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Bud's Ferrari 330 P4


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 04:19 PM

This car is for my racing buddy John "Bud" Greene, using a True Scale 330 P4 body he had squirreled away :)

Perfect choice for an early 1968 Pro era vintage build

 

IMG_5270.JPG

 

Parts gathering to follow ...........


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Paul Wolcott




#2 Pablo

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:18 PM

This car will be based on Mike Steube's winning car in a race right when anglewinders were starting to dominate.

Not intended to be an exact replica, but pretty close to it.

 

http://slotblog.net/...s-usra-1968-04/

 

Opened up my motor "boxes of horrors"  :o  pulled out a Champion 16D can and endbell,

Pro Slot 60/28 .540 arm, Speed FX magnets, 36D brush holders, Tradeship pent roof hoods

 

IMG_5277.JPG

 

Magnets super glued to can with a .580 slug and hoods soldered to holders.

Endbell trimmed for clearance and tapped for 0-80 screws.

She passes the "shaft falls through the brush holder tool in the bushings" test.

Vintage doesn't get any better than this and I just hope Bill S. approves

 

IMG_5286.JPG


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Paul Wolcott

#3 Pablo

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:57 PM

Motor runs pretty nice, draws 1.6 amps at 3 volts, very free of vibration.

But I quickly realized the error of my ways - a left hand endbell drive requires a reverse timed arm.

 

I could change the arm, or maybe I'll just make the car a right hand endbell drive.

Since it's not intended to be an exact replica, it may be for the better. I'll sleep on it....... :lazy:


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#4 Humbolt

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 12:10 AM

Nice choice Pablo, Thank you for posting these builds
Paul
Paul Fahey

#5 Pablo

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:09 AM

Thanks Paul :)

 

I'd like to ask the historians why it appears most pros at the start of the anglewinder revolution used left hand EB drive cars? This required reverse timing, so their existing arms wouldn't work - they would have had to custom wind new arms.

 

I can't think of any advantage a left hand EB drive would have over a right hand EB drive.

Also interesting to note Gene Husting's anglewinder was right side can drive but looks like most immediately went to EB drive. Possibly for less motor vibration transfer to the car. That part makes sense to me.


Paul Wolcott

#6 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:52 AM

I do not remember but I think I saw something on the blog that said east cost used one rotation and west cost the other in the early angle winders. I could be wrong. 


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#7 Pablo

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:17 AM

Yes Eddie. It wasn't a hard fast rule, just a style or preference thing I guess.

Steve Okeefe in his Col Neaton build thread calls it "California Style":

 

http://slotblog.net/...st-anglewinder/

 

But my question still remains. It seems to me, at that point in time, they were faced with the same situation I have today -

I looked in all my boxes of horrors and didn't find a single arm timed CW at EB.

 

My solution is obvious, time to call my armature guy :)


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#8 Half Fast

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:06 AM

Can you just rezap the magnets to reverse the polarity?

 

Cheers


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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:20 AM

Zapping the magnets won't fix the problem.

The arm is timed in one direction.

On a zero timed arm, you could zap the magnets, or easier, flip the lead wires.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#10 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:32 AM

I understand you problem Pablo. I am just wondering if the difference in styles had to do with the timing direction of different motor manufactures back them. It would be interesting to look at the in-line cars just before angle-winders and see what side the crown gear was on.


Eddie Fleming

#11 old & gray

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 11:08 AM

Scraping the back and bottom of my memory for 1966-1969 memories about motors and arms, Mura arms were timed CCW (end bell), so were Champion arms. There were Lenz arms which looked (com and laminations) the same as Muras. I remember an article on one of the West Coast race (inline F1’s) in which Steube (?) was quoted as saying part of car setup was motor rotation. The end bell mounting started because the inline motors used end bell mounting. The first angle winders had the motor (and mass) offset to the can side. There were a number of “King Track” cars with weight off set to the right and some with even having the front axle canted for a right turn.

By the way Pablo, when you were showing pictures of your parts collection just before your move I seem to remember a vintage CW rotation arm in among the mix.


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Bob Schlain

#12 Mbloes

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 11:25 AM

Not really adding anything, but here is a photo of a Lenz, with the sticker indicating CW rotation:

 

lenz.jpg


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Mike Bloes

#13 Pablo

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:10 PM

There were a number of “King Track” cars with weight off set to the right and some with even having the front axle canted for a right turn.

That could explain it. Another theory I have is, maybe they were winding arms so fast, twisting a comm in a different direction wasn't a big deal.

 

I get that different manufacturers used different timing directions, but the pros I'm talking about at the major races, I do not think they were using factory arms. The hot arm winders like Bill Steube were winding like crazy.

If you read the fine print in the 1968-04 article, things were literally evolving overnight.

 

I was just curious, that's all. old & gray may have nailed it with his weight distribution theory, I don't know.

I'll be centering my motor weight left/right as I've always done.

 

My "problem" has already been solved by an email to Havlicek :dance3: Parts gathering continues.......


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#14 Bill from NH

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:11 PM

The Col Neaton build article for this Steube chassis is on here & maybe on Steve Okeefe's DVD's too. Do you have the links?

 

Of the vintage arms I ever saw, all Lenz were timed CW, Thorp put the same winds on both CW & CCW, & other manufacturers were CCW. These were production open class arms anyone could buy over the counter. I have no idea what the pros might have been running during the 70's, but by the mid-80s custom arms were available. This is the main reason why a couple Canadian young men started PK arms..


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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:15 PM

Pablo already listed the Col Neaton build article link, in post #7.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#16 Bill from NH

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 07:27 PM

I didn't read this thread this morning, I was too busy shoveling snow.


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#17 Pablo

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:40 PM

Hey, I was busy cooking spaghetti and walking the dog at the beach today, but you don't see me crying :sarcastic_hand:

 

Front and rear wheel OD's will be 3/4" and 13/16", respectively.

7/8" rear would be "period correct" but the body was originally intended for modern D3 racing, so 13/16" takes precedence.

 

As long as I'm breaking all the "vintage rules" (the vintage police aren't looking) I'll be ignoring the 1/16" level front to rear clearance standard on this car. I want Bud to run this thing hard around the track, not sit and stare at it as it gathers dust........


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#18 Pablo

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 04:45 PM

Parts gathering done

 

IMG_5294.JPG

 

-front and rear 1/8 axles custom cut and polished PCH 3304

-front wheels Russkit replicas; tires EJ's #15's

-rear wheels vintage 1/8", width 5/8"; donuts JK Wonder Rubber

-spur gear vintage, genuine 45T 64P Faas, courtesy of dc-65x :friends:

-pinion angled steel 12T, narrowed and polished

-ball bearings unknown maker, flanged and shielded

-Jet Flag, blade shortened, blueprinted

-lead wires genuine Cox Superflex

-motor brushes new Gold Dust; springs Speed FX

-drop arm weight Team Associated 7 gram

-braid, modern .027" thickness


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Paul Wolcott

#19 Pablo

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 08:43 PM

I don't have a Champion 16D jig motor, so I made one

 

IMG_5299.JPG

 

Thin double sided tape will attach it to the Rick's Jig

 

IMG_5300.JPG

 

These Associated weights have thick attachment tape - I remove it and replace with thin double sided tape.

Front wheels trimmed/trued to .750" OD. Please forgive the pixie dust on the tires :D

 

IMG_5305.JPG

 

 


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Paul Wolcott

#20 Pablo

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:22 PM

I still don't understand how normal motor brackets work with Champion endbells.

Mike Steube's original car looks like it had a normal thickness .032" bracket.

 

A Champion endbell bushing housing extends about .047 past the mounting face.

Without some sort of gizmo or trick, the mounting screws will be tight against the bushing housing, not the mounting face.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe back then they just didn't consider it an issue.

In any event, I did my usual trick of a Champion gizmo, modified and silver soldered to the bracket

 

IMG_5316.JPG

 

Steube used a trimmed Associated bracket, I used a REHCO - looks exactly the same to me

 

IMG_5313.JPG

 

I changed my mind on the rear wheels and went with Professor Motor 724's - the other ones were too wide.

WB is set a hair under 4", GL 3/4", wheel widths 3.00", clearance .032 level front to rear.

 

Jig motor isn't taped down yet - I'd like to move it further left and rear if I can - mañana :)

 

IMG_5309.JPG


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Paul Wolcott

#21 Pablo

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:22 PM

Multiple bends in wires are not fun, but that's how Mike did it that night in 1968, so I did my best.

Main wire rails and motor bracket are just tacked (precisely) to the axle tubes for now

 

IMG_5333.JPG

 

I removed the precious parts and washed them ASAP.

No way would I leave a new vintage Faas spur in an acid environment jig more than a few hours :)

Rear wheels are just rough cut for now.

 

 

 


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Paul Wolcott

#22 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:12 PM

I once read that Associated had manufactured the bracket REHCO sells that is commonly called the "Dubro bracket." I don't remember where I read that, but I never saw this bracket in any of the old slot cars mags either. It might have been Rocky Russo who first referred to it as a Dubro bracket.


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#23 Pablo

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:43 AM

Bill, I think you're right - all 3 are one in the same part.

The brass sure seems hard for .032 - either that, or my Unitbit is getting dull :)

 

This time I got smart and made all the parts I possibly could before heating up the Ungar.

Theoretically it will minimize the amount of time everything is in contact with acid

 

IMG_5338.JPG

 

My pickup assembly has one less wire piece than Steube's.

The .039 gizmos do triple duty - strengthener, flag stops, and leadwire guides

 

IMG_5336.JPG

 

 

 

 


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#24 dc-65x

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:11 PM

Super clean work Pablo.


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#25 Pablo

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:40 AM

Thanks Capt. Rick :D  Bud, your chassis is done and tumbled.

 

Mike Steube pulled an all-nighter before the race building his, blaring The Rolling Stones on the stereo.

It took me much longer :laugh2:

 

Pan torsion wires are .020. When both ends are soldered instead of just one, it gives the lift a different feel - very soft.

Maybe a handling secret? We shall see.

 

IMG_5346.JPG

 

In addition to being soldered at the bottom, the bracket is braced with four different wires

 

IMG_5347.JPG

 

My outer "U" wire connecting the flag tube lays flat to the drop arm it's entire length, then bends up for max strength.

The inner "U" doesn't need that bend because it has the outer piece to nestle against

 

IMG_5352.JPG

 

Despite my concern of warpage soldering a wire rail against a brass rail it's entire length, for some reason it never did.

Maybe because I did it little by little. Whatever, it's pretty flat

 

IMG_5354.JPG


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