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GTC coupe weight?


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#26 Half Fast

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:28 PM

The Coupe rule ain't broke, no need to fix it.

 

Cheers.


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#27 Brinkley47

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:22 PM

Coupe is my fav class!
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#28 James Grandi

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:28 PM

Build cars with removable center weights, it's easy to do and even easier to switch the car from class to class.

To be fair, looking at how most people I have raced with prepare for an event, if it is a GTC and Can-Am race day, most people will have three Coupe cars and three Can-Am cars.

If you made the weights the same, they are still going to show up with three Coupes and three Can-Ams in the box LOL.
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#29 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

Coupe is my fav class!


Me, too!
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#30 Richard G With

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:34 PM

I like the way Dallas does it; the "extra" class is Anglewinders with Big Dog motors you can modify.


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#31 Dominator

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:55 PM

On a high speed track the weight difference will make a slight difference in speed. Speaking for only the track styles here in New England, most of our racers run the same car and just change the body as most of our track's are significantly flatter.

A motor is only as fast as the chassis it's in.
 
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#32 Jay Guard

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 09:57 PM

I agree with Taylor that the 110 gram weight limit makes no real sense and I too would like to see it changed to 100 grams. Hey, if people want to run their cars at 110 grams there's nothing stopping them. Why should you either have to have a different car or for that matter be required to change it just to accommodate a different class.
 
BTW... Here's a bit of historical information that most probably don't know... 

The reason for the 110 gram weight limit in GT Coupe is due to the fact that the class was originally conceived as a entry level spec class using only the original JK one-piece Retro chassis. It was difficult to build that chassis as originally intended at less than 110 grams so to discourage modifications (which were illegal anyway) and to make it easier for the new guys it was decided to make the minimum weight limit 110 grams. How do I know this you may ask, well I was an advisor to the original IRRA® BoD when the rules were formulated and discussed. Although I wasn't a voting member of the BoD I was nonetheless closely involved in the development of the original rule set.
 
With that background info in mind it seems to me that it makes even less sense to keep to the 110 gram weight limit. Just a another senseless rule for racers to deal with. I think we can all agree on the fewer the rules the easier it is for all to participate.


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#33 Noose

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:21 PM

It's not changing.


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#34 Jay Guard

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:25 PM

I'm shocked! :D


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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:13 PM

I agree with Taylor that the 110 gram weight limit makes no real sense and I too would like to see it changed to 100 grams. Hey, if people want to run their cars at 110 grams there's nothing stopping them. Why should you either have to have a different car or for that matter be required to change it just to accommodate a different class.
 
BTW... Here's a bit of historical information that most probably don't know... 

The reason for the 110 gram weight limit in GT Coupe is due to the fact that the class was originally conceived as a entry level spec class using only the original JK one-piece Retro chassis. It was difficult to build that chassis as originally intended at less than 110 grams so to discourage modifications (which were illegal anyway) and to make it easier for the new guys it was decided to make the minimum weight limit 110 grams. How do I know this you may ask, well I was an advisor to the original IRRA® BoD when the rules were formulated and discussed. Although I wasn't a voting member of the BoD I was nonetheless closely involved in the development of the original rule set.
 
With that background info in mind it seems to me that it makes even less sense to keep to the 110 gram weight limit. Just a another senseless rule for racers to deal with. I think we can all agree on the fewer the rules the easier it is for all to participate.

 

Jay,

 

I just read the private BOD discussion about the subject.

 

It didn't go exactly as you say.

 

The Warmack chassis was also mentioned, along with the JK.

 

Any guess on who said:

 

"It sure seems easier for an experienced driver to add a little weight to a lightweight Can-Am than for an inexperienced driver to break out the Dremel and start cutting on his brand new car, if he even knew where to cut."


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#36 Jay Guard

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:24 PM

Mike:

 

I might have forgotten (it was about ten years ago) that the Warmack chassis was also included in the discussion (but ultimately not allowed as I recall) but I am quite certain that the main reason behind the 110 gram weight limit was as I related. I suspect that your research has shown that to be true.

 

Not sure what the "Any guess" comment means.


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#37 Taylor Davis

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:37 PM

Okay, from a "new to Retro" prospective, I started in Can-Am. I purchased a new Can-Am chassis and requested it to be light, why? So I can balance the car to each track.

Now I am going to a premier event in Ohio that offers GTC as a class, instead of being able to throw a body on all the cars I have purchased in the last six months and go racing now I have to buy yet another chassis to run in GTC just to meet the minimum weight, because adding 10+ grams to car is not easy.



#38 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:02 AM

Now I am going to a premier event in Ohio that offers gtc as a class, instead of being able to throw a body on all the cars I have purchased in the last six months and go racing now I have to buy yet another chassis to run in gtc just to meet the minimum weight, because adding 10+ grams to car is not easy.
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Adding 10+ grams to a car isn't easy? You must be kidding.

You figured out how to successfully loctite your pinions on, but adding 10 grams is hard?

You cut the lead to the width of the pan, clean off the area with some lighter fluid, peel off the double stick tape, and press it on.

And if you think you could be competetive, running a GT Coupe at Tom Thumb, at under 110 grams, you're delusional.
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#39 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:13 AM

I might have forgotten (it was about ten years ago) that the Warmack chassis was also included in the discussion (but ultimately not allowed as I recall) but I am quite certain that the main reason behind the 110 gram weight limit was as I related.  I suspect that your research has shown that to be true.

 
Jay,

The GT Coupe class was never conceived as a spec class.

Here's the first draft of the rules:

Chassis a. b. Chassis Type: Any personally-built or commercially-available scratchbuilt chassis in kit form or built conforming to these specifications is allowed. Chassis Materials: Brass: sheet, rod, and tube; steel: wire, pin tubing, and commercial guide tongues are allowed. Steel tongues cut from center sections of Flexi chassis, such as Parma Flexi 2 or 3, JK Cheetahs, etc., may be . until January 1, 2009, but cannot be cut off any farther back than 3/8 (9.53mm) behind the front axle and are limited to a maximum 1 (25.4mm) width. Other pieces of steel used for guide tongues are limited to a maximum 1 (25.4mm) width and 1.50 (38.1mm) length to include the guide holder. No other materials are allowed. Chassis parts, such as pans, brackets, guide tongues, etc., that are made using EDM, laser, or water-cutting techniques are allowed only if they are individual commercially-available components or components of chassis kits (i.e. these techniques may not be used in the private manufacture of one-off components). Materials such as printed circuit boards are not legal. Each car must have a brass rear bracket consisting of at least three sides (vertical or horizontal), with each connected side having a minimum width or height of at least .200". Under this restriction, a cut-off brass Womp piece would be allowed. The motor bracket must support the motor and extend to touch the rear axle tube. The axle tube does not need to travel through the motor bracket. The motor can be screwed to the motor bracket and/or it can also be soldered in. Floating pin tubes inside another tube are allowed. c. Hinged Movements: Other than a drop arm, all hinged movements must be oriented in only one direction on any individual chassis. A chassis may have transverse hinges (examples: Iso-fulcrum hinges and plumber hinges) OR it may have longitudinal hinges (example: side pan hinges) but the chassis may not have both types. The number of individual hinges is not restricted. Centerline hinges are NOT allowed. d. e. f. Motor a. Front axle: A single straight, 3/32 (2.38mm) minimum diameter, one-piece front axle is required, carrying both front wheels. The axle may be fixed or in a tube. NO hinged front wheel movements are allowed (i.e. no L arms). Front wheels may rotate independently. Guide: A single guide flag is allowed, centered on the longitudinal axis of the chassis (i.e. no sideways free float or offset) and with a blade no larger than .086 (2.20mm) wide x 1.060 (27.18mm) long. No part of the chassis, motor, gear, or other component may hang below the main chassis rail(s), which may not be bent or bowed vertically for the purpose of lowering the midsection of the frame below the level dictated by the clearance specifications.

These original rules also were written at 100 grams.

You suggested the weight minimum be increased to 110 grams because a lot of racers would be using the JK and Warmack kits.

You made the comment I highlighted, about "It sure seems easier for an experienced driver to add a little weight..."

Mike Swiss
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#40 Jay Guard

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:29 AM

OK I think we (me actually) are a little out of sync here.  

Didn't we have a JK Spec class which was meant as a entry level class and had the 110 gram weight limit as I mentioned? I was thinking that the JK Spec class kind of morphed into the GT Coupe class and that is why it ended up with the 110 gram weight limit. Otherwise why would we have just pulled the higher weight limit out of thin air?
 
Not looking for any kind of an argument here, just trying to remember the details of those long ago rules discussions.

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#41 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:38 AM

JK Spec was different.

It was raced the first time at Sano 2 with Can-Am bodies, on the Flat Track.

JK Spec Race at Da Sano

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#42 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:09 AM

Jay,

This should refresh your memory. Here's the post where you suggested the 110 grams minimum.

Posted 03 July 2008 - 09:00 PM
 

I just want to make sure I'm on the same page with everyone else here...

The intent of these changes are to provide a slightly less-expensive class (F7/TSR D3 motors only) that should appeal more to the newer drivers and less to the old pros while not totally excluding them. Right?

Assuming that's true I like the new GTC rules with possibly one exception, that is the minimum weight. My suggestion is to raise the minimum weight to 110-120 grams. Seems to me that it would help the new guys feel like they've got a better chance with a "standard" kit car. I don't know exactly what a standard JK or Warmack kit weighs (help me out Ron or Mike S.) but I'm guessing around 110 grams. If we raised the minimum weight it would still be easy for any "lightweight" Can-Am car to be brought up to spec with the addition of a little lead and not have the new guys with a standard kit car feeling like they've got to get their car down-to-weight to be competitive.

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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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#43 Jay Guard

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:19 AM

OK, Mike, thanks for helping me with the facts, it was a long time ago that we were in those rules discussions and I'm the first to admit that my memory isn't the greatest. I still think I'm correct concerning the JK Spec weight limit but obviously not for GTC.

 

Looks like it's all my fault for the 110 gram GTC weight limit. I guess now I'm trying to correct my "original sin."  :D


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#44 MSwiss

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:28 AM

No need to apologize.

The IRRA® weight minimums have served us well, promoting super-close racing, especially in GTC.

Sano 9 with, three laps separating first-seventh in GTC-Pro, is a prime example.


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#45 TG Racing

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:56 AM

Taylor, 

Go back and look at Cap Henry's cars. I'm pretty sure all his stuff is over or around 110 grams.
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#46 Taylor Davis

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:32 AM

If the car starts at 98 grams how is that car going to work at Tom Thumb? It's not, not every track is an American King, these are national rules for every track, including punchbowl kings so it would benefit being less than 110 grams.

#47 Noose

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:38 AM

Taylor,

Go read our race reports for Port Jeff. Even Can-Am cars are more than 100 grams. No one really runs that light and competes well. Lighter means less stability and beleive me lots more crashing.
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#48 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:42 AM

Okay, from a "new to Retro" prospective, I started in Can-Am. I purchased a new Can-Am chassis and requested it to be light, why? So I can balance the car to each track.

Now I am going to a premier event in Ohio that offers GTC as a class, instead of being able to throw a body on all the cars I have purchased in the last six months and go racing now I have to buy yet another chassis to run in GTC just to meet the minimum weight, because adding 10+ grams to car is not easy.

 

No need to buy a new car, just do what you say you intended to do and "balance" the car out at 110 grams.


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#49 Noose

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:46 AM

Hey, the good thing is that you can now run Wonder rubber there instead of untreated/natural tires. Nothing like going through 10-20 pair of tires in a weekend.

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#50 Racer36

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:58 AM

Amazing how a twenty-something Retro noob can cause such a kerfuffle, eh? Some of my flexi stuff probably has ten grams of goo on it and still runs just fine. LOL.
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