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Retro anglewinders


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#51 Richard G With

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

Here are pics copied from DSC's Facebook page of last Saturday's Anglewinder/RetroPro.

 

And one of my builds:

 

d1.jpg
 

DSCAngle1.jpg

 

AW2.jpg

 

AW1.jpg

 

 


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 





#52 Richard G With

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 05:07 PM

Referring back to Steve's post #4:

I thought the latest IRRA rules DID change to JKRH motors across the board, including Anglewinder?


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#53 YetiSRP

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 06:35 PM

Ok...

 

My head hurts.

 

First, my pictured frame is 'too heavy by today's standards' but you took off the .063" axle and added a 3/32" then put weight on it. Then someone just posted they're selling a Tony P. anglewinder that weights 41 grams with front wheels and guide but there was talk here of full cars being north of 100 grams.

 

And Richard posted pics of 3 cars, the top 2 finishers having full pans on them.

 

I'm corn-fuzed!

 

Apples and oranges?


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#54 YetiSRP

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 06:46 PM

Or as I tell Bud Bartos, paraphrasing the last line in the film, 'Chinatown'...

 

'Forget Bud. It's slot racing,'


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#55 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 06:47 PM

Sorry, Jim,

 

Two different anglewinder races we're talking about here.  

 

The chassis I posted of yours would fit well in today's anglewinder Coupe race held on the flat track at Buena Park Raceway and a few other organizations around the country. Those cars usually come in between 105-120 grams.  

 

The RetroPro chassis built by Dennis Samson, Hi Tech, and others are much lighter, running 70-80 grams complete using Pro Slot X12 motors on the blue King track.

 

Samson RetroPro.jpg


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#56 Half Fast

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 07:00 PM

Why aren't AW's more popular?

 

Because with modern inline chassis and tires, inline chassis are plenty fast enough. No need for extra complications

 

Cheers


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#57 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 07:09 PM

That seems to be the norm.
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#58 TG Racing

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 08:53 AM

I think once people try them (not overpowered) they will realize they aren't that hard to drive. 

Are they harder to build? A little but there are plenty of great builders ready to start the next wave.
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#59 Noose

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:02 AM

I thought the latest IRRA rules DID change to JKRH motors across the board, including Anglewinder?

 

Correct. The ORS class is their own. At some Premier events the RetroPro rlass is run using the SCRRA rules with some minor changes to include:

  • There is no body height rule.
  • Spoilers maximum allowed height is now 1/2 inch.
  • X12, Big Dog and PS-FK motors are allowed and motor types may not be mixed.
  • Front wheels may only be enclosed by the chassis on a maximum three sides - front, back, or inside. Never the outside edge.

The point on mixing is that a racer cannot put an X12 arm in a PS-FK can.
 
PS: I have run this class several times with the X12 motors and they are a rush for sure. Also easily destroyed. LOL.


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#60 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:44 AM

Number one reason why this class doesn't appeal:

 

All that effort and all one comes up with is a car that is no better than a Flexi, but much harder to build and way more expensive to buy (keep in mind that large numbers of retrobate racers do not scratchbuild chassis).

 

Enhancing the motor may eliminate stamped steel... but then the long accepted alternative is spring steel, rather than the fragile scratchbuilt.

 

Scratchbuilt chassis that are either more expensive or more fragile or both, why bother?


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#61 Richard G With

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:05 AM

Jim H:

 

I don't think cost is that much of a factor.

 

Again I'm speaking from my own rules bubble of RETRO at Dallas but there are local builders who sell their work at reasonable prices (not much more, if any than for an in-line chassis). From a builder viewpoint, it's actually less costly to build a RETRO AW car because the cheap o-ring wheels and guide tongue are the only commercial components needed. Also, RETRO AW with the o-ring 1/16 axle wheels only take two ball bearings instead of six (not counting the motor). Yes, the Big Dog motor is more costly compared to the PSFK but it isn't necessary to buy 12 to get a couple good ones and they can be rebuilt instead of thrown away. The rest can be scrap tube, sheet and wire that most builders are likely to have laying around anyway. For IRRA cars, it's still a little less $ investment in the chassis (no bracket) compared to in-lines. And, if the RETRO decides to allow Neo magnets, the Big Dog motor could be essentially a recycle of worn out PSFK motors with a better arm.

 

The supposed "fragility" is hard to quantify. Light weight does not necessarily equate to fragile. Crash protection is a designer decision that all builders in all classes have to decide on. If you want to build a heavier car that protects itself better in crashes, there's no reason not to do that. It is probably a good decision depending on what kind of track and environment you are intending to race.

 

In any case, the reason I like this class is that I enjoy building stuff. The more personal involvement I have in the design/build/race product the more enjoyable it is for me. I don't like stamped steel classes as much because they don't require this kind of skill and involvement. That's not to say I look down on any class of racing, it's just  that I enjoy Retro and particularly Anglewinders . I still run Flexi and "Group F" at Raytown, and enjoy that too, just for different reasons.

 

By the way, Jim, what Retro classes and rules do you race at your place? I always enjoyed that track in it's previous location so many years ago.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#62 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:54 AM

Serious attempts in Retro in this area made by John Myers years ago... I told him he'd wind up watching mostly cars he built run around the track, I was right. :-)

Like I said, all that effort and a kid with a stamped steel Flexi cleans your clock.
 
Texas doesn't have enough chassis builders left over from "the day" to form a base for the class. Most racers are racers, not builders.
 
If more than half the racers don't build, there's no scratchbuilt class.
If racers build, it's all good... but I have no interest in incentivizing a race program that takes a major component in the class, the chassis, and gives the money to those who sell online and don't sell at normal discount to raceways.
 
There's been enough of that occurring with high-end wing cars to completely kill it at the raceway level.
What we now run at the raceway level is a glorified Womp: spec chassis, spec motor, spec tires... the only way to hinder the "Pro"guy from whereever from selling your customer a "special" car.
 
Glad you like my Engleman, so do I... even though I've had the opportunity four times to replace it with a King track for free. Wonder why used King tracks are free? ;-)


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#63 MSwiss

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 12:03 PM

Like I said, all that effort and a kid with a stamped steel Flexi cleans your clock.


Guys aren't buying RetroPro chassis and cars, to go out and run in Saturday afternoon fever, "Let's line 'em up," kind of races.
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#64 Tim Neja

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 12:32 PM

You're "disdain" for Retro shows through so clearly, Jim – that I doubt ANYONE could have successful program for it at your track! It's very simple – no support from the track owner will destroy any racing program. Self-fullfilling prophecy! 


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#65 Half Fast

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 12:57 PM

:good: :good: Tim
 
Yes, Jim, the NERRA, GRRA, SERRA, Retro East, and SCRRA will never succeed! Just ignore the turn-out all of these organizations have at their regularly scheduled races.
 
60+ entries at each Retro East race.
 
Cheers to the Retro racers.
 
Jeers to the naysayers.
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#66 mgerbetz

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:28 PM

My love for Retro began with watching a local track owner "tinkering around" with building his own chassis with no jig. Just some graph paper, iron, Dremel, wire, and brass.

As a matter of fact, all the interests in new classes came from the track owner.

It started with Can-Am, and then you're hooked. Anglewinder is a growth from other classes and a blast from the past.

I like the challenge of a different class to run. Fun!!

Mikey


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#67 Richard G With

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

All I can add to this is the fact that Dallas Slot Cars has good racing in many classes and gets full tracks most every race day. The Ohio, Great Lakes, etc. RETRO series get good turn-out, and I have started sending cars to my old buddy John Sutherland to race at Modelville in Massachusetts. They race IRRA® Retro on one of their five tracks just about every week! Hoping to get one of my Can-Am cars on their Purple Sovereign soon.
 
As far as the mail order complaint, I buy most of my Retro stuff through DSC. My wing car stuff is bought as much as possible through Raytown where I race those cars.
 
I do sometimes buy things through the mail order suppliers but only after checking whether one of my two "local tracks" has it or can get it. I'm not interested in antagonizing my dealers!
 
And if I ever get to a position where anyone wants to buy any of my stuff, I will make sure the track gets a cut.


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#68 YetiSRP

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:21 PM

Ok...

 

Hypothetically speaking; what if there was this guy, guy's been around the block a few times and this guy used to build a LOT of anglewinder frames. I mean, a LOT. And racers still have this guy's frames because they held up through the years. What if this guy, hypothetically speaking, thought about building some anglewinder frames again, you know, with the .063" front axle that used the cheaper front wheels? Build stuff that is relatively a lot cheaper than other frames? Cuz', you know, he built them before. And they we're available through distributors cuz' there are a couple that would?

 

Hypothetically speaking, of course...


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#69 Racer36

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:56 PM

Honeycutt sounds like Mike Fleming with a Texas twang. Why is it that guys who don't like Retro, or wing, or flexi racing have to piss in the porridge of those who do like those classes. I don't care what you race or where you race it, just grow the sport. As far as the Boo Birds, piss off and go bother someone else.
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#70 Cheater

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 03:53 PM

This thread train is teetering on the rails a little, guys. Lets keep it civil, please.

IMO JimHT is not a racer (any more, that is), he's a businessman who happens to have operated successful raceway for a very long time. And I believe that rather than chide him, we should listen to his viewpoint and try to understand it even if it isn't synchronized with your racer's viewpoint.

He understands that the active racing programs in a raceway represent on average 15-20% of the facility's revenue stream. Racers, as a rule, never acknowledge that but then they don't have to worry about making the rent payment each month.

Let's face it, even with the success Retro racing has achieved, it is still only a small niche in a very small hobby. And to be honest, it has not seen the kind of success in the slot racing arena that slot drag racing has in recent years. Yes, there are pockets of great Retro activity, but not that many.

The only quibble I have with JimHt is this:
 

Like I said, all that effort and a kid with a stamped steel Flexi cleans your clock.


Yep, sounds just like an old wing racer, most of whom feel that speed is the only important factor.

Note to JimHT: Nope, it is not. IMO, of course...


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#71 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:09 PM

Hey, Racer36,

 

I like all sorts of slot cars and have been doing so for 53 years. Please don't twist what I say to justify a rant for your attitude of "your way or the highway" or your dislike of Mike Fleming, whoever he is.

 

I promote both what I like and what keeps my raceway in business... sometimes the two are contradictory... like my being a speed-crazed moron since I started and also trying to pay the rent seven days a week.

 

Try re-reading what I said and consider that I'm responding to both the question that started the thread and Richard's response to my comment.

 

BTW, it's not a sport and never has been, generally those that think it's a sport don't hang around long.


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#72 Samiam

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:43 PM

Retro racers buy tires (fronts, too), motors, braid, bodies, axles, crown and pinion gears, spacers, guides, leadwire, ball bearings, lead, pins, controllers, lane stickers,decals....well you get the point. Oh! They buy chassis kits, soldering acid, brass and piano wire. All stuff the raceway sells.

 

Just sayin'. 


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#73 tonyp

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:44 PM

Plus no pay-outs at the races. More money for raceway.


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#74 Samiam

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:00 PM

And let's not forget there are four classes in IRRA racing. Stock Cars,Coupes,Can-Am and F-1. And show me one racer who only has one of each. They have multiple cars for each class. 

 

Yeah, many racers buy rollers from pro builders. But just as many decide to jump into the scratch building fray and join the ranks of the finger burners.

 

As a racer if all I could race was a spec'd out IROC car, I'd probably find another hobby.   

 

I forgot to add boxes,tools,paint,snacks and soda to the list of profit generating merch us retro guys buy from the raceway. Yeah...Right! No money in retro. DUH! :crazy:  


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Sam Levitch
 
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#75 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:34 PM

Aw, you guys are so defensive and judgmental.  :D 

I'll try not to be so acerbic.

Really, I and all the Raceway owners around the country really appreciate your listings of all the ways you're just trying to help us out.

I just don't know how anyone could possibly fail in this business with all this support.  :laugh2: 

 

Anyway...Retro is not any sort of salvation for 1/24 scale commercial slot car racing; it's just another racing class composed of a collection of parts that everyone agrees to use in accordance with a rules set.

 

I really enjoy seeing the suspenders and gray hair at the Retro races (more than the line-up for wing cars, which looks more like biker funeral).

If you like it because it brings back fond memories and camaraderie, fine.

I think those that like it and those that promote it are fine folks. However, it's not for everyone.

 

To me it's just another way to keep racers interested...one of the umpteen programs we've come up with through the years that combines racing with some sort of car that's more sophisticated than a Cox Chaparral or a Classic Manta Ray. Is it successful, meh...more than some, less than others.

 

So, what's the problem with an anglewinder Retro program?

 

Anglewinder scratch-builts came along after inline scratch-builts and were proportionally way fewer in number and participants.

The same proportions exist now and probably will continue to do so.

Anglewinders appeared when the SCM's took over, mea culpa.

Anglewinders are a compromise to get more speed, inlines aren't.

 

 

My comparison of Flexis to any sort of scratch-built is to show the sophistication of Flexis nowadays, not to denigrate Retro. Retro as I said is a racing class, not a car.

Flexis are cheap go-fast...an easy sell. A slot toy that does what it should.

And, please, don't confuse racing with the business of slot cars or the business of staying in business.

Any raceway can make more money by renting the track to a Birthday party than having a race.

 

If your Raceway has races it's because the guy behind the counter really wants to have races, not because of the racers.


Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#76 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:40 PM

Ok...

 

Hypothetically speaking; what if there was this guy, guy's been around the block a few times and this guy used to build a LOT of anglewinder frames. I mean, a LOT. And racers still have this guy's frames because they held up through the years. What if this guy, hypothetically speaking, thought about building some anglewinder frames again, you know, with the .063" front axle that used the cheaper front wheels? Build stuff that is relatively a lot cheaper than other frames? Cuz', you know, he built them before. And they we're available through distributors cuz' there are a couple that would?

 

Hypothetically speaking, of course...

 

Hypothetically speaking, build one, get it in the hands of a top RetroPro racer, see how it does and go from there.


"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#77 Samiam

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:50 PM

And, please, don't confuse racing with the business of slot cars or the business of staying in business.

 

I won't, if you don't confuse a thread about the popularity or the lack there of of a particular type of Retro car, with the running of a raceway and all the woes that go with it.

 

Every time possible, you espouse your feelings about Retro racing. Hence the Mike Flemming reference. 


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#78 mgerbetz

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:02 PM

So, getting back...

Why isn't it more popular?

Well, for me it is the third class I will get into after Can-Am and F1. It has taken me some time to have the money for a third Retro class.

I do like the difference in the car; lighter, different build, motor, angled, different body. It is a different drive/animal.

I think a lot of guys are like me. Not many jump straight into​ an anglewinder.

If I were a shop owner, the anglewinder class would be after the others, maybe even after the Stock Car class, too.

I do like the class. fun!


Michael Gerbetz

#79 Samiam

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

One thing that holds back another class at Retro East events is time. With four fully-fielded classes being run now, there is just no demand. It seems Retro has settled into the pre-anglewinder era for the most part. 

 

Oh... and oil, tire conditioner, braid juice, and chassis and body mounting fixtures. Boy! The $12 profit you don't get from selling them a new "flexi" chassis is starting to look like chump change. 


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#80 Half Fast

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:51 PM

On a number of occasions, Retro East race days have lasted from 7 AM (doors open) until after midnight (end of last A Main). As Sam says, there simply is no time for another class.

 

Tracks with more than one track continue to rent cars to walk-ins during the races. So don't tell me that isn't a good day for the track owner.

 

Cheers.


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#81 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 07:01 PM

Why are anglewinders less popular? to some extent because nobody puts them on the race program. How many people are going to build a class of car that is not raced. Hay the current formula is working pretty well so I am not saying throw it out and change, but if anglewinder was on the program all the time most dedicated retro racers would have one or two. I know we have just so much time and you can't run everything. Like I said the current formula is working pretty well.

 

 As to them being harder to build. I am not so sure about that being a big drawback. 99% of the builders that can build a serviceable Can-Am inline could build an anglewinder. As to durability I don't think the inlines would hold up well with Group 12 motors so what is different.

 

 When I started back building I said I was going to build an anglewinder. I have not built it. It still sounds like a good idea.


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#82 NSwanberg

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 02:36 AM

Why don't we pit flexis against Retro Anglewinders?? I would get real kick out of scratchbuilding an aanglewinder to run with the flexis. Let them run heads up with the same motors and same class of bodies. Seems like everybody would get what they want this way,


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#83 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 06:49 AM

Why are anglewinders less popular?


For me, the answer is simple: Wells Law applies.

What is that?

"The faster the slot car, the fewer the number of people who will want to play with it."
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#84 Bill from NH

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 07:07 AM

There is a reason why they sucessfully run wing cars with FK cans. The same could have been done by the governing bodies of Retro.

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#85 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 07:44 AM

And, Bill, that situation illustrates the applicability of Wells' Law in my view.

The same could have been done by the governing bodies of Retro.


For what purpose? Seems to me that wing cars would be anathema to the majority of the Retro 'audience.'

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#86 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 07:58 AM

For me, the answer is simple: Wells Law applies.

What is that?

"The faster the slot car, the fewer the number of people who will want to play with it."


In general I would agree with Wells' law, but taking that to the absurd why don't we replace all the Retro Hawks with Mini Brutes or some such? All the Retro classes should be even more popular.

Back to reality if you overpower a class or make it too expensive it will be less popular (you can make it expensive in money and/or time).  
 
I think the anglewinder rules are flawed. That being said I don't want to change the program that is working with the existing classes in Retro and in particular IRRA® Retro.


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Posted 29 March 2017 - 09:19 AM

In general I would agree with Wells' law, but taking that to the absurd why don't we replace all the Retro Hawks with Mini Brutes or some such? All the Retro classes should be even more popular.


To start, I do believe that Retro racing would see increased overall participation if we took, oh, half a second or a bit more off the lap times. My fellow IRRA® BoD members will confirm my saying almost from the beginning that there is a danger in letting the cars get too fast. But I am just about the only one who feels this way and will probably get flamed for saying it again here.

 

That being said, the success of IRRA® racing has been generated by a combination of many factors that has been tweaked, tuned, and optimized, just like a racer does with his slot car. Making a major change to one aspect will almost certainly generate unintended consequences in other areas. How many times have you heard someone suggest that making just one 'change' would lead to more participation? I don't think I've ever seen that actually happen in all my years in 1/24 slot racing...

 

And if, say, dumping the Hawk Retro for the Hawk MB did increase participation, just how many more racers can the R4 and other big races accommodate? Maybe it would help local and regional series numbers, but it could have a negative effect on the big races, who might then elect to make their three-day events a four or five-day event, with consequences ensuing from that change.

 

It would be an interesting experiment to try Hawk MBs in a single class at a big race, say AM GTC or F1. And if the raceway landscape does migrate to shorter, tighter tracks, as the prinicipal financial factors seem to suggest will have to be the case over the long run, going to a 'softer' motor in Retro will probably eventually occur.


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#88 Bill from NH

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 09:20 AM

For what purpose? Seems to me that wing cars would be anathema to the majority of the Retro 'audience.'


You miss my point. Forget it, it's not that important.

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#89 Noose

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 10:20 AM

Greg,

FWIW the MB motor is the one used in Jail Door which is really ancient Retro and essentially replaces the Falcon 2 and Mini Brute motors. I would assume that it may become the replacement for the Mini Brute now used in NorCal. I seriously doubt it would increase participation though in IRRA® classes. The Hawk Retro is just fine and the recordbreaking we are seeing is not due to faster speeds of the motor. Tracks are being prepped much better allowing the use of Wonder rubber and cars are being set-up much better. 
 
My own dyno and track testing has not shown any differences in speed in the R or 7R versions. The biggest change out here has been due to track prep.


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#90 Jason Holmes

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 10:41 AM

It's not about cost. All three of the classes Can-Am, F1, and RetroPro cost about the same to play.

 

It is about the speed of the cars; some can't handle a RetroPro in SoCal. It's .6-.8 sec time difference from Can-Am and the way they must be driven is too much for them to take in. Because of the speed, the wall and the wallet outweigh the risk, because they do break quicker LOL. People just don't like beating their stuff up.

 

But I will play on.

 

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#91 Half Fast

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:12 AM

If you replaced the GP-12 motor with a Hawk Retro what would the time difference be?

 

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:14 AM

Noose,

Since we have discussed this topic many times before, I know you don't feel as I do.

I don't disagree with your points in the post above as to why the lap times keep coming down; in fact, I think you're spot-on.

And I wasn't saying that the motors used in Retro are the reason the lap times are getting faster; they're not.

But I do honestly believe if we let Retro cars get too fast, it will have a negative impact.

What benefit(s) is derived from Retro Can-Am cars running nearly half as fast as Open wing cars? We're approaching that now, as one set of numbers shows an IRRA® Retro Can-Am running better than 42% of the speed of an 2MO wing car.

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2MO fastest race lap - 1.697 secs, Bill Skinner, Barn Burner, 2/26/17

IMHO we'd see closer racing, with a greater emphasis on driver skill, if the cars were half a second or so slower on the average track. I think chassis design and construction would be less important with a slightly slower motor and less stuff would get torn up.

Wells' Law was something I posted (mostly with tongue in cheek) many years ago, but to date (over a decade) no one has ever challenged it with any single data point, from any scale or kind of slot racing, to show where it didn't apply.

And as I said, I know am the very nearly the only person brave (or stupid) enough) to say slower might be better, or the converse, that faster is almost never better, but I do.


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#93 Cap Henry

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:23 AM

You have to be careful how slow you make something. Slow the cars down that much and the skill level required would go down greatly.


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#94 Jason Holmes

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:23 AM

Bill 

 

The Hawk Retro would not work well as a slower replacement for RetroPro; no or way less brakes. Maybe the PS/FK would work as a replacement and then the cars would be .3 to.4 faster than Can-Am.

 

jason



#95 Noose

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:26 AM

Greg,

 

That's Port Jeff, a known speedbowl. Look at Hillclimbs like Fast Tracks. My TQ record stood for almost three years. Track prepped better and bingo it was broken.


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#96 bbr

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:30 AM

The RetroPro class cars in the SCRRA are a monster to drive... that's why I love them.


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#97 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:32 AM

You have to be careful how slow you make something. Slow the cars down that much and .


That's an interesting claim, Cap, and doesn't jive with my experience racing much slower cars in the past. Some of the closest racing I can ever recall was 1/32 Parma Intl 32 cars with Plafit Cheetahs on a American orange.

And exactly why would having "the skill level required... go down greatly" be a negative?

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#98 Cap Henry

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:39 AM

Racing on an orange and a King aren't the same thing, neither is a Intl 32 vs. a Retro Can-Am. It's a negative when it becomes boring.

The other issue that comes to light is motors, slow the cars down half a second and instantly everyone wants more motor.


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#99 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:39 AM

That's Port Jeff, a known speedbowl. Look at Hillclimbs like Fast Tracks. My TQ record stood for almost three years. Track prepped better and bingo it was broken.


Do they even race wing cars at Fast Tracks? Just where do they even race wing cars on somehing other than a speedbowl? Suggest some other track for which lap times between open wing cars and Retro Can-Am cars is readily available and we can widen the data set.

And I think you're missing the point entirely... which has nothing to do with the actual lowering of lap times from year to year in IRRA® Retro racing.


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#100 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:43 AM

Racing on an orange and a King aren't the same thing, neither is a Intl 32 vs. a Retro Can-Am. It's a negative when it becomes boring.

The other issue that comes to light is motors, slow the cars down half a second and instantly everyone wants more motor.


Personally, I've never found close, tight racing to have been boring, regardless of the speed. Wonder if the Cup guys feel racing at Martinsville is boring; it's sure a lot slower than racing Auto Club.

And if everyone has to run the same motor, "it's the same for everyone."
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