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GTC coupe weight?


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#1 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:42 PM

Why is Coupe weight 110 grams? I think having the 110 gram minimum is hurting the class because you have to slap so much weight on your car, at least from my prospective. In the south GTC is not run at all.

The chassis specs are identical to Can-Am other that the weight. So if the weight is the same, you can get more participation because all you have to do is slap a coupe body on your Can-Am chassis and go!

Thoughts?




#2 Brinkley47

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:51 PM

I think Coupe would be more popular than F1 in the south if it were offered. Definitely less equipment needed in the box.
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#3 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:58 PM

We have seen no difference in participation at all on days when we do run Can-Am and Coupe on the same day. The additional weight is there actually to make the class/cars easier to drive for the majority of racers. 

It is a Tier 2 class and one that many start in. There are not many that run Can-Ams right at the 100 gram mark, mostly because of the variety of tracks raced on where more weight is your friend.
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#4 tonyp

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:03 PM

Makes it easier for a new builder to make a chassis close to the minimum weight.
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#5 JerseyJohn

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:03 PM

Also Coupe bodies don't have the aero a Can-Am does so the higher weight helps.
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#6 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:05 PM

If coupe is an intro to Retro wouldn't you benefit in Can-Am as well if a new racer only has to put a Can-Am body to run?

#7 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:07 PM

A lot of guys do that anyway here. Matt Bruce took his Coupe car and removed around 3 grams of weight to drop it from just over 110 to 107-ish and put a Can-Am body on it. He won.
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#8 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:08 PM

Makes it easier for a new builder to make a chassis close to the minimum weight.


IMO, I think chassis kits do that.

#9 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:08 PM

Not everyone uses kits though.
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#10 tonyp

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:17 PM

On a high speed King to boot.

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#11 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:41 PM

If I were running Coupe I would just make a removable center plate for my Can-Am and be set. At least that is where I would start.
 
I like the open wheel cars myself, but I can see that it would be easier to run coupe because the Can-Am chassis is usable. I do like having three distinct types of cars with Stock Car, Can-Am, and F1.
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#12 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:43 PM

Retro South raced GT Coupes for a few years with great success. GT Coupe was always more popular than Stock Cars in this area for several reasons. Not only was it more economical because you could run two classes with one car, but you also didn't have to worry about buying or building Stock Car chassis and parts if you were on a budget.

Not to mention Coupes are easier for the newer or less skilled racer to drive. Easier to drive equals more enjoyment for most.

Also for many years most Can-Am cars were 110 grams anyway so most people didn't have to add or remove weight. Stock Cars have always been the least-attended Retro class in the South no matter what series was running.
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#13 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:59 PM

My heavier Coupe cars run better on the flatter tracks with the Can-Am bodies.

 

Anyway, how many 1/1 Can-Am races were held on banked tracks? None, but USRRC did race on the Meadowdale banked road course and broke the frame on the King Cobra.


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#14 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

Cap Henry has been known to be very successful using heavier Can-Ams to win Premier events. Weight is just a number if it cannot make laps in the slot.


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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:34 PM

Heavier cars are always going to be easier to drive, especially in the gutters, and I'm pretty sure just about every racer prefers cleaner racing.

To say it would improve participation is silly.

If you can't committ to a $1.25 piece of Lucky Bob lead, to put on your $150-$250 car, you really don't want to race. LOL.
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#16 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:37 PM

Another case of where heavier is better is the stock car class.  While the spec is 120 grams I can only think one one racer that attempted to run at that in all of the events we have had this year.  The average weight is around 135 grams nd that is for a high speed king.  More for the smaller and slower type tracks. 


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#17 Brinkley47

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:39 PM

I hope everyone runs a 135 gram stocker at port Jeff noose. I might stand a chance :)
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#18 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:44 PM

Look at the race reports and XPro's car who set all the records.


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#19 John Streisguth

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:05 PM

Plus for many years, the coupe class was restricted to FK motors and the Can-Am class allowed the Puppy Dogs, so the difference in the characteristics of the cars was greater.
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#20 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:09 PM

Those years are over. I just think if nothing else, it makes things simple. You can still run a heavy car on flat tracks and a lighter car on a punchbowl.

#21 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:12 PM

Taylor, they are simple. 


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#22 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:18 PM

I have been Racing retro for six months and still have to look stuff up from time to time ha-ha, but I guess simpler would have been a better choice of words.



#23 MSwiss

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:20 PM

If you want to make it even simpler, run Can-Am twice.

Our Wednesday night racing used to be two GTP races until the wing car hooligans forced me by gunpoint to let them run Group F.


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#24 Cap Henry

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:23 PM

The only Premier cCan-Am race I've won is the R4, and only once did my car weigh less than 110 grams LOL.

I like that Coupe and Can-Am have different weights; at least makes it slightly different.


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#25 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:26 PM

It seems I am beating a dead horse, I am now tired...



#26 Half Fast

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:28 PM

The Coupe rule ain't broke, no need to fix it.

 

Cheers.


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#27 Brinkley47

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:22 PM

Coupe is my fav class!
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#28 James Grandi

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:28 PM

Build cars with removable center weights, it's easy to do and even easier to switch the car from class to class.

To be fair, looking at how most people I have raced with prepare for an event, if it is a GTC and Can-Am race day, most people will have three Coupe cars and three Can-Am cars.

If you made the weights the same, they are still going to show up with three Coupes and three Can-Ams in the box LOL.
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#29 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

Coupe is my fav class!


Me, too!

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#30 Richard G With

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:34 PM

I like the way Dallas does it; the "extra" class is Anglewinders with Big Dog motors you can modify.


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#31 Dominator

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:55 PM

On a high speed track the weight difference will make a slight difference in speed. Speaking for only the track styles here in New England, most of our racers run the same car and just change the body as most of our track's are significantly flatter.
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#32 Jay Guard

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 09:57 PM

I agree with Taylor that the 110 gram weight limit makes no real sense and I too would like to see it changed to 100 grams. Hey, if people want to run their cars at 110 grams there's nothing stopping them. Why should you either have to have a different car or for that matter be required to change it just to accommodate a different class.
 
BTW... Here's a bit of historical information that most probably don't know... 

The reason for the 110 gram weight limit in GT Coupe is due to the fact that the class was originally conceived as a entry level spec class using only the original JK one-piece Retro chassis. It was difficult to build that chassis as originally intended at less than 110 grams so to discourage modifications (which were illegal anyway) and to make it easier for the new guys it was decided to make the minimum weight limit 110 grams. How do I know this you may ask, well I was an advisor to the original IRRA® BoD when the rules were formulated and discussed. Although I wasn't a voting member of the BoD I was nonetheless closely involved in the development of the original rule set.
 
With that background info in mind it seems to me that it makes even less sense to keep to the 110 gram weight limit. Just a another senseless rule for racers to deal with. I think we can all agree on the fewer the rules the easier it is for all to participate.


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#33 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:21 PM

It's not changing.


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#34 Jay Guard

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:25 PM

I'm shocked! :D


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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:13 PM

I agree with Taylor that the 110 gram weight limit makes no real sense and I too would like to see it changed to 100 grams. Hey, if people want to run their cars at 110 grams there's nothing stopping them. Why should you either have to have a different car or for that matter be required to change it just to accommodate a different class.
 
BTW... Here's a bit of historical information that most probably don't know... 

The reason for the 110 gram weight limit in GT Coupe is due to the fact that the class was originally conceived as a entry level spec class using only the original JK one-piece Retro chassis. It was difficult to build that chassis as originally intended at less than 110 grams so to discourage modifications (which were illegal anyway) and to make it easier for the new guys it was decided to make the minimum weight limit 110 grams. How do I know this you may ask, well I was an advisor to the original IRRA® BoD when the rules were formulated and discussed. Although I wasn't a voting member of the BoD I was nonetheless closely involved in the development of the original rule set.
 
With that background info in mind it seems to me that it makes even less sense to keep to the 110 gram weight limit. Just a another senseless rule for racers to deal with. I think we can all agree on the fewer the rules the easier it is for all to participate.

 

Jay,

 

I just read the private BOD discussion about the subject.

 

It didn't go exactly as you say.

 

The Warmack chassis was also mentioned, along with the JK.

 

Any guess on who said:

 

"It sure seems easier for an experienced driver to add a little weight to a lightweight Can-Am than for an inexperienced driver to break out the Dremel and start cutting on his brand new car, if he even knew where to cut."


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#36 Jay Guard

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:24 PM

Mike:

 

I might have forgotten (it was about ten years ago) that the Warmack chassis was also included in the discussion (but ultimately not allowed as I recall) but I am quite certain that the main reason behind the 110 gram weight limit was as I related. I suspect that your research has shown that to be true.

 

Not sure what the "Any guess" comment means.


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#37 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:37 PM

Okay, from a "new to Retro" prospective, I started in Can-Am. I purchased a new Can-Am chassis and requested it to be light, why? So I can balance the car to each track.

Now I am going to a premier event in Ohio that offers GTC as a class, instead of being able to throw a body on all the cars I have purchased in the last six months and go racing now I have to buy yet another chassis to run in GTC just to meet the minimum weight, because adding 10+ grams to car is not easy.



#38 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:02 AM

Now I am going to a premier event in Ohio that offers gtc as a class, instead of being able to throw a body on all the cars I have purchased in the last six months and go racing now I have to buy yet another chassis to run in gtc just to meet the minimum weight, because adding 10+ grams to car is not easy.
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Adding 10+ grams to a car isn't easy? You must be kidding.

You figured out how to successfully loctite your pinions on, but adding 10 grams is hard?

You cut the lead to the width of the pan, clean off the area with some lighter fluid, peel off the double stick tape, and press it on.

And if you think you could be competetive, running a GT Coupe at Tom Thumb, at under 110 grams, you're delusional.
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#39 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:13 AM

I might have forgotten (it was about ten years ago) that the Warmack chassis was also included in the discussion (but ultimately not allowed as I recall) but I am quite certain that the main reason behind the 110 gram weight limit was as I related.  I suspect that your research has shown that to be true.

 
Jay,

The GT Coupe class was never conceived as a spec class.

Here's the first draft of the rules:

Chassis a. b. Chassis Type: Any personally-built or commercially-available scratchbuilt chassis in kit form or built conforming to these specifications is allowed. Chassis Materials: Brass: sheet, rod, and tube; steel: wire, pin tubing, and commercial guide tongues are allowed. Steel tongues cut from center sections of Flexi chassis, such as Parma Flexi 2 or 3, JK Cheetahs, etc., may be . until January 1, 2009, but cannot be cut off any farther back than 3/8 (9.53mm) behind the front axle and are limited to a maximum 1 (25.4mm) width. Other pieces of steel used for guide tongues are limited to a maximum 1 (25.4mm) width and 1.50 (38.1mm) length to include the guide holder. No other materials are allowed. Chassis parts, such as pans, brackets, guide tongues, etc., that are made using EDM, laser, or water-cutting techniques are allowed only if they are individual commercially-available components or components of chassis kits (i.e. these techniques may not be used in the private manufacture of one-off components). Materials such as printed circuit boards are not legal. Each car must have a brass rear bracket consisting of at least three sides (vertical or horizontal), with each connected side having a minimum width or height of at least .200". Under this restriction, a cut-off brass Womp piece would be allowed. The motor bracket must support the motor and extend to touch the rear axle tube. The axle tube does not need to travel through the motor bracket. The motor can be screwed to the motor bracket and/or it can also be soldered in. Floating pin tubes inside another tube are allowed. c. Hinged Movements: Other than a drop arm, all hinged movements must be oriented in only one direction on any individual chassis. A chassis may have transverse hinges (examples: Iso-fulcrum hinges and plumber hinges) OR it may have longitudinal hinges (example: side pan hinges) but the chassis may not have both types. The number of individual hinges is not restricted. Centerline hinges are NOT allowed. d. e. f. Motor a. Front axle: A single straight, 3/32 (2.38mm) minimum diameter, one-piece front axle is required, carrying both front wheels. The axle may be fixed or in a tube. NO hinged front wheel movements are allowed (i.e. no L arms). Front wheels may rotate independently. Guide: A single guide flag is allowed, centered on the longitudinal axis of the chassis (i.e. no sideways free float or offset) and with a blade no larger than .086 (2.20mm) wide x 1.060 (27.18mm) long. No part of the chassis, motor, gear, or other component may hang below the main chassis rail(s), which may not be bent or bowed vertically for the purpose of lowering the midsection of the frame below the level dictated by the clearance specifications.

These original rules also were written at 100 grams.

You suggested the weight minimum be increased to 110 grams because a lot of racers would be using the JK and Warmack kits.

You made the comment I highlighted, about "It sure seems easier for an experienced driver to add a little weight..."

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#40 Jay Guard

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:29 AM

OK I think we (me actually) are a little out of sync here.  

Didn't we have a JK Spec class which was meant as a entry level class and had the 110 gram weight limit as I mentioned? I was thinking that the JK Spec class kind of morphed into the GT Coupe class and that is why it ended up with the 110 gram weight limit. Otherwise why would we have just pulled the higher weight limit out of thin air?
 
Not looking for any kind of an argument here, just trying to remember the details of those long ago rules discussions.

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#41 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:38 AM

JK Spec was different.

It was raced the first time at Sano 2 with Can-Am bodies, on the Flat Track.

JK Spec Race at Da Sano

Mike Swiss
 
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#42 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:09 AM

Jay,

This should refresh your memory. Here's the post where you suggested the 110 grams minimum.

Posted 03 July 2008 - 09:00 PM
 

I just want to make sure I'm on the same page with everyone else here...

The intent of these changes are to provide a slightly less-expensive class (F7/TSR D3 motors only) that should appeal more to the newer drivers and less to the old pros while not totally excluding them. Right?

Assuming that's true I like the new GTC rules with possibly one exception, that is the minimum weight. My suggestion is to raise the minimum weight to 110-120 grams. Seems to me that it would help the new guys feel like they've got a better chance with a "standard" kit car. I don't know exactly what a standard JK or Warmack kit weighs (help me out Ron or Mike S.) but I'm guessing around 110 grams. If we raised the minimum weight it would still be easy for any "lightweight" Can-Am car to be brought up to spec with the addition of a little lead and not have the new guys with a standard kit car feeling like they've got to get their car down-to-weight to be competitive.

Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#43 Jay Guard

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:19 AM

OK, Mike, thanks for helping me with the facts, it was a long time ago that we were in those rules discussions and I'm the first to admit that my memory isn't the greatest. I still think I'm correct concerning the JK Spec weight limit but obviously not for GTC.

 

Looks like it's all my fault for the 110 gram GTC weight limit. I guess now I'm trying to correct my "original sin."  :D


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#44 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:28 AM

No need to apologize.

The IRRA® weight minimums have served us well, promoting super-close racing, especially in GTC.

Sano 9 with, three laps separating first-seventh in GTC-Pro, is a prime example.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#45 TG Racing

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:56 AM

Taylor, 

Go back and look at Cap Henry's cars. I'm pretty sure all his stuff is over or around 110 grams.
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#46 Taylor Davis

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:32 AM

If the car starts at 98 grams how is that car going to work at Tom Thumb? It's not, not every track is an American King, these are national rules for every track, including punchbowl kings so it would benefit being less than 110 grams.

#47 Noose

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:38 AM

Taylor,

Go read our race reports for Port Jeff. Even Can-Am cars are more than 100 grams. No one really runs that light and competes well. Lighter means less stability and beleive me lots more crashing.
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#48 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:42 AM

Okay, from a "new to Retro" prospective, I started in Can-Am. I purchased a new Can-Am chassis and requested it to be light, why? So I can balance the car to each track.

Now I am going to a premier event in Ohio that offers GTC as a class, instead of being able to throw a body on all the cars I have purchased in the last six months and go racing now I have to buy yet another chassis to run in GTC just to meet the minimum weight, because adding 10+ grams to car is not easy.

 

No need to buy a new car, just do what you say you intended to do and "balance" the car out at 110 grams.


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#49 Noose

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:46 AM

Hey, the good thing is that you can now run Wonder rubber there instead of untreated/natural tires. Nothing like going through 10-20 pair of tires in a weekend.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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#50 Racer36

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:58 AM

Amazing how a twenty-something Retro noob can cause such a kerfuffle, eh? Some of my flexi stuff probably has ten grams of goo on it and still runs just fine. LOL.
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