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Retro anglewinders


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#101 Noose

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:44 AM

Wing car racing is a moot point, Greg. I would not compare it at all. 

The comparison to a RetroPro and regular Can-Am is significant and not all want to go as fast as a RetroPro. Why?  Mostly because we are a lot older and the reflexes are not there any more. I can tell you driving one at SpeedZone, Port Jeff, and St. Maarten was a handful for me. At PJ they go stupid fast and it is a three-blip track.


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#102 Cap Henry

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:51 AM

Auto Club to Martinsville aren't the same as your example. Your example is the same as taking out the fuel injected V8 and dropping a Honda Civic motor in it. While yes, the racing experience can be exciting still, the driving experience, not as much.

And yes, everyone is running the same motor, my point was that search for that magic motor that's slightly faster is magnified at slower speeds, because as we all know these motors aren't all the same.


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#103 Half Fast

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 12:09 PM

The qualifying lap in Retro Pro at RP7 at Port Jeff was 3.084 :shok: by Chubby. The best lap of Hillbilly box  (Gp 12 motor light weight wing car with full air control) at the Barnburner. was 2.296.

 

Unless you have the skill level of Chubby (current group 7 World champion) hanging on to a Retro Pro is damn near impossible. Especially if you're a Geezer. :)

 

Cheers


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#104 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 12:16 PM

Noose, I wasn't comparing cars, I was comparing speeds.

The take-away I'm getting is that you basically don't believe Wells' Law has applicability to Retro and that's fine.

Cap, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The guys I see racing pretty slowly at the Andretti Kart Centers or at the SCCA Solo events seem to be having pretty enjoyable and even exciting driving experiences.

Speed is indeed addictive, but I don't believe there is a direct correlation between speed and exciting racing.

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#105 Cap Henry

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 12:26 PM

The biggest problem with all your examples to your half a second slower example is karts, autocross, etc., are a matched pair, motor to car capability, so yes they're fun to drive. You're taking a car capable of going much faster and slowing it down, so the car will be driven wide open/punched even more.

 

Can-Am on an American King with only micro blips twice a lap doesn't sound real exciting.


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#106 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 12:58 PM

I'll acknowledge your last point, as I have experienced that sort of situation on an Ogilvie King racing Flexis with sealed 501s. On the right day, in black you could sometimes lap full punched, without blipping at all. And even in a racing situation, that was a little boring.

 

But let me make two small points of my own...

 

At R4/2, there were very few racers running in the 4.8 range; most were 4.9 or higher even in the A Main. So eight years ago, the Can-Ams at the R4 were almost half a second slower. I don't recall that the racing was any less exciting that year.

 

And the line of discussion here seems to have assumed that the only way to slow the cars a little would be to mandate a slower motor and that's simply not accurate. There are other ways to do it, perhaps .062" clearance front and rear, narrower rear tires, etc.

 

I still firmly believe, just as Noose and others have suggested above, that there are racers who don't race RetroPro/Retro AW because the cars are too fast for them, there are racers who leave or never start Retro for the same reason.


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#107 Noose

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 01:05 PM

I seriously doubt, Greg, racers do not race Retro because the cars are too fast. Almost all of the new people we have racing come from running flexi cars that are much faster. Some don't race because they are too slow for them as compared to what they were doing. Some don't race Retro, and to me this is a huge point, because their local raceway does not have a weekly or monthly racing program for it. 

 

Look at Port Jeff. Since they now run weekly the increase of participants in our series is a lot. That of course was helped by the fact that that these racers were helped and educated by guys like Chubby and Edsel. 


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#108 Cap Henry

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 01:38 PM

Well, you brought up slower motors, Greg LOL. There is a huge difference between slowing the cars down with motors, vs. all the other stuff. Making the cars harder to drive to slow them down surely won't get more people involved though LOL.

And the cars at previous R4s weren't slower because of slower motors, it was because of different track prep, lower downforce, and less developed chassis. So yes, just as exciting to drive.


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#109 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 01:38 PM

Déjà vu all over again...

Noose, I can assure you I know of people who have quit Retro largely because of the speed of the cars (combined wih other reasons, as is usually the case) and others who won't participate in Retro because they feel the cars are too fast for them. No names because you I am reasonably certain you still wouldn't likely be change your position.

Let me ask you this: Should Retro's target 'audience' be only those individuals who have raced in other 1/24 commercial raceway classes? Is it worth considering that tweaking the 'formula' to have more appeal to model car racers in other genres might bring in new blood from outside the circle of 1/24 racers? If you with an open mind checked in with active 1/32 racers or even HO guys (who often never leave their garages and basements) I think it is highly likely you might hear different viewpoints.


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#110 Cheater

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 01:48 PM

Well, you brought up slower motors, Greg LOL.


I did indeed, but didn't state it was the only way. Just said it would be an interesting way to test the concept.

Don't forget the disaster that was predicted by many when it was R4/announced the R4/10 was moving to hand-outs for the Can-Am class. That experiment generated quite different results as compared to the predictions many made, didn't it?
 

Making the cars harder to drive to slow them down surely won't get more people involved though LOL.


Making Retro cars harder to drive than flexis doesn't seem to have had the effect you are predicting for sightly-slower Retro cars.

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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#111 Phil Hackett

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 02:03 PM

Most tracks have power supplies now days. Instead of putting in slower motors just turn down the power 1 to 1.5, maybe even 2 volts... but then that would upset those people who've gone through dozens (hundreds maybe?) of motors to find the rockets that work on a spec power level.
 
If more involvement is the key then you need to see the cars are *still* too complicated. It still needs a "technician" to tune the cars to be competitive and *everyone* want to be competitive regardless what they *say*.
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#112 Noose

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 02:06 PM

If you with an open mind checked in with active 1/32 racers or even HO guys (who often never leave their garages and basements) I think it is highly likely you might hear different viewpoints.


Greg,

You might want to read Slotblog and race reports because those are the exact guys we are getting. One in fact stopped commercial racing due to people and not the cars. He now travels a really long distance to our races.  We have guys who race hardbody cars routinely that now race Retro. We have HO guys that now race Retro. We have 1/32 guys guys that now race Retro.

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#113 The Number of

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

Think the horse that is dead has been beat enough? Not everyone likes anglewinders. Not everyone likes Justin Beiber either. Just put this down as the Great Anglewinder Scare of 2017 and move on. :) 

Hand-out motors at the R4 really have nothing to do with this!
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#114 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 02:27 PM

Yes, the topic has gone off track from the original question of why are anglewinders not popular.
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#115 tonyp

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 03:23 PM

We don't run them here in Florida because we really have no tracks big enough. All Hillclimbs and the road course at Holly Hill.

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#116 Jason Holmes

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 03:48 PM

What it boils down to is Reflex's and speed.

 I think I can still do it as far as Retro Pro

 

I  just had both Rotor Cuff's repaired in 4 month time Doc asked me before doing the Left 2nd one why so soon I told him I wanted to be ready to Pitch in May for softball and for the last 10 yrs it hurt a lot to throw and protect my Nose and Nut's LOL  from all the kids that are 1/3 my age so all about SPEED and Reflex 

 

jason

 

we in Socal have raced Retro Pro on our Flat track at BPR its like driving a hand full GT12  not the same R/P chassis you run on a King about 10-12 grams heavier   Tony take one of your R/P chassis and put .032  full pans on and and PS/FK in it and go play bet it would be a blast 







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