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Legal chassis?


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#1 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:04 AM

Rails attached per rules, close-up shows attachment to motor bracket.

 

DSCN9942.JPG

 

DSCN9943.JPG


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#2 Noose

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:13 AM

IMO no since if all else was removed that structure would not support the car. 


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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:18 AM

Bill,

 

What thickness is that rail?


Mike Swiss
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#4 mppicione

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:20 AM

Looks nice!!!! Good luck.


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#5 Cap Henry

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:32 AM

What rule doesn't it meet? There's no rule saying if you picture it without everything else it has to support itself. That's not a partial rail on top of brass plate, so it doesn't have to meet the .047 minimum. So unless there's a rule I missed it's legal.

Definitely creative and knew that was going to happen at some point LOL
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#6 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:34 AM

What thickness is that rail?

 

.023". But that makes no difference if I read the rules correctly.


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#7 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:51 AM

IMO no since if all else was removed that structure would not support the car.


I like my cars flexible. :)
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#8 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

"An additional restriction being imposed is that bracing or partial rails soldered atop brass plate to "complete" a main rail structure can be no smaller than .047" diameter."

Since there are no other legal main rails, effectively, that .023" wire qualifies as the bracing, that makes the chassis illegal, and falls under the .047" minimum rule.

IOW it's the only thing that completes a main rail structure, so it has to be .047" minimum.
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Mike Swiss
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#9 Half Fast

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:09 PM

Mike don't you mean illegal, not legal?


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#10 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:11 PM

The .023" rail is solid from motor bracket to nosepiece so it meets the requirements of the rules as a main rail not bracing?
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#11 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:12 PM

This is becoming a game of beating the rule rather than good building practices.


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#12 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:16 PM

That .023" wire is the main rail structure.

Where does it say the structure has to be multiple pieces?


Mike Swiss
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#13 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:20 PM

This is becoming a game of beating the rule rather than good building practices.


Being involved in the tech inspection end of many races all I am attempting to do is close a loophole. Not trying to circumvent the rules but clarify.
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#14 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:21 PM

This is becoming a game of beating the rule rather than good building practices.


Correct.

Adding 2 short pieces of .047" wire to the pictured chassis, to the outer rails, doesn't create any "hardship" to the racer, and they can still leave on that .023" wire if the feel it is a handling benefit.

Mike Swiss
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#15 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:23 PM

That .023" wire is the main rail structure.
Where does it say the structure has to be multiple pieces?


Sorry, Mike, I am not getting your point here, a lifttke confused.

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#16 Half Fast

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:26 PM

So the chassis as pictured in post#1 is:
 
1- Legal
 
2-Illlegal
 
Which one? :unknw:
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#17 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:28 PM

Bill F,

What else is the legal main rail structure?

There are no other ones.

It sounds like you just want us to reword the rule.

Mike Swiss
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#18 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:31 PM

Again just looking to close what I see as a loophole in the rules. Nothing personal or anti-IRRA®.


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#19 Cap Henry

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:42 PM

I understand Bill's point.

The way the rules are written now, there is only a minimum rail size if the wire is multiple pieces and it's a brace on top of brass sheet. That is not multiple pieces or on top of brass sheet, it's sole purpose is connecting the front and back.

Would that rail support the car on its own? No. But that's not a rule that it has to. Bill is pointing out a very obvious loophole that I tried pointing out too.

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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:45 PM

Bill, Cap,
 
An additional restriction being imposed is that bracing or partial rails soldered atop brass plate to "complete" a main rail structure can be no smaller than .047" diameter.

So it sounds like you want us to add "or the main rail itself" to the the above passage, because you don't consider your single .023" rails as the main rail structure, in our wording.

I do, as there are no other legal main rails.

You might want to straighten out THIS seller on eBay while you are at it. LOL.

Mike Swiss
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#21 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:52 PM

To me the very name main rail states that it is the primary connecting and strength structure of the chassis. In this case that is certainly not the case. That makes the small wire bracing and not main rails.
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#22 Phil Hackett

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:53 PM

Roger Penske says he's proud of all of you...  :shok:  :laugh2:


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#23 Cheater

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:00 PM

I believe what Bill wants us to do is to specify a minimum main rail diameter, which I feel we cannot do as there are too many building multi-piece mail rails out of fairly small diameter wire.


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#24 Cap Henry

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:02 PM

Why the need to make this personal? No one is attacking the IRRA® or any of the BoD.

You could just as easily put a piece of .023" flat, not on top of any brass sheet, and have it go into notches in the nose piece, and then still have the other rails and it is technically a legal car. Is it nit-picking? Yes. But it's still a possibility that can be done and currently legal. Then it becomes up to the tech guy as to what is perceived as legal. Bill simply wants to eliminate the perception issue.

If a main rule minimum diameter is the answer, IMO it needs to read more like the rails combined diameter/width needs to exceed .062" or maybe more. Saying minimum of .047" eliminates all the .039/.032" wire cars.


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#25 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:07 PM

Would that rail support the car on its own? No. But that's not a rule

 
Go to the first sentence of the fourth paragraph, in the below thread, where we address legality issues with this new chassis.

IRRA® chassis main rail construction clarification

Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#26 Cap Henry

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:15 PM

OK, I missed that, I was wrong.

I still think the rule could be written better also, because even though the issue was brought to light with this chassis, chassis were built with the same idea and no rail going from motor box to nosepiece and no one knew any better before now.

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#27 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:30 PM

I fully get what you and Bill are concerned about, and it's not adversarial.

The matter has been brought up on the private BoD forum.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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Chicagoland Raceway
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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