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Retro anglewinders


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#1 YetiSRP

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 01:40 PM

Why do you think this isn't a more popular class?


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#2 Bill from NH

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:01 PM

Because you don't have to use a sealed motor like most everybody has become use to.


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#3 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:14 PM

I think Jim is referring to Retro Anglewinder as run in the ORS. Not sure about the answer to your question except it is currently getting twice as many entries as before. When we first started the class we used motors much too fast for most racers. Attrition was near 80%.

Now with the sealed 4002-FK motor more cars are finishing and entires are going up. Hopefully the trend continues...
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#4 Steve Deiters

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:14 PM

Jim,

 

At this stage of the game it is competing with three other established inline classes-Can-Am, F1, & GT.  "Flintlock" chassis designs that seem to get faster every year.  Not sure how "anglewinder" didn't fall into the original "Retro" concept, but I digress...

 

As to the motor that was referenced in the previous post I think the IRRA® could help by switching the motor for the class to the Retro Hawk may help the anglewinder class. That way potential racers would only need to have one motor "program."

 

SD



#5 tonyp

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:27 PM

I think most people find the chassis harder to build. The cars have no weight limit and handle better than a Retro and much less weight so crashes are usually major destruction.

 

Add to that another motor program is needed.


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#6 YetiSRP

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:33 PM

Already some interesting replies here...

 

I wish Bill had expanded on his comment as it can be read as either 1) it's just convenient or 2) racers have gotten somewhat lazier. Incorporating the other two comments, racers would rather buy 5-10-15+ motors, have to break them all in, put them in cars and run them hard than get a motor, open it up, tweak it and run the crap out of it?

 

I mean, as Mike would know, having been around on the scene even longer than me, you used to put a frame together, usually get a Mura can and your choice of 'dot' magnets and stick in a Pooch or Steube arm and have it. With your 25, 24 or double 27 winds, attrition was relatively low. Why is attrition becoming an issue now. Cheap/low quality?

 

I'm not trying to be 'flip' or create controversy. Just seriously wondering.


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#7 tonyp

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:35 PM

Most attrition on a King is cars getting destroyed.


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#8 tonyp

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:38 PM

And gears.


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#9 mjsh

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:42 PM

Questionable rules. Survivor cars from this era would be not legal under revisionist rules.

1) Front axle- most cars of this era were diamonds or Ls, not straight. Why not allow any to help creativity, ease in body mounting?
2) Limited body choice.
3) Motors - what is it this week? I like the legal motor to be fast enough that cheating isn't worth the trouble. So a mini-can with a 12 arm?
4) Stamped steel frames are so good now, hard for relative newcomers to justify.
 
Just my opinion. I'd love to race the mid-'70s style cars.
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#10 JimF

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:26 PM

Less than $0.02 worth but...
 
In NorCal, we have been running anglewinder coupes as a bi-monthly class for near 10 years. We get in a race every other month as planned but they average the lowest turn-out of any class we do except 1/32. We probably run too fast a motor (built Big Dog) in a car with less downfor e than a Can-Am. We also run on banked tracks that would be considered "flat or slow" in most areas. The speeds are impressive but the attrition rates are high.
 
As in many aspects of the hobby, the faster the cars are, the smaller the pool of capable drivers and mechanics.
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#11 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:29 PM

Anglewinder/RetroOro with the X12/BD motors are IMO too fast and hard to drive for most. ORS did a good thing with the PSFK to slow them down and it's getting more popular
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#12 Richard G With

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:30 PM

I run the anglewinder as one of the classes at Dallas Slot Cars. It's RETRO rules there so we have the Big Dog motor only. Dallas has been seeing an increase in the number of entries, and it's my favorite at the moment.
 
The attraction for me is that it's closer to a true scratchbuilt car like we had in the '60s and '70s.

That's also probably why it's not as widely run, there may be fewer racers who prefer to build their own cars, as compared to the other classes. I like to build them, but have been racing cars built by my buddy Alan Dodson. We had alot of success at Dallas in November and his chassis are having more success since then.
 
There is only so much innovation possible in the inline configuration; anglewinder seems to allow more creativity.
 
I enjoy both inline and anglewinder and think the RETRO rules for anglewinder are preferable to the IRRA® approach due to the light weight and more powerful motors.


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#13 YetiSRP

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:31 PM

Wow. OK. Thanks.

 

Not for a heartbeat did I consider the cars getting the snot beat out of them!


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#14 Richard G With

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:57 PM

Attrition in anglewinder at DSC doesn't seem to be all that high.

 

The Big Dog arms are higher quality and I don't think the motors let the smoke out very often. And they don't exhibit the push start problem that often claims a good PSFK motor.

 

The lighter weight may translate to more fragile cars, but for the most part attrition on the DSC flat track is more due to the usual nuts and bolts things that happen in all classes. King track crashes are of course more violent, maybe the Can-Am cars are less vulnerable. But surely F1 cars are more fragile and that seems to be a well-represented class.

 

I'd also ask why Can-Am Plus isn't more widely run.


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#15 S.O. Watt

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 06:09 PM

The SCRRA/D3 RetroCcoupe class cars are very fun on flat tracks. They are an anglewinder that uses a Retro Hawk/TSR/Falcon. They differ from a RetroPro in there is no motor program, pretty much the same coupe bodies that IRRA® allows. Same tyre sizes as IRRA® Can-Am/Coupe, same front axle requirement, etc.


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#16 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 06:12 PM

Back in the late '60s when we ran anglewinders with straight front axles, the car weight was about 5.5 ounces or 150 to 160 grams. So actually, compared to todays inline Retro cars, we are running lightweights today, 105 grams.


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#17 YetiSRP

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 09:14 PM

And then came the days of;

 

Stick-it

Limpach Lotion

Beautox

etc…


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#18 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 10:10 PM

Not a chassis builder, but, a few of the guys at BPR have stated that the AWs are a bit more difficult to build The two races we have at BPR running the AW coupes is a lot of fun. Everyone really likes them, but, alas, only two races.

 

So, we take what we can and enjoy them. 


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#19 Mark Wampler

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 10:37 PM

The SoCal Retro Coupes only run twice a year, so it makes it a special time. That way, the class doesn't get worn out. Participation is excellent. 

 

/32 and Stock Cars didn't survive from the original D3 line-up.


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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:28 PM

If you went with mandatory 48 pitch gears, reliability would go up immensely.
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#21 Bill from NH

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 06:33 AM

Does anyone sell 48 pitch spur gears with a 3/32" bore? Parma once had a few, but I don't know if they still do.


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#22 Samiam

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 08:40 AM

I never tried it on anything other than Parma crown gears but would their reducer bushing work OK on a spur?


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#23 YetiSRP

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:56 AM

Ok, can someone supply me with a link to the prevailing Retro Anglewinder rules?

 

Assuming that Parma is the only one that sells 48 pitch spurs and using a reducer to 3/32" axle (glued in?) and that the motor use is the 4002FK (I thought I read/heard the Big/Puppy Dog line is coming to an end), I'll scare up a body and put one together to those specs and see what happens.

 

Should really do two of them with one being a 64 pitch for comparison, everything else being equal.

 

No results until probably May. Hip surgery Wednesday and heard Haven in Elyria installing the Parma Hillclimb next month.


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#24 The Number of

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 11:09 AM

Where did this 48p idea come from? I have used 64 and 72p since the start of ORS and never lost a gear. How is 48p better?
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#25 Richard G With

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 12:30 PM

Yeti,

 

The RETRO rules are under the "Other Classes" http://www.retroslot...er---flexi.html

The body list is at http://www.retroslot...-body-list.html

 

RETRO rules for this class are very different than IRRA®, and I have no idea about the other organizations.

 

RETRO does use the Big Dog motors and mandates ceramic magnets, but use of the neo magnets may be under discussion.


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#26 TG Racing

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 03:54 PM

I have lost a few 64p gears. It was my own stupid fault for using crappy set screws!  RetroPro is my favorite class!  The ORS does it right.


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#27 Richard G With

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 04:43 PM

At DSC using RETRO rules (.790 tires) we use ~38 tooth 64 pitch spurs.

I don't have any comparably sized 48 pitch spurs handy, but my quick calculations indicate they wouldn't clear.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#28 MSwiss

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 05:16 PM

Where did this 48p idea come from? I have used 64 and 72p since the start of ORS and never lost a gear. How is 48p better?

 

48 pitch is much stronger.

When I would ask others about attrition in RetroPro, easily, spur gears, get mentioned the most.

Anyway, I think ORS going to slower motors, is a great idea.

I also agree with some of the points of Mike Shepard's post.

The lightweight RetroPro chassis leave me cold. That's why I think the UK Tottenham class is so cool. I wish we had something like that around here, so we can see some "real" Tony P anglewinder chassis. Ones with some soul.


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#29 Cap Henry

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 05:34 PM

I do agree with that, Mike. X12s/BD with a 110 gram weight rule might make for driveable cars that look cool like the Totems.


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#30 The Number of

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 06:13 PM

The PS 4002FK took the motor building out of the equation and made the largest increase in participation. If the cars get too light there may have to be a minimum weight rule. At this time though the racing is cleaner than it was with built motors.


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#31 old & gray

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 07:47 PM

Does anyone sell 48 pitch spur gears with a 3/32" bore? Parma once had a few, but I don't know if they still do.

 

I bought a Cahoza 28 tooth 48 pitch with a 3/32" hole last Friday. Personally I found my cars ran better with 64 pitch than 48 pitch.


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#32 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:28 PM

I could see 1968-1971 bodies as well in order to add the Shadow group and others that are currently 'too new'...


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#33 YetiSRP

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:00 AM

Assuming a PS 4002FK motor, at .055" rear clearance with .790" rears, what would be a good starter gear ratio?

 

Also, according to the IRRA® rules, RAW/Can-Am Plus, either coupe or open bodies are legal?

 

What's the difference between IRRA® and ORS rules for the class?


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#34 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:28 AM

ORS rules were developed to have a faster class than just Can-Am. The majority of the ORS racers felt that the IRRA® rules would be little different than regular Can-Am. They were based on left coast RetroPro rules.


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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:31 AM

ORS-KOR Retro Anglewinder rules 2016
 
Jim, these are the only rules other than the SoCal group that are in regular use. Don't think there has ever been a race using the IRRA® rule set or the RETRO ruleset.
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#36 Richard G With

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:38 AM

Bill, not sure what you mean by "a race" but Dallas Slot Cars runs Anglewinder under RETRO rules every month.

The Texas Two-Step in November also ran the RETRO Anglewinders.
 
Major difference is that RETRO uses the Big Dog motor with ceramic magnets.

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#37 The Number of

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:48 AM

Sorry wasn't aware of the Texas series. It doesn't get much coverage on SSlotblog or OWH and haven't seen much on Facebook either.

Where are the results listed? I like to keep up on any AW classes.
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#38 YetiSRP

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 09:28 AM

Thanks, Bill.

 

I have a direction now.

 

Save me some time. Who stocks those approved bodies?


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Posted 27 March 2017 - 09:37 AM

Parma bodies are available at MMW and TTH; both have good stock on hand.
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#40 Samiam

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 09:43 AM

The SCRRA's  Retro-Pro rules can be found here:

SCRRA 2015 rules & regulations
 
Other than the motor, looks identical to the ORS car.
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#41 Jason Holmes

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 12:22 PM

Love the Retro Pro class for some its not the way to go car's are faster and can be a hand full just like GT12 on a King pro bodies and 1 driver that can't keep up can miss up the whole field 

 

But still love it 

 

jason 

 

Maybe Baby Retro Pro with 4002FK motors 



#42 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 01:39 PM

I can definitely agree, at least in my lone AW start, that the cars have a "knife-edge" to them that's difficult to wrap your head around when compared to the Can Ams. 

 

With Can Am and F1, the smoothness comes naturally thanks to the cars' having a natural momentum and they swing around in very pronounced fashion. The difference between a good lap and a bad lap is both obvious enough to catch and gentle enough to not cost you the entire lap. The Anglewinder felt more jumpy with the FK torque and brakes, and generally they reacted to sloppy or tentative driving with a lot more violence. 

 

Not a BAD thing, I definitely want to stress! But it means you bring a different skillset into the race.


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#43 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 01:59 PM

At least for the SCRRA racers at Buena Park Raceway, past results show the AW Coupes on the flat track have higher lap totals using the same Retro Hawk motors and coming in at a similar weight ( 105-120 gram range).  The spread would probably be greater if Ti-22 bodies were allowed rather than the higher profile coupe bodies. Nothing handles better than a well built Anglewinder Coupe.


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#44 The Number of

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 02:14 PM

The SCRRA's  Retro-Pro rules can be found here:SCRRA 2015 rules & regulations Other than the motor, looks identical to the ORS car.


The ORS ruleset is based closely to the So Cal rules
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#45 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 02:45 PM

Perhaps I'm still in a haze from just returning from my Baja Ca vacation, but, are we talking about Retro A/W's that we use at BPR twice a year or RetroPro cars? My original posts was regarding our twice a year A/W Coupe's. I do not run RetroPro, so opps If that's where this thread was going.


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#46 Jason Holmes

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 02:56 PM

this is not about SoCal racing. Tom   Back east they race R/P with 4002FK motors less power should be easier to drive 

 

jason



#47 Richard G With

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 03:09 PM

Dallas has a monthly Retro day, fourth Saturday of the month. They have a flat track built by Ogilvie.

They post to FB as the day progresses with full results usually later in the evening.

They usually have 8 - 12 F1 entries, 14+ CA and 8 or more Anglewinder, which they term Retro Pro.

 

https://www.facebook...dallasslotcars/

 

They don't use SlotBlog, the Texas Retro thread here is pretty much dead.

 

Personally, I don't care for the "Retro Pro" designation. It's just another class of car.

RETRO calls it the Anglewinder class and intends it to represent the second generation CanAm.

 

Any Retro driver can compete. The cars aren't that hairy. Some might argue that they are easier than the inlines when set up right.


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#48 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 03:16 PM

Thanks Jason. A couple of posters referenced our Coupes, hence my last question. Cleared up.


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#49 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 04:24 PM

Save me some time. Who stocks those approved bodies?

 

Jim,

 

I bought one of your anglewinder chassis a while back off eBay advertised as a RetroPro chassis. Much too heavy by todays's standards so I had the front axle changed back to 3/32", added some weight, and it performed quite well in our flat track anglewinder Coupe races.

 

Bandes Retro Coupe chassis - Bottom view.jpg

 

Bandes Retro Coupe chassis - Top view.jpg


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#50 Richard G With

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 04:24 PM

RE: Michael Shepard's #9 above

 

I think it's correct to have this class mimicking the straight front axle era. IRRA® uses 3/32" axles with Can=Am tires while RETRO uses 1/16" minimum axle and .6 diameter wheel, allowing O-rings.

 

If the slightly later development of L-frame hinged axles were allowed, we would be making the front wheels irrelevant again, leading to Retro anglewinder becoming a scratchbuilt Flexi car.

 

BTW: RETRO has a Flexi class.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 






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