59 replies to this topic

[dc-65x]

I just finished cleaning up an armature and I'm thinking about building an appropriate motor and car to "see it move". I'm not talking about running it into the ground, I just like to see how the old period cars used to GO! So, here's what I have:











OK, it's a Rocket S25. It measures .2 ohms and seems to be in good shape except for this corrosion on the shaft where it will ride in the bearing. I'm thinking I could use a ball bearing to ease the shaft's pain. I was also thinking about securing the shaft to the ball bearing with a dab of Loctite. That way the pitted shaft is locked to the ball bearing and the bearing is doing the work. Any opinions about doing this



I did a search and found this about Rocket by Jim Honeycutt:

Might be a Rocket armature from Linstedt/Wittenaur. They were epoxying & tying for really hot power on the Midwest tracks. The arms were practically indestructible, but sluggish on mild power.

So can anyone help me with:

A time period for this arm (early to mid-'70s???)
Did Rocket make complete motors?
What type of setup would this arm have been used in? Mura two-hole C-can?

Any info would be much appreciated.

[Jairus]

Beautiful arm, Rick! Can I have it?

Actually, not to knock that very nice piece of vintage history, John Havlicek can make a twin in his sleep now... so there is no need to burn up a historic piece any longer.

Unless I miss my guess... now we only need to teach him to make the "bubble gum" epoxy and we are SET!

[Bill from NH]

Rick,

Here's my take on Rocket. I bought two arms in 1971 from Dick Wittenaur of Pee Wee Valley, KY, a 24S and a 25S of unknown turns on Champion blanks.

By that time they had split up the partnership and went their separate ways. I don't know exactly when they started Rocket but Jan Linstedt was winding arms up here in CT during the late '60s. So early to mid-'70s is a good guess.

The 25S was the fastest arm I owned on a King track until I found the Bill Steube Sr. arms at Speed & Sport. I don't believe Rocket ever sold complete motors, at least not to the general public. I know Jan raced but I don't know whether Dick ever did.

Since this is an East Coast arm, it's more than likely it was set up in a Champion cCcan rather than a Mura Green can. That's what I used, as did several CT pros such as Russ Boyington.

As an aside, Dick Wittenaur built the electronic balancing machine they used. When he built a second, supposedly better, machine, the first was sold to Joel who still uses it to this day. It'd be interesting to find out whatever happened to the second balancer.

[dc-65x]

Since this is an East Coast arm, it's more than likely it was set up in a Champion C-can rather than a Mura Green can.

Arg... I like the Champion C-cans but they are so hard to find...

Thanks for the info, Bill.

[dc-65x]

Oops. I didn't scroll up far enough.

Hi Jairus,

Yes, John does a beautiful wind on an armature and we are lucky to have his help in our hobby . Thanks, John!

When I find an old armature like this Rocket, I can't help but wonder "how did this thing run back in the day?" I guess I wonder that about all my vintage projects and that's why I keep having fun building them and seeing them GO!

[68Caddy]

dc-65x,

Love those old armatures, can I have one? Just kidding.

Wonder how fast they were? I hope you will compare it to what we have today.
BTW I don't think it will kill the hobby.

More pics, assy in a chassis, with lap times would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Respect (WEI),

Nesta aka 68Caddy

[Hworth08]

... in good shape except for this corrosion on the shaft where it will ride in the bearing. I'm thinking I could use a ball bearing to ease the shaft's pain. I was also thinking about securing the shaft to the ball bearing with a dab of Loctite. That way the pitted shaft is locked to the ball bearing and the bearing is doing the work. Any opinions

Maybe build up the shaft with silver bearing solder to a "tap-in" fit in a ball bearing?

[havlicek]

I don't know anything about the history of all the beautiful vintage pieces I see posted about here, but to me that is a beautiful piece of horsepower... vintage or not... and whoever did the work sure as heck did it right from the looks of it, Rick. To me... a Cosworth is just as beautiful as a blown "Rat" motor; I think what you got there is closer to the "Rat". It looks like it's timed way up there!

It looks to me that the pitting might not be much of a functional problem since the arm will be riding on the still-there high spots, but that running it in bearings should make what's left wear longer since the bearing race should be doing the turning. If the shaft still mikes at or close to spec (comparing to the not-pitted spots) it should run just fine for a limited amount of actual track time. I suppose that silver-soldering the pitting might help, but that getting the solder to really flow into the pits means using acid and I wouldn't want to do that if it were mine. Then there's the heat involved with soldering... no way to know how even "getting in and out fast" with the heat will affect the arm.

It measures .2 ohms

... all my so-far "favorite" winds come in right at .2 ohms. The "83" (the seeming best of the #23s I've done) I posted about in the Scratchbuilding forum is one of them. Thanks to both you and Jairus for the props, too.

[Edo]

... I like the Champion C-cans but they are so hard to find...

Captain,

Is this a Champion C-can?







E

[dc-65x]

John,

I tried a ball bearing on the shaft and you're right, it should work fine. Thanks.

Edo,

That's the more common later version Champion C-can, second generation I think. It is thin-walled, and draw-formed in one fell swoop over a die as opposed to folded over a die and spot-welded together. It has been said that they were not used for serious motors.

I have a motor using a can like yours with "Pooch Plus 5" engraved on the heat sinks and a nice heavy gauge hand-wound armature so...

[Bill from NH]

Edo,

I think the early generation of Champion C-cans in .030" and .040" were made of a different steel than this second generation can. Since both early cans made good motors, builders were reluctant to try the new one.

Once those early cans were no longer available, the choices were the Mura Green (two-hole) can or this second generation Champion can. I built a couple motors using these second generation Champion cans (the endbells look good but are junk) and they made good motors. Even though they are drawn in one piece, the older welded cans are straighter.

[dc-65x]

Edo,

Here is a late Champion motor with the can and end bell like yours:





Here is the only NOS first generation, thick-walled and spot-welded Champion can I have on the left and a probably (hopefully!) Joel Montague-modified one on the right:



I've been saving these for some "Pooch Projects". Are we sure Rockets never came out West and snuggled inside Mura cans?

[Ron Hershman]

What could be in this old mailing box with a return address from Russ Boyington???



Why, it's a pile of "junk". My pal Rande "RPM" Marshall was a "Team Rocket" racer.



Here a few "early" Rocket arms in various winds. Note the thick spacer on the pinion end... a sign of the early arms.



A closer look at a old arm:



A couple of Steube arms:



A few Camen Pooch arms"



A Rocket Header card... REH purchased arms OEM from Rocket and repackaged them.



The bottom pic is of later Rocket arms.

[Jairus]

John, I hope you're taking notes here...

[dc-65x]

Wow, thanks, Ron .

What do you think about my Rocket arm? It has that thick spacer on the pinion end and the comm wrap looks kind of like the older arm you pictured... maybe... what do you think? I really want to put this arm in the correct era car and "see it move".

Thanks, again.

[Bill from NH]

Hey Ron,

Ask Rande if he ever ran the Rocket arms in a Mura set-up. If so, Rick will be able to sleep a lot better tonight.

Here in New England, possibly in the entire northeast, everybody ran Champion set-ups with Mura endbells. Those built by Boyington, La Bree, and Joel were the most popular along with the self-builts.

[Ron Hershman]

Rick...

Your Rocket arm looks good for sure. Should run fine in whatever you put it in. I would say the Champion set-ups would be more period correct. I am not sure without looking through notes, but I think the Rocket arms were out before any C-can was. Champion was the first C-can.

Bill...

Rande ran the Rockets in both Champion and Mura set-ups. Champions first... then Muras. Champion was the first C-can out (this from Mr Mura himself... Bob Green) and he had a connection through Bill Kennedy, a Team Champion racer at the time.

[Ron Hershman]

I think the early generation of Champion C-cans in .030" & .040" were made of a different steel than this second generation can.

Yes, there was different steel used. The deep-drawn cans used the better material, as they were made in Japan on very expensive tooling at the time. Bob Green claims the deep-drawn cans used the best metal ever in a C-can.

Yes, the Champion endbells and hardware were junk.

[Jairus]

Hmmmm someday Ron, you have to list all the necessary parts to build the BEST possible C-can vintage motor!

[Steve Okeefe]

Looks like I will be updating my "Pro Racing Motors" timeline...

Champion got their C-can on the market before Mura introduced theirs.

Thanks, Ron!

[havlicek]

John, I hope you're taking notes here...

... Sure am, Jairus.

[Ron Hershman]

More to add to your notebook...

The early Rockets were wound on Mura blanks.

Later Rockets were wound on both Mura and Champion blanks.

The longer Rockets, .500" or so stack length, were on Muras. The short Rockets, .440" or so, were wound on Champion blanks only.

Hotter winds were wound on Champion blanks only and milder winds were wound on Mura blanks.

Champion blanks were better, faster, and more reliable on hotter power than the Muras in the opinion of Mr. Rocket back in the day.

Joel... if you're snooping in... did Camen ever use the Champion blank???

[dc-65x]

Hi Ron,

Is there any other information or pictures I could provide you with that might help to date my armature? The rear spacer is like the one shown in your picture of an "early" Rocket arm and the insulation on the blank is a blue color.



If it is as early as 1969 then couldn't it have been used in a Champion 16D or even a Mura B motor?

Thanks in advance for your help dating this arm for a project car .

[Ron Hershman]

Is there any other information or pictures I could provide you with that might help to date my armature? The rear spacer is like the one shown in your picture of an "early" Rocket arm and the insulation on the blank is a blue color.

I wold say yours is on a Champion blank if the coating is blue... Mura used green coating.

Yes, it could have been as early as '69 and yes, it could have also been used in A, B, or D cans.

How long are the stacks and what diameter is the arm???

[dc-65x]

Thanks for your help, Ron.

I'll measure the arm and get back to you this afternoon.