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JK Hawk aluminum endbell questions


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 06:17 AM

Who has used them, and do they take the stock hoods?

 

Also, what bearings and can attachment screws? I assume the can screws are 0-80, but regular steel?  

 

The brief encounter I had with anodized aluminum hoods I had in the past produced shorts, but the hoods were used.

 

-john


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#2 wbugenis

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 01:14 PM

John,
 
Aluminum endbels  are pretty much all that is used in Eurosport and higher level wing cars. Any cobalt magnet motor will also use aluminum endbells.
 
Anyone making Al endbells should have the hardware he wants to use in mind when he designs the endbell. 
 
Use the aluminum anoidized flat head screws with the insulating washer under the head to attach brush hoods and spring cups. Koford sells a yellow epoxy to secure these screws.
 
For can screws, flat head steel 0-80 screws are often used always withh a thread locker.
 
Shorts, in practice are not as much a problem as you might imagine. Any short that produces an arc will also form an insulating oxide in the aluminum.
 
Swiss is the go to guy for expert advice on aluminum endbells.
 
I hope he will chime in.
William Bugenis

#3 MSwiss

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 01:45 PM

Bill,

I'm a little too busy at the moment to address this in any detail.

I thought I already gave John some advice in his long motor thread.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#4 wbugenis

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 01:55 PM

Thanks, Mike. 
 
Herre is the LINK.
William Bugenis

#5 havlicek

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 06:04 PM

Aluminum endbels  are pretty much all that is used in Eurosport and higher level wing cars. Any cobalt magnet motor will also use aluminum endbells.

 
Yes, Bill... I know that.  :)  I asked this:
 

Who has used them, and do they take the stock hoods?

 
... and nobody answered!

... and I asked this:
 

Also, what bearings?

 
... and nobody answered that either. I *assume* they're meant for just a 5mm unflanged bearing, but I normally don't use those, so before buying some and then having no use for them, I thought... "hey, why not just ask at Slotblog!?" I mean this with all due respect, and don't want to sound at all snarky, but you guys gave me a bunch of answers to questions I didn't ask, including a link to a thread where I asked different questions (which were answered)!

So, what hoods and bearing goes with these things? I have some of the tiny/expensive insulating washers. If applicable, some links would be nifty!   :D


John Havlicek

#6 wbugenis

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 06:18 PM

Sorry, John,

 

I am not aware of anyone currently making aluminum endbels for these motors yet. They have been made for C-cans. Somehow I had the impression one of the bloggers with access to a CNC machining center was going to give it a try but not curreently available as far as I know.  Certainly a challenging project!

 

In the event that someone were to accomplish this, he would laypout the hardware for some currently-available hardware like Koford or Cahoza.

 

Unflanged bearings are pretty much always used at this level.

 

Again, sorry if I missunderstood your question.

 

Bill 


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#7 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 06:27 PM

FYI:  JK 303031AL at $19.95 is readily available. Fits the JK and Pro Slot minicans. As far as I know uses standard 2 x 5 flanged bearings or bushings and is drilled for modern hardware that fits those motors.  he end forms a flange so an inner flange is not likely need.

 

Tim - did I get it all right? Please post a product photo and if the endbell is drilled for hardware or can and is supplied with either bushing or bearing.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
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#8 wbugenis

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 06:46 PM

Well there it is!

 

I just don't get out much any more.  :wacko2:


William Bugenis

#9 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 07:48 PM

Bill,

Since we are off topic...

Are you planning on going to the next Penn Jersey race?


David Parrotta

#10 wbugenis

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 07:52 PM

I thought Penn Jersey was done for the season.

 

Better call or PM before we get in more trouble.


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#11 havlicek

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 04:48 AM

 

 

FYI:  JK 303031AL at $19.95 is readily available . Fits the JK and Proslot minicans.  As far as I know uses standard 2 x 5 flanged bearings or bushings and is drilled for modern hardware that fits those motors.  The end forms a flange so an inner flange is not likely need.

 

Yep, I have one here that I got with a bunch of other Hawk stuff, but it's blank with no hoods.  I assume you use the regular bottom plates as well, but at least I'm on the trail of discovery :)  I had mentioned unflanged 5mm bearings before because the ones I have here won't fit into the tower.  Normally, I wouldn't see the purpose for such an end bell on a Hawk, as the normal "natural" or "white" end bell is both very light and very durable.  I think the stock end bell is most likely fine for some pretty hot winds.  I have some experiments/plans to do something pretty crazy with the Hawk, and think that the aluminum end bell might be good insurance with what I have in mind.  The rest of the motor, the can, magnets (ceramic, poly neos, and even those stoopid-strong "solid neos") and even the stack should be fine as a platform for anything from the current #30 wire all the way up to a mini-fire-breathing #25.  Certainly the com will need replacing, but I've done a fair number of hot winds using Bill Bugenis' coms on these motors and shortening them to fit.  It looks like I could maybe shorten the stack to .350" and keep the com at it's full height, which I see as a worthy thing to look at for the really hot stuff...OR...shorten the com and stay at around .400.

Anyway, I like the minicans from both ProSlot and JK.  They are of course very similar, but there are minor details I prefer about the Hawk.  On the other hand, both of them have that issue with the end bell bushings tending to get loose which needs addressing, but isn't all that tough to manage.  These motors (like the C can motors...which I still think is an even better general platform) are a solid basic platform for anything up to and including the big-wire stuff.  Even with *just* a 50/29 on such a short stack, the little Hawk is a serious motor.  With a #27 (*say around 36 turns, give or take), it starts to get positively frightening.  I *think* that #26 or #25 wire means pretty much a drag motor, but it could possibly support a fantasy "budget" open class.  I see no reason "so far" why racing the really faster type cars means $300 motors.  ***An otherwise stock Hawk (plastic or maybe aluminum end bell) with a #26 with an aluminum end bell seems like a worthy target to shoot for.  There are Koford Hawks with G20 arms and G12 arms for around $60, and that makes me think that pushing things even more could be "interesting".  Toss-in a bearing or two, and an aluminum end bell (if I can get one of the darned things to actually work  :) ), and $100 seems do-able.


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#12 Robert BG

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 04:53 PM

John,I was doing some thinking along the same lines and I recently asked for some help on the dimensions for the Hawk endbell and I got nothing.

 

Anyway,if you need the dimensions for the Koford or Cahoza hardware I've got plenty on hand and I'm sure we can figure out if it'll fit and if you dont mind taking a set of calipers to the endbell you've got on hand I'd really appreciate it.I'm curious as to what the ID of the Hawk can is or preferably the OD of the mounting flange on the alum endbell.

 

I also think theirs a chance for a 100$ ish bullet in the platform.

 

One last thing is the Cahoza hardware is worth the extra money.I've found that the Koford stuff takes a lot of time reforming,filing and such to get a nice fit.

 

Thanks

Robert


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#13 MSwiss

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 05:10 PM

I would think they would take the JK Hawk/Hawk 6 hardware, but I really don't know for sure.

I texted Tim, at JK, with a link to this thread.
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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#14 MSwiss

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 05:14 PM

PS-another possible source for an answer is Tracy Brown.

He has held something like a "Group F Super" class, at his raceway.

IIRC, it's a mini can with double BB's, an X12 arm, and an aluminum endbell.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#15 jimht

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 06:08 PM

I've been running an Open Group F class at my Raceway for years, limiting the arms to 27 gauge so a choke is unnecessary.

 

ProSlot  p/n 641/642 hardware fits the JK aluminum endbell with a little fiddling  or use the kinda junky stock plated aluminum hardware from either the JK or ProSlot plastic endbells.


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#16 havlicek

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 07:21 PM

It looks like the Hawk hardware will fit...just measuring it.  Since my thought here is to keep things simple and inexpensive as possible, I will see about doing that as opposed to something else that requires more work and money.  I can even put some of the very thin teflon tape I use for powder coating on the bottom of the brush plates.  I am worried about using steel screws for the cups and hoods, but that seems to be the way to go.

 

 

 

Anyway,if you need the dimensions for the Koford or Cahoza hardware I've got plenty on hand and I'm sure we can figure out if it'll fit and if you dont mind taking a set of calipers to the endbell you've got on hand I'd really appreciate it.I'm curious as to what the ID of the Hawk can is or preferably the OD of the mounting flange on the alum endbell.

 

Hi Robert.  I'll get those dimensions to you tomorrow.  My tough math goes like this:

Aluminum end bell: $20
Can and hardware: $20
Magnets: $10 (for the stoopid-strong solid neos)
Armature: $40
Can bearing: $10

*It very well may be that the stock poly neos are up to the task here, since they measure stronger by a good bit than the ceramics in the old Mura C can motors.  I just did a PS4002 with the solid neos and a #27 wind, and the motor seems to want "more arm".  I think a #26 with the poly neos should be bangin'.  That would bring the price down.  ***Of course, there's no assembly charge in the above, because people already do arm-swaps in these motors.


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#17 Robert BG

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 08:30 PM

Thanks John,

As far as insulating under the hardware goes.If you feel it's required I'd use Kapton tape.It's easy to apply and is designed just for such purposes(high temp insulation etc) I've used it on aluminum endbells in the past with good results and it withstood group 27 cobalt motors temps as a insulator one a endbell that lost its plating.

I haven't bought any in a while but I'm pretty sure that it has come down in price.But if not or If you cant find any,send me a PM and I can mail you some since I've got rolls of it from when I used to make voice coils for speakers.Once you use it you'll instantly find other uses for it too,I'd be willing to bet you could wrap armature stacks with it too,but that is for another thread ;)


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#18 havlicek

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:31 AM

Hi Robert...the stuff I use is good to beyond 400F, and is very thin.  It may not be necessary, but I feel is good insurance and certainly will withstand temps beyond any the end bell will experience.  It really doesn't have any sort of typical adhesive that could ooze out either.  Actually, I'm not sure how it sticks in the first place, but whatever you put it on must be clean and dry or it doesn't work.  Interesting stuff and seemingly a perfect fit for the task.


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#19 havlicek

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 07:30 AM

More Robert:

    The stock hardware does fit the aluminum end bell.  I placed the hoods and bottom plates on the end bell and used toothpicks to align the hoods, plates and end bell screw holes.  Interestingly, I used a set of the stock hoods and plates (*not clearanced), and they don't seem to project further inside of the end bell aluminum than the internal limits of the end bell.  So it would seem that whoever designed the end bell may have moved the holes further out by a few thousandths so that further clearancing is not needed with a nominal .200" O.D. (is: typical modern sized) com.  I will recheck all this when I build the first arm of course, but now I have to find where I put the darned insulating washers and 0-80 screws.  :)

On your questions regarding dimensions:

*Both the stock plastic end bell and the aluminum version have an O.D. of approximately .765"-.766"
*The can I.D. at the flange measures slightly smaller at .763"

This makes sense in that, for a tight "snap-fit", what is actually happening is that the can is being forced to deflect outwards as the end bell is inserted.  What I don't like is that, after inserting and then removing the aluminum end bell, the anodizing on the end bell was slightly marred.  I suppose that what really matters is that each side of the hardware is insulated, but I'm wondering if the inside of the can flange should be polished/deburred, or even slightly relieved for a "slip-fit" rather than a "snap-fit".  This is a good example of why I would love to hear from people who have used these as to proper methods and practices.  As in winding and armature-building, it looks like I'll have to find out for myself by trial and error, and document it here so others have the information.

 

 

 

ProSlot  p/n 641/642 hardware fits the JK aluminum endbell with a little fiddling  or use the kinda junky stock plated aluminum hardware from either the JK or ProSlot plastic endbells.


As per above Jim, the JK hardware fits fine.  The hardware on the JK and PS minicans can both benefit from some flattening and straightening, and that gets more important as the motors are asked to play well with hotter arms, but that's to be expected.  One minor correction, the hardware on the Hawk is plated brass.  When you flatten and sand these things as I often do, you will find "yellow metal" is exposed under the very thin plating.  What I'm not particularly thrilled with concerning both the JK Hawk and PS4002 hardware is the very short bearing surfaces for keeping the brushes aligned.  Between that and the sloppier forming of these than even typical C motor hardware, you can wind up with brushes being everything from too loose to bound.  On such affordable motors, this isn't a surprise.  When the motors get "more serious", then it's a good thing to check out the hoods.  Even the bottom plates, which are stamped "flat" metal, can have some noticeable tweaks in them.


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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 08:48 AM

The problem with putting tape between the hoods and the the the endbell, is you are (somewhat) defeating the purpose of using the aluminum endbell.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#21 havlicek

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 09:32 AM

The problem with putting tape between the hoods and the the the endbell, is you are (somewhat) defeating the purpose of using the aluminum endbell.

 

Even if the tape is good to beyond 400F?  How does it defeat the purpose Mike?

I also just did an assembly...carefully...of the hardware using the tiny insulating washers, and get a dead short between both sides of the hardware.  It seems clear to me that the hardware screws are the point of continuity between both sides since I did use the tape under the brush bottom plates.  They must have removed some of the anodizing in the end bell's threaded holes, but even then, with the washers installed so the screw bodies and heads aren't in contact with the hardware, I'm not getting how the short is happening, but testing from buss bar to buss bar reads as a short.

 

-john


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#22 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 09:37 AM

 

Even if the tape is good to beyond 400F?  How does it defeat the purpose Mike?
 

Heat transfer issues?


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#23 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 09:42 AM

Guys have said that shorts quickly carbon up and create a insulating layer due to the nature of aluminum.


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#24 MSwiss

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 09:55 AM

Yes, you are reducing the heat transfer between the brushes and hoods, to the aluminum endbell.

You can not count on anodizing in the threaded holes to act as an insulator.

At Koford, the drilling and tapping was done after hard coating.

Maybe it's time to post some good pictures.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#25 MSwiss

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 10:03 AM

Guys have said that shorts quickly carbon up and create a insulating layer due to the nature of aluminum.

We tested at a high voltage, and the rare short was usually cured after one loud pop.

I assumed it was blowing away the material, creating a void.

Bottom line, I think I threw away maybe 1 out of 500 endbells, that was hopelessly shorted.

And as much racing as I did, I don't remember any endbell shorting related problems.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559






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