushes fixed the problem or did I get that wrong. . Can't get cheaper or easier than that. Or don't you think a out of round comm is the problem.
They might alleviate it temporarily but once worn down again...
Rather find a better solution...
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Steve Meadows