Jump to content




Photo

New motor break-in


  • Please log in to reply
78 replies to this topic

#51 usadar

usadar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,108 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo; Japan

Posted 29 March 2017 - 06:51 PM

Haruki, are these chemicals something that is especially marketed for slot racing, or are they something that just happens to promote quick motor brush break-ins? Does one apply the green bottle cleaner before the pink bottle chemicals are applied, or is the cleaner for cleaning out the pink bottle chemicals once the motor brushes are broken in?


Bill,

This product was originally developed for the previous motors for Kyosho Minitz R/C cars (now their motors have become brushless).

Some people use this for Tamiya Mini 4WD motors.

1. You clean and moisturize the comm with the green cap.
2. Run the motor at around 2 volts, put a few drops of the pink cap on the comm.
3. Wash and clean the comm with the green.
4. Repeat this procedure until you see the brushes seat on the comm perfectly.
5. Clean the motor with motor cleaner and/or naphtha thoroughly and blow it dry.

When I broke-in 30 new Retro Hawks with this chemical for the RetroPalooza 7 last year, most of them burned at testing 5 or 8 volts on the power-supply.

The surviving motors burned at the first few laps on track at the Port Jefferson King, so I had to use the left-overs of the Checkpoint Cup.

I first thought I hadn't cleaned well enough.

At the RetroPalooza 7, howevwe, Tebu broke-in three hand-out Retro Hawks for GTC with this chemical in front of me, perfectly cleaning them with naphtha and jet air, but all the three burned when they were run with the power-supply. We all had to break-in the hand-outs in water.

The present batch of Retro Hawks seem OK with this chemical for quick break-in.

Haruki


  • Brian Cochrane likes this
Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo on Facebook
 
Where do we go from here: chaos or community?




#52 Chubby

Chubby

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 48 posts
  • Joined: 09-October 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 30 March 2017 - 12:13 AM

Hi ya'll,
 
I see and understand both sides here.
 
I however wouldn't see a disadvantage of having the brushes properly radius to the comm and or softer brush. I understand brush formula can be very difficult as well, even if you start with the brush being properly to the comm, I dont see how that would reduce people racing and longevity of the motor, if anything it will be more efficient IMO.  

There's always gonna be good ones and bad ones no doubt about it. As Bryan posted earlier, the brushes in the older motors were most definitely softer/different. Maybe Tim can clarify this?  

Anyhow, going fast and being more efficient is always key for any type of racer, but definitely more towards the newer racer. I'll be the 1st to tell you that these motors for $13 are truly amazing on how consistent they are.  

All im trying to say is, with what we have, we could have better for us as racers and for Tim at JK. Maybe im wrong, maybe turning or changing the brush will increase the price, these are things we don't know, is it worth it?

I'm all in. :)
 
Chubby
  • tonyp and Brian Cochrane like this

Joe "Chubby" Salzman
10x USRA National Champion
3x World Champion
Team Koford
StupidFast Racing
PJ Raceway
G7Chubby@Hotmail.com


#53 Bryan Warmack

Bryan Warmack

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,301 posts
  • Joined: 17-July 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 March 2017 - 03:55 PM

Just a couple cents to throw in here from the Left Coast...

JK, please leave the brushes alone! The Hawk Retro 7R7R is just fine the way it is and at the recent Checkpoint Cup the racers found that they were more than fast enough, quite reliable, consistent, and a great deal for the money!
 
The constant changes, whether they have real or perceived advantages, aren't really necessary and just end up creating extra work for all the people in charge who are trying their best to insure a level playing field for everyone! :)
  • Cheater, MSwiss, Noose and 14 others like this

#54 Matt Bruce

Matt Bruce

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 617 posts
  • Joined: 06-November 07

Posted 31 March 2017 - 01:13 PM

If you want a fast effective way to break your Hawks in or any FK motor, try my Simple Green method.

 

Spray motor out with Pure to clean the factory grease and oil first. Then dunk motor in straight Simple Green cleaner at 3 to 4 volts for 5 to 10 seconds. Pull it out, check to see the brushes are across the comm, if not repeat for 5 second cycles till the brush is seated.

 

Some have hard and soft brushes so best to sneak up on it, but it doesn't take much time at all. Once the brush is seated, spray the motor out again to remove the Simple Green, blow it out dry, oil the shaft ends lightly, then either stick it in the car or if you have time, run on power supply at 2 to 3 volts for a few minutes then put it in car and run. Within a few laps it's ready to race.

 

Water break-in is OK but the Simple Green puts the entire process on steroids, gets the motor super clean, while providing a quick brush wear rate without ever glazing the comm.

 

Just remember 5 to 10 seconds is all you want, anything more and you are just wasting good brush wear for motor longevity.


  • Zippity, Half Fast, Tim Neja and 15 others like this

#55 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,038 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 31 March 2017 - 01:48 PM

Matt,

 

Thanks. Good information. I'm going to try this.

 

But I got to ask how many other substances did you experiment with before hitting on one that worked? I've heard of people using naphtha, vodka, and even urine.


  • Matt Bruce likes this
Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller,special council.(2013)
 

#56 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,423 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 31 March 2017 - 02:27 PM

I'm with Bryan – no more changes please!! The motors are working fine at this time – as equal as we've seen. There's always going to be variation, nothing can be done about that. But consistency in manufacturing is a must!! It helps keep things even and equitable for all.

 

Thanks for all you've done, Tim – the Retro Hawks are working great.   :)

 

And thanks Matt for your break in suggestion!  I've been using tap water!  I'll have to try some "Simple Green"!! :)


  • Matt Bruce, Samiam and JK Products like this
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#57 Brian Cochrane

Brian Cochrane

    Brian Xpro Retro East Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 133 posts
  • Joined: 05-June 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 31 March 2017 - 02:41 PM

Thank you to Matt for giving a great answer to my post on how to cut down the break-in time on a new motor...

Thank you for your help!

Brian
  • Tim Neja likes this

#58 Zippity

Zippity

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,526 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 31 March 2017 - 03:34 PM

I now have another use for the bottle of Simple Green that I have down in the garage.
 
Thanks, Matt.  :)

#59 olescratch

olescratch

    olescratch

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 487 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ravenna, OH

Posted 31 March 2017 - 04:32 PM

Who the hell thought of using urine to do anything with? Now that's just going too far. And who would want to deal with the smell. Too much info, should have kept that one private.
  • tonyp likes this
John Stewart

#60 Pat Skeggs

Pat Skeggs

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 594 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 13

Posted 31 March 2017 - 05:12 PM

Thanks, Matt. This method will help in a hand-out motor race for sure. I tried water, but it's hit and miss.

Simple Green stock should go up this week.


  • Matt Bruce likes this

#61 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,090 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 31 March 2017 - 10:07 PM

Would Purple Power work the same way?


Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta


#62 Shooter7mustang

Shooter7mustang

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 37 posts
  • Joined: 23-December 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denver, CO

Posted 03 April 2017 - 02:50 PM

What is Pure?


Kevin Myhaver

Bad Dog Racing

Retro Racing

"Till the wheels fall off"

 

Romans 1:16 "... for I am not ashamed of the Gospel"


#63 Jay Guard

Jay Guard

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,203 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anniston, AL

Posted 03 April 2017 - 03:05 PM

It's a solvent spray made for cleaning out electronics and electric motors without leaving a residue or film.


Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


#64 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:19 PM

Performance Plus-4 is the same thing. Endorsed by reedy and available at almost every hobby shop. Bigger can also.


Jason Engel

#65 Jason Holmes

Jason Holmes

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor CIty, CA

Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:13 PM

Just got four cans of CRC 5103 from Amazon for $19 with Prime. Works the same as Pure.

 

Jason 



#66 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,423 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:46 PM

How'd you get that? The case price is $68?


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#67 wjtaylor

wjtaylor

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 49 posts
  • Joined: 30-October 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lake Forest, CA

Posted 04 April 2017 - 02:14 AM

In the early '80s I was the parts manager for a Japanese manufacturer of business equipment.

 

A new printer was designed by a major manufacturer of printers and was released to the industry. The company I worked for installed these printers into a new line of cash registers. Almost immediately these printers started having problems starting the print cycle. When I examined these motors, I found that the motors brushes were installed like the brushes on the Hawk series. That is, 90 degrees to what one would expect.

 

We wrote up a report indicating that the brushes were installed incorrectly and sent it off to our QC group in Japan.

 

We got a response from the printer manufacturer that the brushes were installed that way on purpose and included a multi-page report explaining why this was better and more efficient. After some back and forth and testing by the manufacturer, they agreed the theory was wrong.

 

It sounds like somebody got a copy of the original white paper on the theory of rotating the brushes 90 degrees.

 

Please don't ask what the theory was, this was more than 30 years ago. But as soon as we installed new motors into the printers, the intermittent start problems went away.

 

Now I know we are not having start problems, but I just wanted to let everyone know that the manufacturer is not screwing up, they are following an engineering requirement.


Bill Taylor
Hi-Speed Products

#68 Jason Holmes

Jason Holmes

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor CIty, CA

Posted 04 April 2017 - 04:17 PM

Tim,

You tell me. I just look and buy. Are there 12 to a case or six; you did not say. If only six, man, I got a great deal. May buy some more then.

I think I got way lucky. They now want $18.27 each or $68 a case. I paid $4.77 each, nice for me.
 
jason
  • Tim Neja likes this

#69 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,423 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 04 April 2017 - 09:03 PM

Yeah, I've been watching and the prices change a bit every now and then. The case price for 12 is $68.00 and I can get free shipping. That gets it down to $5.66/can. Maybe if someone at BPR wants to go in on it with me I'd order the case.
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#70 Jason Holmes

Jason Holmes

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor CIty, CA

Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:22 PM

Well, it is going to get here tomorrow will see if it is what I wanted.
 
Jason

#71 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,090 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 05 April 2017 - 05:56 AM

I can prob get you guys cases of this stuff cheap. I'll let you all know this afternoon.
  • tonyp likes this

Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta


#72 Brian Cochrane

Brian Cochrane

    Brian Xpro Retro East Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 133 posts
  • Joined: 05-June 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:11 AM

I just wanted to give a shout out to Matt  for his input on this topic... I tried his motor break-in method with Simple Green and it worked very well. It speeded up the whole brush break-in time and kept everything nice and clean. Be sure you rinse the motor out well to remove all debris and dry it well before you run it...

 

Matt didn't have to share this with us all but he did and that shows what a class act he is...Thank you.


  • tonyp, Half Fast, Mike Jr and 5 others like this

#73 tonyp

tonyp

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,485 posts
  • Joined: 12-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sanford, FL, land of lizards and big roaches

Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:15 AM

Just be careful it's easy to wear the brushes completely out. Don't ask me how I know. LOL.


  • Half Fast, Tim Neja, Matt Bruce and 4 others like this

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#74 zipper

zipper

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 522 posts
  • Joined: 11-August 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Finland

Posted 25 April 2017 - 11:18 AM

I did an experiment on water break-in. I ran an open motor with higher RPM so the water turned to milky. The brushed were kaput in 30 seconds! I wondered a little what was happening. Then I came to the conclusion it was caused by cavitation in the water. The tiny bubbles formed do explode/implode and hammer the brushes into smithereens.


  • Robert BG likes this
Pekka Sippola

#75 JerseyJohn

JerseyJohn

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,799 posts
  • Joined: 05-September 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern NJ

Posted 25 April 2017 - 03:03 PM

Just got four cans of CRC 5103 from Amazon for $19 with Prime. Works the same as Pure.

 

All I use, Jason... great price.


  • Jason Holmes likes this
JJ TRADE MARK BANNER copy.jpg

John Chas Molnar

"Certified Newark Wise Guy since 1984" (retired)
"Certified Tony P Chassis God since 2007"
" Internationally Know Slot Car Racing Celebrity "
https://www.facebook...yjohncreations/
Email me
 


#76 Racer36

Racer36

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 450 posts
  • Joined: 09-October 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Posted 06 May 2017 - 03:18 PM

I finally got around to trying the Simple Green break in method that Matt Bruce so kindly shared with us. My somewhat ancient mind seemed to recall 15 seconds being the sweet spot... wrong! It worked extremely well but that motor is likely good for two races max.

 

I took the time to read the thread again and tried a second motor for 10 seconds. It is perfect! Nice contact pattern and super-clean comm.

Thanks, Matt!


  • Tim Neja, lucky77 and Brian Cochrane like this

Dennis Dominey

Lifelong half-assed slot racer


#77 NSwanberg

NSwanberg

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  • Joined: 01-April 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canton, MI

Posted 07 May 2017 - 04:17 AM

I did an experiment on water break-in. I ran an open motor with higher RPM so the water turned to milky. The brushed were kaput in 30 seconds! I wondered a little what was happening. Then I came to the conclusion it was caused by cavitation in the water. The tiny bubbles formed do explode/implode and hammer the brushes into smithereens.

 

Understanding cavitation in centrifugal pumps leads me to believe you might be on to something here, however, the bubbles would have to form right in the brush/comm interface for the collapse to create the wear we sometimes see. I am just not sure that is going to happen there.

 

I am not a fan of water break-in for anything but I have tried it. I think the type of brush or its characteristics have a big influence on the wear during water break-in. I have had the same brand of brushes behave completely differently in the same set-up. When they disappeared in a matter of seconds I just figured that was not a set of brushes I wanted in the motor.


Remember the Steube bar!
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RACEWAY!!
"The denial of denial is the first sign of denial." Hank, from Corner Gas
Nelson Swanberg

Peace be with all of us and good racing for the rest of us.
Have controller. Will travel. Slot Car Heaven

#78 JustGeeDub

JustGeeDub

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:34 AM

Brian,
 
I thought I was your best friend. :friends:


I thought I was his best friend... :shok:


A Shelby mindset... in a Winnebago body
I never could have been as fast as I remember I was!
Drink the wine... Punch the donut
 
G.W. Henderson

#79 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,038 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 15 May 2017 - 04:52 PM

GW,

 

Your best friend is "Garlic."


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller,special council.(2013)
 





Electric Dreams Online Shop