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Retro anglewinders


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#51 Richard G With

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

Here are pics copied from DSC's Facebook page of last Saturday's Anglewinder/RetroPro.

 

And one of my builds:

 

d1.jpg
 

DSCAngle1.jpg

 

AW2.jpg

 

AW1.jpg

 

 


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 





#52 Richard G With

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 05:07 PM

Referring back to Steve's post #4:

I thought the latest IRRA rules DID change to JKRH motors across the board, including Anglewinder?


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#53 YetiSRP

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 06:35 PM

Ok...

 

My head hurts.

 

First, my pictured frame is 'too heavy by today's standards' but you took off the .063" axle and added a 3/32" then put weight on it. Then someone just posted they're selling a Tony P. anglewinder that weights 41 grams with front wheels and guide but there was talk here of full cars being north of 100 grams.

 

And Richard posted pics of 3 cars, the top 2 finishers having full pans on them.

 

I'm corn-fuzed!

 

Apples and oranges?


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#54 YetiSRP

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 06:46 PM

Or as I tell Bud Bartos, paraphrasing the last line in the film, 'Chinatown'...

 

'Forget Bud. It's slot racing,'


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#55 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 06:47 PM

Sorry, Jim,

 

Two different anglewinder races we're talking about here.  

 

The chassis I posted of yours would fit well in today's anglewinder Coupe race held on the flat track at Buena Park Raceway and a few other organizations around the country. Those cars usually come in between 105-120 grams.  

 

The RetroPro chassis built by Dennis Samson, Hi Tech, and others are much lighter, running 70-80 grams complete using Pro Slot X12 motors on the blue King track.

 

Samson RetroPro.jpg


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#56 Half Fast

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 07:00 PM

Why aren't AW's more popular?

 

Because with modern inline chassis and tires, inline chassis are plenty fast enough. No need for extra complications

 

Cheers


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#57 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 07:09 PM

That seems to be the norm.
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#58 TG Racing

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 08:53 AM

I think once people try them (not overpowered) they will realize they aren't that hard to drive. 

Are they harder to build? A little but there are plenty of great builders ready to start the next wave.
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#59 Noose

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:02 AM

I thought the latest IRRA rules DID change to JKRH motors across the board, including Anglewinder?

 

Correct. The ORS class is their own. At some Premier events the RetroPro rlass is run using the SCRRA rules with some minor changes to include:

  • There is no body height rule.
  • Spoilers maximum allowed height is now 1/2 inch.
  • X12, Big Dog and PS-FK motors are allowed and motor types may not be mixed.
  • Front wheels may only be enclosed by the chassis on a maximum three sides - front, back, or inside. Never the outside edge.

The point on mixing is that a racer cannot put an X12 arm in a PS-FK can.
 
PS: I have run this class several times with the X12 motors and they are a rush for sure. Also easily destroyed. LOL.


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#60 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 09:44 AM

Number one reason why this class doesn't appeal:

 

All that effort and all one comes up with is a car that is no better than a Flexi, but much harder to build and way more expensive to buy (keep in mind that large numbers of retrobate racers do not scratchbuild chassis).

 

Enhancing the motor may eliminate stamped steel... but then the long accepted alternative is spring steel, rather than the fragile scratchbuilt.

 

Scratchbuilt chassis that are either more expensive or more fragile or both, why bother?


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#61 Richard G With

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:05 AM

Jim H:

 

I don't think cost is that much of a factor.

 

Again I'm speaking from my own rules bubble of RETRO at Dallas but there are local builders who sell their work at reasonable prices (not much more, if any than for an in-line chassis). From a builder viewpoint, it's actually less costly to build a RETRO AW car because the cheap o-ring wheels and guide tongue are the only commercial components needed. Also, RETRO AW with the o-ring 1/16 axle wheels only take two ball bearings instead of six (not counting the motor). Yes, the Big Dog motor is more costly compared to the PSFK but it isn't necessary to buy 12 to get a couple good ones and they can be rebuilt instead of thrown away. The rest can be scrap tube, sheet and wire that most builders are likely to have laying around anyway. For IRRA cars, it's still a little less $ investment in the chassis (no bracket) compared to in-lines. And, if the RETRO decides to allow Neo magnets, the Big Dog motor could be essentially a recycle of worn out PSFK motors with a better arm.

 

The supposed "fragility" is hard to quantify. Light weight does not necessarily equate to fragile. Crash protection is a designer decision that all builders in all classes have to decide on. If you want to build a heavier car that protects itself better in crashes, there's no reason not to do that. It is probably a good decision depending on what kind of track and environment you are intending to race.

 

In any case, the reason I like this class is that I enjoy building stuff. The more personal involvement I have in the design/build/race product the more enjoyable it is for me. I don't like stamped steel classes as much because they don't require this kind of skill and involvement. That's not to say I look down on any class of racing, it's just  that I enjoy Retro and particularly Anglewinders . I still run Flexi and "Group F" at Raytown, and enjoy that too, just for different reasons.

 

By the way, Jim, what Retro classes and rules do you race at your place? I always enjoyed that track in it's previous location so many years ago.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#62 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:54 AM

Serious attempts in Retro in this area made by John Myers years ago... I told him he'd wind up watching mostly cars he built run around the track, I was right. :-)

Like I said, all that effort and a kid with a stamped steel Flexi cleans your clock.
 
Texas doesn't have enough chassis builders left over from "the day" to form a base for the class. Most racers are racers, not builders.
 
If more than half the racers don't build, there's no scratchbuilt class.
If racers build, it's all good... but I have no interest in incentivizing a race program that takes a major component in the class, the chassis, and gives the money to those who sell online and don't sell at normal discount to raceways.
 
There's been enough of that occurring with high-end wing cars to completely kill it at the raceway level.
What we now run at the raceway level is a glorified Womp: spec chassis, spec motor, spec tires... the only way to hinder the "Pro"guy from whereever from selling your customer a "special" car.
 
Glad you like my Engleman, so do I... even though I've had the opportunity four times to replace it with a King track for free. Wonder why used King tracks are free? ;-)


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#63 MSwiss

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 12:03 PM

Like I said, all that effort and a kid with a stamped steel Flexi cleans your clock.


Guys aren't buying RetroPro chassis and cars, to go out and run in Saturday afternoon fever, "Let's line 'em up," kind of races.
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#64 Tim Neja

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 12:32 PM

You're "disdain" for Retro shows through so clearly, Jim – that I doubt ANYONE could have successful program for it at your track! It's very simple – no support from the track owner will destroy any racing program. Self-fullfilling prophecy! 


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#65 Half Fast

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 12:57 PM

:good: :good: Tim
 
Yes, Jim, the NERRA, GRRA, SERRA, Retro East, and SCRRA will never succeed! Just ignore the turn-out all of these organizations have at their regularly scheduled races.
 
60+ entries at each Retro East race.
 
Cheers to the Retro racers.
 
Jeers to the naysayers.
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#66 mgerbetz

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:28 PM

My love for Retro began with watching a local track owner "tinkering around" with building his own chassis with no jig. Just some graph paper, iron, Dremel, wire, and brass.

As a matter of fact, all the interests in new classes came from the track owner.

It started with Can-Am, and then you're hooked. Anglewinder is a growth from other classes and a blast from the past.

I like the challenge of a different class to run. Fun!!

Mikey


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#67 Richard G With

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

All I can add to this is the fact that Dallas Slot Cars has good racing in many classes and gets full tracks most every race day. The Ohio, Great Lakes, etc. RETRO series get good turn-out, and I have started sending cars to my old buddy John Sutherland to race at Modelville in Massachusetts. They race IRRA® Retro on one of their five tracks just about every week! Hoping to get one of my Can-Am cars on their Purple Sovereign soon.
 
As far as the mail order complaint, I buy most of my Retro stuff through DSC. My wing car stuff is bought as much as possible through Raytown where I race those cars.
 
I do sometimes buy things through the mail order suppliers but only after checking whether one of my two "local tracks" has it or can get it. I'm not interested in antagonizing my dealers!
 
And if I ever get to a position where anyone wants to buy any of my stuff, I will make sure the track gets a cut.


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      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#68 YetiSRP

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:21 PM

Ok...

 

Hypothetically speaking; what if there was this guy, guy's been around the block a few times and this guy used to build a LOT of anglewinder frames. I mean, a LOT. And racers still have this guy's frames because they held up through the years. What if this guy, hypothetically speaking, thought about building some anglewinder frames again, you know, with the .063" front axle that used the cheaper front wheels? Build stuff that is relatively a lot cheaper than other frames? Cuz', you know, he built them before. And they we're available through distributors cuz' there are a couple that would?

 

Hypothetically speaking, of course...


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#69 Racer36

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:56 PM

Honeycutt sounds like Mike Fleming with a Texas twang. Why is it that guys who don't like Retro, or wing, or flexi racing have to piss in the porridge of those who do like those classes. I don't care what you race or where you race it, just grow the sport. As far as the Boo Birds, piss off and go bother someone else.
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#70 Cheater

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 03:53 PM

This thread train is teetering on the rails a little, guys. Lets keep it civil, please.

IMO JimHT is not a racer (any more, that is), he's a businessman who happens to have operated successful raceway for a very long time. And I believe that rather than chide him, we should listen to his viewpoint and try to understand it even if it isn't synchronized with your racer's viewpoint.

He understands that the active racing programs in a raceway represent on average 15-20% of the facility's revenue stream. Racers, as a rule, never acknowledge that but then they don't have to worry about making the rent payment each month.

Let's face it, even with the success Retro racing has achieved, it is still only a small niche in a very small hobby. And to be honest, it has not seen the kind of success in the slot racing arena that slot drag racing has in recent years. Yes, there are pockets of great Retro activity, but not that many.

The only quibble I have with JimHt is this:
 

Like I said, all that effort and a kid with a stamped steel Flexi cleans your clock.


Yep, sounds just like an old wing racer, most of whom feel that speed is the only important factor.

Note to JimHT: Nope, it is not. IMO, of course...


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#71 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:09 PM

Hey, Racer36,

 

I like all sorts of slot cars and have been doing so for 53 years. Please don't twist what I say to justify a rant for your attitude of "your way or the highway" or your dislike of Mike Fleming, whoever he is.

 

I promote both what I like and what keeps my raceway in business... sometimes the two are contradictory... like my being a speed-crazed moron since I started and also trying to pay the rent seven days a week.

 

Try re-reading what I said and consider that I'm responding to both the question that started the thread and Richard's response to my comment.

 

BTW, it's not a sport and never has been, generally those that think it's a sport don't hang around long.


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#72 Samiam

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:43 PM

Retro racers buy tires (fronts, too), motors, braid, bodies, axles, crown and pinion gears, spacers, guides, leadwire, ball bearings, lead, pins, controllers, lane stickers,decals....well you get the point. Oh! They buy chassis kits, soldering acid, brass and piano wire. All stuff the raceway sells.

 

Just sayin'. 


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#73 tonyp

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:44 PM

Plus no pay-outs at the races. More money for raceway.


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#74 Samiam

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:00 PM

And let's not forget there are four classes in IRRA racing. Stock Cars,Coupes,Can-Am and F-1. And show me one racer who only has one of each. They have multiple cars for each class. 

 

Yeah, many racers buy rollers from pro builders. But just as many decide to jump into the scratch building fray and join the ranks of the finger burners.

 

As a racer if all I could race was a spec'd out IROC car, I'd probably find another hobby.   

 

I forgot to add boxes,tools,paint,snacks and soda to the list of profit generating merch us retro guys buy from the raceway. Yeah...Right! No money in retro. DUH! :crazy:  


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#75 jimht

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:34 PM

Aw, you guys are so defensive and judgmental.  :D 

I'll try not to be so acerbic.

Really, I and all the Raceway owners around the country really appreciate your listings of all the ways you're just trying to help us out.

I just don't know how anyone could possibly fail in this business with all this support.  :laugh2: 

 

Anyway...Retro is not any sort of salvation for 1/24 scale commercial slot car racing; it's just another racing class composed of a collection of parts that everyone agrees to use in accordance with a rules set.

 

I really enjoy seeing the suspenders and gray hair at the Retro races (more than the line-up for wing cars, which looks more like biker funeral).

If you like it because it brings back fond memories and camaraderie, fine.

I think those that like it and those that promote it are fine folks. However, it's not for everyone.

 

To me it's just another way to keep racers interested...one of the umpteen programs we've come up with through the years that combines racing with some sort of car that's more sophisticated than a Cox Chaparral or a Classic Manta Ray. Is it successful, meh...more than some, less than others.

 

So, what's the problem with an anglewinder Retro program?

 

Anglewinder scratch-builts came along after inline scratch-builts and were proportionally way fewer in number and participants.

The same proportions exist now and probably will continue to do so.

Anglewinders appeared when the SCM's took over, mea culpa.

Anglewinders are a compromise to get more speed, inlines aren't.

 

 

My comparison of Flexis to any sort of scratch-built is to show the sophistication of Flexis nowadays, not to denigrate Retro. Retro as I said is a racing class, not a car.

Flexis are cheap go-fast...an easy sell. A slot toy that does what it should.

And, please, don't confuse racing with the business of slot cars or the business of staying in business.

Any raceway can make more money by renting the track to a Birthday party than having a race.

 

If your Raceway has races it's because the guy behind the counter really wants to have races, not because of the racers.


Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]






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