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An FT36D is born


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 05:03 PM

...from an older 36D.  I have a couple of these older 36D motors, the ones with no can mounting option, and the blank rear end with no magnet stop tabs.  These ones use magnet stop "dimples" pressed into the rear of the can sides, and of course the end bells for these had the brushes riding directly on the plastic.  Less than optimal, even for the original mild winds these things had...much less the likes of the later "3V" arms from (I think) Classic.  To make matters worse, the ball-bushing was gone.

 

IMG_2001_zpsstpake7b.jpg

So what's a poor-boy gonna do?  Hey...no problem.  I know a guy who can make up gizmos, gadgets and thingamabobs!  So I removed the original rotating bushing carrier and had at it.  I made up a solid bushing adapter, this time one that would sit flush to the inside of the can for as much room down there as possible, and on the outside would include a groove for C-clip mounting.

To fit inside that, I needed a bushing for the weird size shaft these motors use.  I took a worn 6MM x 2MM Mura oilite bushing which was too sloppy to work on a 2MM shaft and reamed it out to fit the FT36D shaft.  I also thinned-out the very thick flange, and epoxied it "flange-side-out"...just because it made truing the bushing to the rest of the motor a little less fidgety.  Because I'm paranoid, I made sure the new oilite isn't going anywhere.  Now, instead of sloppy, it's a lovely close-but-not-binding fit..  I just had to clean up some of the solder that found it's way to the outside, and the look is pretty "factory".
 

IMG_2002_zpsouzrh4h0.jpg

Inside, this all sits flush...actually ever-so-slightly less than flush.  I love it when a plan comes together! :D

IMG_2003_zpso5hsjy4a.jpg

Of course, the best part is how smooth an arm spins in the setup.  After a while doing these things, there's a certain looseness to even an NOS Mabuchi...especially the big boys, with all that rotating mass.  You spin this arm and it feels like a proper slot car motor.  Watta concept!

Now I'll have to look at this thing and let it tell me where it wants to go, but I have a nice new end bell and am confident it will be a smooth motor that will benefit from this detail.  A bit of prep work and I can send this can over to "the paint shop"   :D


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John Havlicek




#2 Bill from NH

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 05:59 PM

One alternative that might come in handy in the future, would be to keep a length of bearing bronze rod around & turn whatever you want, when needed. Mine came from KY or OH, but OnlineMetals.com sells both solid & hollow rod of it by the foot.


Bill Fernald

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#3 havlicek

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 06:57 PM

Yep, bearing bronze is a *possible* way to go, but people need to be meticulous about oiling that stuff, so it's less desireable.  I also looked at oilite rod, and that's ridiculously costly and would only be a last resort, so neither is really on my radar Bill.


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#4 Bill from NH

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 07:17 PM

I've never had a problem remembering to oil slot car motors. It might not be the "ideal" motor bearing material, but it works.


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#5 havlicek

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 07:43 PM

I've never had a problem remembering to oil slot car motors. It might not be the "ideal" motor bearing material, but it works.

 

Well, if I were sending all my motors to you Bill, then it would be fine :)  Over and under oiling motors is a common issue.  With solid bronze bearings, it becomes even more critical.  


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John Havlicek

#6 Geary Carrier

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:36 AM

Hi John,

 

What kind of reamer did you use on the oilite bushing?

 

I imagine it would be easy to smear the walls of the new hole which would  block the flow of oil to the motor shaft.

 

 

Thanks,

g


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#7 havlicek

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 06:43 AM

Hi John,

 

What kind of reamer did you use on the oilite bushing?

 

I imagine it would be easy to smear the walls of the new hole which would  block the flow of oil to the motor shaft.

 

 

Thanks,

g

 

Hi Geary,

 

     It's actually not a reamer at all!  I have several reamers I got for opening up coms for the larger shaft, and even though they "should" be the right size, they are still a smidge too small.  I found a diamond burr in my "pile-o-stuff" that's exactly the right size.  I drilled the bushing close and then finished it off with the burr.  Fits perfectly!


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John Havlicek

#8 Geary Carrier

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 02:44 PM

Thank you John,

 

g


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Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#9 havlicek

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Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:12 PM

You're welcome Geary.  I got tired of ordering reams (oversize/undersize) and luckily the bur worked beautifully.  Actually, it works even better chucked in the lathe!


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John Havlicek

#10 havlicek

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 08:29 PM

Back on this build, I got in the color today so I layed some paint down.  This time it's one of the VHT "anodized" colors, specifically blue.  They also make a red and a purple, and like their other high temp coatings, it's rated for intermittent temps up to 550F.  This stuff is very cool.  It's really a transparent coating that, when applied over shiny metal does result in a unique finish that looks a lot like anodized metal.  It's very high gloss and the finished coating seems durable.  It sprays differently from both the other solid VHT colors as well as most rattle-can paints.  A light coat is almost "not there", so you have to not be so timid and worry about runs...you need to really lay this stuff on there.  After I figured out what was going on, I took a deep breath and went for it.  When I say the stuff is transparent, I'm not kidding and any even minor flaws on the base metal will show.  Even so, it's a unique, and very attractive look for a slot car motor!IMG_2005%20copy_zpsej74naef.jpg

 

This old girl has come a long way from this:

IMG_2001_zpsstpake7b.jpg

 

-john

 


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#11 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 10:08 PM

She looks good in that blue party dress.


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#12 havlicek

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 07:13 AM

Thanks Eddie!


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#13 Kim Lander

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 04:34 PM

Man that blue looks good.


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#14 havlicek

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 05:21 PM

Thanks Kim...I like the color too!  More on this, the request here was for "TORQUE", so I did my super-secret, extra-special, "stump-puller" wind, leaving the stack full-length...minus the fiber end-spacers of course.  The arm is "dual-shaft", so the motor can go either end bell or can drive.

IMG_2006_zpszemjyirj.jpg

 

Now I have some shims to fab-up after I check to see how much I can close-up the hole, then it's on to end bell work.


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#15 olescratch

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 05:58 PM

That is just one awesome paint job!  Really a brand of paint to give a try.  What's the super torque wind?


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John Stewart

#16 havlicek

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 06:15 PM

Thanks John.  On the wind, all I can say is that it's a #28awg wind.  Guys Like Mike Swiss have actually figured out the winds when I've said what gauge wire I used...but I'm sworn to secrecy.

 

-john


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#17 Samiam

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 07:03 PM

John,

 

That arm loaded in that cool blue can is 'da bomb. :bomb: 

 

You laid those winds down so neat I'm going to try counting the turns. I'll PM my guess.


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#18 Half Fast

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 08:20 PM

That ought to keep you occupied Sam. Remember to take you shoes off so you won't lose track. :)

 

Cheers


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#19 havlicek

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 08:56 PM

Sam was off...by quite a wide margin!


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#20 Samiam

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 09:08 PM

I ran out of toes. :wacko2:


Sam Levitch
 
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Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#21 olescratch

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 01:01 AM

I finally asked a question that you wouldn't answer lol!  So there are still "some" secrets in the mix!  Thanks for the answers that you have given, looking forward to some more do-dads from ya.


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John Stewart

#22 havlicek

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 07:01 AM

Hi John,

 

     You know, a LOT of this stuff is a little strange.  Many of these winds are based on arbitrary and often old specs.  When I say "arbitrary", I mean that I sometimes wonder where they came from.  65-70 turns of #30 wire is fine, but you can over and under that for different reasons and on different armatures.  50T of #29...same thing.  38T of #27...again, same thing.  Then too, these winds are often used on wildly varying stack sizes and lengths.  There was a time way back when, that "people" (  :D  ) would just pick a wire gauge and shmoosh as much of that size wire on an armature as they could to come up with a "hot rewind".  I'm guilty of all of that, but my scope has narrowed a little over time seeing how these things work...or don't work.  ***Of course I understand that, if a motor MUST have a certain wind because someone asks for that wind or because there's a "spec", then you gotta do what you gotta do.  When that isn't the case, then you have a LOT of leeway in choosing a wind.


John Havlicek

#23 wbugenis

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 08:09 AM

John,

 

I'm counting seven layers of wire. Top layer has 5 turns.

 

In a pure "log stacking" wind, this will give a 56 turns  (5 turns + 6t + 7t + 8t + 9t + 10t + 11t = 56 turns).

 

Is this what you were aiming for?

 

Also can you say a little on how you do the transition from one layer to the next?

 

Bill


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William Bugenis

#24 havlicek

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 08:48 AM

Hi Bill,

 

     You're VERY close, so I'll say you got it!  I'll be happy to talk about the transitions (*or what I call "turnarounds").  I have to head out for work right now and will hit this when I get back.  For now, I DIDN'T do as much wire as would fit on the first layer.  I did one turn less, but I also prefer to "back up" each layer when I can back at the shaft to help prevent the coils from falling apart and give the coils more structural stability, so that changes things.  If you simply "
stack logs", each successive layer winds up further and further away from both the crown and the shaft/com.  On a 4-layer coil, that's not so bad, but on a 6-layer coil the whole thing can collapse.  Then too, back at the com, you can' t necessarily always "step back a half".  When you try these, you'll find that sometimes towards the top, and at the shaft-end of the coils, you have to "step back a whole", if that makes sense.  Anyway, the wind is 52/28!

 

-john


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#25 olescratch

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 01:07 PM

John, that only created more questions in my mind.  Do you keep track of what works and what doesn't to avoid repeating the ones that don't?  Time to write a book on the subject, I'll need a copy lol!   


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#26 Dallas Racer

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 01:34 PM

That's a perfect wind job. Thumbs up!
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Phil Smith ® ™


#27 Kim Lander

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 03:31 PM

Hmmmmm...the way you layer the winds make different magnetic fields...thats why some winds of same gauge wire and same turns come out different...but when the winds are patterned you know where the flux field is and how it is affected by the fixed pattern of the magnet.


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#28 havlicek

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 03:57 PM

Hmmmmm...the way you layer the winds make different magnetic fields...thats why some winds of same gauge wire and same turns come out different...but when the winds are patterned you know where the flux field is and how it is affected by the fixed pattern of the magnet.

 

I've had similar thoughts Kim.  It may be completely off-base in terms of the actual physics, but it almost "seems" to make sense.  It could just be also that neat winds use less wire than messy ones, which would bring resistance down.  It also could be that neat winds make for a more consistent armature from pole-to-pole.  That I DO know can help a motor to run better.  Then again, it could be all of the above.


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#29 havlicek

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:00 PM

John, that only created more questions in my mind.  Do you keep track of what works and what doesn't to avoid repeating the ones that don't?  Time to write a book on the subject, I'll need a copy lol!   

 

Hi John,

 

     I should write all this stuff down, but I don't.  My two winding cranks have some early scribbles on them when I was first getting back into winding and testing things, but I've moved away from most of those test winds over the years.  I do a LOT of the same motors, using the same laminations, so I guess I have the information tucked away in the old noggin.  I'm also looking at resistance readings for clues, even though resistance isn't a good predictor of an armature's potential all by itself.


John Havlicek

#30 havlicek

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:23 PM

John,

 

I'm counting seven layers of wire. Top layer has 5 turns.

 

In a pure "log stacking" wind, this will give a 56 turns  (5 turns + 6t + 7t + 8t + 9t + 10t + 11t = 56 turns).

 

Is this what you were aiming for?

 

Also can you say a little on how you do the transition from one layer to the next?

 

Bill

 

Hi Bill,

 

     More on the transitions from layer-to-layer of the coils.  I have a few basic techniques that I use most of the time so:

1) On the first layer, I will get close to as much wire I can fit on there...or DEFINITELY as much wire as I can fit on there.  If you leave too much space out at the crown end of the arm, the first "return wind" of the second layer can squeeze itself in between the last two winds on the bottom layer.  You can control how stable the bottom layer is out there somewhat by how tight you pull on the wire...how you tension it.  Leaving the wire fairly loose makes for a really unstable coil, so I use the most tension on the bottom layer, and only "ease-up" slightly on subsequent layers.  ***I have broken #25 wire several times and maybe even #24...I think.  Anyhow, I really tug on that first layer!  :D

When I get as far as I'm going at the top (com end), I head down towards the middle of the last two turns on the bottom of the coil, so the bottom is where my winds first start heading the other way back towards the shaft.  The reason for this is that I always start with the wire "out of the way" at the beginning, so the top of the coils have half the width of the wire more room, so naturally at the outside of the layer, the bottom will get "overlapped" first...if that makes sense.

2) When I get back at the shaft end of the coil, I go one turn past where the turns can be "stacked", which puts that turn "behind" the two layers and reinforces them...making for a MUCH more stable coil.  Sometimes I'll jump from the reinforcing turn right onto the stack afterwards by placing it on top of, and in between the reinforcing turn and the last actual turn of the layer below.  Sometimes, I'll do two reinforcing or backup turns if there's space and the "hub" of the lams isn't too chubby, like those awful Mura .007" lams of old.  If so, that means the next turn on top of those two that falls between them would equal another three whole turns before I'm back to "stacking wood".  ***These sorts of wind patterns can cause the dreaded "3rd pole syndrome" where you get by on the first two poles, but can't finish the third pole.  That's when I start cursing.

 

3) Sometimes when I need to get more wire on an arm, I do an extra turn *beyond* the first and second layers when I'm back out at the crown, and then will do a "reinforcing turn" on top of that, as well as a second one to get back to the height of the other stacked layers.  I try not to, because it can make things really difficult from that point forward.  The only good news there is that the outside of the poles isn't where you'll run out of room.  That always happens (of course!) back at the shaft end, but it can make things messy if you're not really careful.

All of the above means that I often have to do a test pole of a given wire gauge on a given lamination to come up with a pattern.  I don't have the luxury of an assortment of lams for specific purposes.  It's basically either vintage Mabuchi/Mura or the ones I've gotten from you.  Sometimes coming up with a wind for a specific lam feels like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole!  :D


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John Havlicek

#31 wbugenis

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 05:33 PM

A lot of hours of  experience in those words, John.

 

You must write something down when you complete a pole so you can duplicate it on the other two?

 

I can't remeber anything that long.

 

Thanks 


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William Bugenis

#32 boxerdog

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 06:17 PM

John, if you send me a "backup copy" of your favorite winds I will archive them for you. And run them, too. 

 

On a serious note, it might be cool to number them, jot down notes and any feedback you get from racers. Or not.


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David Cummerow

#33 havlicek

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 09:17 PM

A lot of hours of  experience in those words, John.

 

You must write something down when you complete a pole so you can duplicate it on the other two?

 

I can't remeber anything that long.

 

Thanks 

 

Hi Bill,

 

     I often do that because I have the same affliction!  :D   I may try a couple of patterns of a wind on a certain stack, and when i find what I need to do, I'll jot it down with a Sharpie on the glass I work on.  For example, I'll write something like 27/37 (8 and 1 behind).  That would be the wind, the turns on the first layer and how I do the turnaround back at the shaft...1 reinforcing turn.  That way, I can walk away and come back later or even the next day and *usually* just keep on working.

 

 

John, if you send me a "backup copy" of your favorite winds I will archive them for you. And run them, too. 

 

On a serious note, it might be cool to number them, jot down notes and any feedback you get from racers. Or not.

 

I don't have an "original" copy" Dave.  :D  I'd have to make that first in order to make a backup copy!  Anyway, I always have it "upstairs", at least in so far as it exists at all.  Even after all these armatures, a lot of this stuff happens on the fly because a lot of these things are one-offs.  


John Havlicek

#34 olescratch

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 08:23 AM

One-offs, just another way of saying unique! 


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John Stewart

#35 boxerdog

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 09:46 AM

As an older person, I can tell you that the view from "upstairs" isn't what it used to be, so I made a little Access database to keep info on arms, setups and which combinations were fruitful. Kinda OCD, but it was fun to do.


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David Cummerow

#36 havlicek

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 06:57 PM

More on this motor.  I got the itch to do something different with the end bell, and several lifetimes later got it done.  :D

I started with a new Simco end bell made for "Pittman style" brush arms and cut the molded parts off that would normally hold the brush arms with the spring in between.  That left me with a bare end bell, made of a superior type material than the standard Mabuchi stuff and a huge space...good for airflow, bad for making anything else fit.  Soooo:

1) The original end bell has only a hole about the size of the 36D shaft...no bushing.  So first, the end bell hole got opened-up for a 5mm x 2mm bushing.  Then the inside had to have a recess cut for the new bushing flange so I didn't lose any interior height.

2) The 2mm x 5mm bushing had to get reamed to fit the larger shaft (approx .089").  I was a little worried about chucking the small and shallow bushing directly on the lathe, so I had to make a larger "something" to carry the bushing while opening up the bushing hole.  That meant truing up a piece of brass, boring a center hole, installing/soldering the bushing into that hole, boring it out and then removing and cleaning it all up afterwards.  The result was a nice snug bushing for the 36D armature that's far better than what's in the stock Mabuchi end bell.

3) Now, installing that bushing in the Simco end bell presented some issues as well.  Even though the Simco is made from a superior material...some sort of nylon from what I can tell, getting something to stay put in such a slippery material is not going to be a matter if just a "good fit".  So I drilled a series of holes around the bushing pocket stuck a teensy bit of an epoxy mix (half JB Weld and half Duralco 4461 to get the right consistency) inside the end bell and a teensy bit around the flange of the bushing.  By doing this, the bushing is effectively "keyed" to the end bell nylon.  By actually using the armature and some arm spacers to make the installation, the new end bell bushing is not just keyed to the end bell, but also bore-aligned with the can bushing and the new end bell.  After curing, the end bell bushing seems well secured and isn't moving.

IMG_2009%20copy_zps0zxsllph.jpg

 

4) For hardware, there's VERY little room to fasten anything, even though there's a LOT of room for something to just sit there.  So I fashioned a set of bottom plates with tabs as part of those, using the end bell as a template.  I then got a pair of Mura hoods, and cut the buss bars off them.  This all got jigged up on my glass table with a brush alignment bar to help hold everything, and I soldered the hoods to the bottom plates.

5)  After that, I soldered a pair of brass spring post sleeves to the plate/hood assemblies to give me the hardware for the two sides of the motor.

 

6  Last, I had to drill some holes in the tiny bit of space that would allow me to attach these bottom plate/hood/spring post assemblies and just barely hit the mark.  It could easily have been a load of work that wound up getting tossed if the screw holes didn't work.

 

Now the motor has two solid, tight fitting and well aligned bushings, an end bell with better airflow made of a better material and better brush hardware which can also use standard-length springs...any springs that fit a C or a D motor.  This is by far the most work I've ever done just to get a functioning end bell...not even close.  Whew!

 


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John Havlicek

#37 Geary Carrier

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 07:45 PM

Hi John,

 

There goes that envelope thing...

 

 

Thanks,

g


Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#38 havlicek

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 09:20 PM

Thanks Geary!  I was going to screw the post sleeves to the bottom plates, but then realized that leaving them as hollow tubes should help radiate-away any extra heat.  It all sorta just fell together...kind of like "improvising".  All the way through the process of building the end bell, I kept telling myself "well, if it all goes southg, I can always just use a Mabuchi end bell".  :)


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John Havlicek

#39 slotbaker

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 11:48 PM

Nice work John.

Very resourceful.

Those 2 screws closest to the edge look dangerously close to shorting out on the can.

:huh:


Steve King


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Posted 05 March 2017 - 12:23 AM

Hi John,

 

 

More on the transitions from layer-to-layer of the coils.  I have a few basic techniques that I use most of the time so:

 

I more than appreciate this dissertation on your technique...

 

 

Thanks,

g

 


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Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#41 havlicek

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 06:29 AM

Thanks Geary.  "Dissertation" makes it sound way more important than it is.  Winding is one of those things that's hard to describe clearly, so the words are a little frustrating.  It would be much easier to show than to tell, so I hope it all made sense.


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John Havlicek

#42 havlicek

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 06:38 AM

Nice work John.

Very resourceful.

Those 2 screws closest to the edge look dangerously close to shorting out on the can.

:huh:

 

They ARE Steve, or at least one is.  Two of the four are fine and the other two came close, with one especially so, but all is good!  I get frustrated with the Mabuchi end bells, and sometimes I'll go way deep into this stuff to NOT use one.  Both the standard bushings and the end bell material itself are problematic with these things.  If you take an NOS bushing out of the Mabuchi end bell and slip it onto a shaft, there's a surprising amount of slop in the fit.  That only allows for the slightest wear before things start to go south.  With an unbalanced armature, the death-spiral of increased wear causing more and more arcing and heat...it's only a matter of time before the "POOF".

The Simco (and others) end bells made for the Pittman-style brush arms seem like the weirdest of "upgrades", since that brush arrangement is awful.  Had they just made a duplicate of the Mabuchi end bell out of the better material, that alone would have been worth it.  They also had no provision for a bushing!  I guess (?) the armature was just supposed to ride on the plastic???


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John Havlicek

#43 olescratch

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 01:21 PM

Whew!!!  I'm tired just reading about all the work that's going into this one.  I've been trying to figure out a plan for the end bell on a Russkit 34, I'm still trying lol!.


John Stewart

#44 havlicek

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 05:07 PM

Me too John...and the dadgummed end bell turned out to be NG!  I spun the motor up and it was running nicely but drawing as LOT of current when I noticed a bunch of arcing on one side only.  After some head-scratching, it turned out that one side of hardware was noticeably further away from the com than the other and the brush was actually moving sideways under rotation.  The only "fix" would be to resolder the whole thing, so into the trash it went.  Back to a regular 36D end bell...ARGH!


John Havlicek

#45 Geary Carrier

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Posted 05 March 2017 - 06:49 PM

Hi John,

 

 

Back to a regular 36D end bell...ARGH!  

 

I predict that there will soon be 36D end bells that survive races with 26 winds and beyond.

 

I liked your metal monster end bell and I think it's too bad it didn't work, the next one just might do the trick.

 

Your non dissertation on winding is still the most detailed description of how you wind that I can find on the Forum.

 

I made a copy to put under my pillow at night to help even out my sleep habits...

 

 

Thank,

g

 

 

 

 

 


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Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#46 havlicek

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 06:21 AM

Meh...c'est la guerre Geary.  :D


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John Havlicek

#47 Geary Carrier

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 10:32 AM

Roger that one John, :good:

 

g


Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#48 havlicek

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:27 PM

Well, when I succeed, I share...it would be dishonest to hide my flops Geary!  :D

 

-john


John Havlicek

#49 havlicek

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 07:43 PM

Back on track, the old girl is all good to go and will live to fight again.  Current draw is slightly less than half of where it was at right around 1amp...ahhh.

IMG_2010_zpsiomugsep.jpg

 

-john


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John Havlicek

#50 Frank The Tank

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:11 AM

Your work has inspired me to start winding again. I started reading your thread from 10 years ago, what a long strange trip it's been.

Got a bunch of 36D parts together and did my first one yesterday, 60T of 29. Not as pretty as yours but I did it and it worked! Still have to tie it, epoxy and balance.One down eight to go, 36DD's forever!


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Frank Giordano

 






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