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Hand-out motors at major races


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#26 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:52 PM

I have to disagree. When the fun goes away, so do the racers. The track owner sets the tone and atmosphere accordingly. We have fun at our track. We encourage new racers to advance and sharpen their driving skills. I can tell you, if our track falls out of the fun zone, the doors will close.
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#27 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:53 PM

One thing I really appreciate about SCRRA is that racers do have a voice and not just the first string players.  

So, this was an experiment revisited and it went off well. With eight top qualifiers of 4 second fast laps or better, 14 racers in the 4.1s plus  the 14 lowest qualifiers is a good spread of entries. 

There is still plenty of choices of racing a Buena Park and other tracks.  If not Retro Can-Am, then there’s hardbodies, Womps, LMP and Wing racing.

So the hand-out format is a very small slice of the big pie. Out of the three major events, if one of these is set aside to do this, it’s at least an invitation for visitors near and far to have a chance for glory.
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#28 MSwiss

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:06 PM

The whole premise behind 'race' is it declares a winner; I want to be that guy. And I'll never understand anybody that says they don't care where they finish; they just want to have fun.


Talk about thread drift (started by Cheater - LOL)

Trying to dictate/suggest what one's end game should be from racing slot cars.

But I do disagree with gfox on everyone caring where they finish.

Dave Borntrager once told me with a straight face that he raced slot cars "for the art." I don't remember if that was before or after he finished second to me at the '88 World's and USRA Nats. LOL.
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Mike Swiss
 
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#29 Cheater

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:15 PM

The famous coach Herm Edwards said "You play to win the game." That is why we race.

 

The whole premise behind 'race' is it declares a winner; I want to be that guy.


And just exactly how does the hand-out motor format make it completely impossible for either of you to "win the game" or to be that winning "guy"?

Not going to bother to dredge up the quotes, but I know you have said numerous times, Noose, that same small bunch of racers will be the podium regulars in hand-out races as in non-hand-out races. And I agree that seems to be the case. If we agree on that premise, doesn't that fact suggest that hand-out motors don't actually have a notably negative impact on the racing?
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#30 Cheater

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:19 PM

Talk about thread drift (started by Cheater - LOL)


Guilty as charged.

I told you guys I was pretty grumpy today, after nearly three days and about four hours on hold trying to get my damn health insurance company to make a very minor change to my policy info.
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#31 Wizard16

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:20 PM

It is a hobby - Webster's Dictionary: "a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation." I enjoy working on the cars, building chassis, and trying to improve. I don't have to prove anything to anyone or to myself. Been there and done that. If your philosophy about "playing" to win was rampant then you'd be lucky to get 10 racers. Very shortsighted IMO. Quote Vince Lombardi if you want a win quote. Herm Edwards was losing short career coach.
 
On the flip side I'll never understand someone who has to win at toy cars. Why doesn't the IRRA® promulgate rules for an IROC race class? Everyone runs each car on each lane. Matters not what motor, chassis, tires, etc., it's all about the driver. You lose, it's all on you. 

 

In another vein, you want real competition then do things where there is an actual consequence of failure. 
 
They write cartoons about people who say do it my way or I'll take my ball and go home. Sheesh.


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Diana Dyckman

#32 Noose

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:20 PM

Yes, I have said that and it has also been said why make it harder than it has to be. 

If there are cheaters, no pun intended, then ban them. Plain and simple. Let others prepare properly. Not have to succumb to a ridiculous timeline when it is well known these motors take time to break in. I'm cracking up over the water break-in pics shown and yes, I have done it, too. Now if they were in the package one might turn it over and see that it says do not water break-in as it shortens the life of the motor. Ahh, what the heck for it right.
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#33 Noose

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:26 PM

Diana:

Winning is also what people want it to be to them. The person who never made it out of the E Mains before wins the C main and is in his/her glory for that. 

What is important is that they had a chance to do so within the rules which BTW, for the IRRA®, have been pretty damn good for 10+ years. Taking unnecessary actions by going to more hand-outs creating more of a burden and thus taking the fun out of it for some is not what it is about.


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#34 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:27 PM

Why doesn't the IRRA® promulgate rules for an IROC race class? Everyone runs each car on each lane. Matters not what motor, chassis, tires, etc., it's all about the driver. You lose, it's all on you.

 
IROC racing rocks. Rare to find them. Enduro races, yet another venue hard to find these days.


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#35 Cheater

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:44 PM

Taking unnecessary actions by going to more hand-outs creating more of a burden and thus taking the fun out of it for some is not what it is about.


And others may in fact feel that hand-outs add more fun into it. Who's to say whose opinion is undeniably right?
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#36 Noose

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:46 PM

No one. Entry levels do. Added costs too on having to buy more motors.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#37 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:57 PM

The case for hand-outs can be made by the fact that the tech table doesn't have to bring out the can gauge to see if there are collapsed motor cases. No need to carefully examine the endbell tabs or any other dark secrets associated with tampering.

While numbering and registering the motors adds to the burden, there is far less drama at tech in. Everyone knows these are legit motors.


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-Mark

#38 Wizard16

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:59 PM

Good point, Noose, that the definition of fun for some people is not fun for others.

 

However, I disagree that taking the hand-out action is unnecessary. There is a perception that the 7R7R7R7R motors are slower than the R motors. Perception is reality. I have yet to find a 7R7R7R7R motor that is as fast as my top 4 R motors and I've bought a lot of motors. And my fast R motors are not as fast as some of the others I've run against.

 

I would not have had a problem with only 7R7R7R7R being legal and you could bring your own. But that would force people to buy motors and increase costs.


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#39 bbr

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:00 PM

I run Retro 1/24 for fun. If I want to win I run 1/32 or HO. In 1/32 and HO I seem to have more talent and expertise, LOL.

I don't see myself on the A Main podium of a Retro race, but yet I like running on the BPR King the most.
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#40 Noose

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:02 PM

The recent race data we see does not agree with that. I have posted these results too and have shared data with Tim from JK.  More 7Rs are on the podium these days. 

 

These same people with 7Rs are now being forced to buy them as hand-outs, increasing the cost to attend the race and then be limited in prep time.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#41 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:10 PM

The recent race data we see does not agree with that. I have posted these results too and have shared data with Tim from JK.  More 7Rs are on the podium these days. 

 

These same people with 7Rs are now being forced to buy them as hand-outs, increasing the cost to attend the race and then be limited in prep time.

 

So... once a year race. That big of a sacrifice?


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-Mark

#42 Noose

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:14 PM

I run in more than once a year major race. Four to five a year for me. Yes, it's a big PITA that does not need to be there. 

 

Might also be since I also do a lot of other work at these and already sacrifice enough time to get that stuff done. 


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#43 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:26 PM

I would be the last to say anything about any particular group of racers as being linked with cheating. But... knowing human nature and weaknesses to be tempted, I like the idea of keeping honest racers honest. 

 

Another case for hand-out format. The notion that cheating is non-existent is to be in denial. 


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#44 Jeff Bonanno

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:26 PM

I agree with what Noose says especially for premier events as far as hand-outs are concerned.

 

Maybe make GT Coupes hand-outs since they are similar to Can-Am. Just a thought.



#45 MSwiss

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:30 PM

On the flip side I'll never understand someone who has to win at toy cars. Why doesn't the IRRA® promulgate rules for an IROC race class? Everyone runs each car on each lane. Matters not what motor, chassis, tires, etc., it's all about the driver. You lose, it's all on you. 

 

Part 1:

 

Along with most Premier events not having much extra downtime to hold such a race, cost and time.

 

Who is going to pony up $2,000(?) for 12(?) cars, along with spending the time to maintain them?

 

Since the IRRA® doesn't actually collect any money to maintain a website, along with the "honor" of getting second-guessed here on Slotblog, and getting verbally abused on Facebook, I don't see us doing it. LOL.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#46 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:43 PM

How about some beater cars :crazy: ?  There's enough scrap parts to put together a junkyard race easily. I could get into it.
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#47 Noose

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:44 PM

Maybe make GT Coupes hand-outs since they are similar to Can-Am. Just a thought.


Jeff, at IRRA® Premier races the GTC classes(s) are hand-outs. It was done to help the raceway and the manufacturer. 

 

The class is split to GTC-FK and GTC-Pro. You race in GTC-FK unless you make the "List" which means you won the GTC-FK race or made a podium in Can-Am or F1 at a Premier race.


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#48 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:48 PM

Between the guys at my local track, we could put together some beater cars for an IROC race. Another thread for that!
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#49 Wizard16

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 03:22 PM

Mike,

Basically a nothing comment to emphasize that there are many ways to define competition. I was trying to indicate that removing all the variables would be the purest competition. I tried to start a Retro IROC in South Texas. I built four cars on my dime - no interest. One can surmise many reasons but my guess is that some people want the chance for the "unfair" advantage.
 
Mark, the Zimmerman and the Boola may have time for another class. That would be classic! You'd be able to see who was fastest in what lane very easily. You don't have to have identical cars because, as you know, they stay in only one lane. Make it a one and done format. Everyone has to qualify with the same car with no practice.
Diana Dyckman

#50 Mark Wampler

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 03:26 PM

Diana, 

Thanks. I only attended one IROC race at BP. That was put on by Team Zombie, the "Jeffs." It was called the Crazy 8s. All NASCAR rides on the Flat track. It was a hoot.
 
I think another thread should be opened.
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