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Winding/rewinding... why not?


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 07:24 AM

Despite my best efforts, I still don't see a lot of (or any) home-winding going on... why not? Recently, I've been back at the minican motors doing a bunch of the Hawks and PS4002 variants, and these are a good candidate. They're inexpensive, and there are enough of them used, so they could even be free. You can learn how to take them apart and reuse them, so all you really need is:

* a very few hand tools you already have (needle nose pliers, X-Acto knife, screwdriver, etc.)
* a soldering iron you already have

* a half pound spool of say some #30 wire (a few bucks on eBay)
* a winding crank you can make easily and a clamp you can have made or buy.

It's better to have unbalanced versions of the motors, but even the balanced versions will run OK. D motors are still plentiful as well, and their larger size makes them a little easier to work on.  

 

Helloooo... "can you hear me how?"


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John Havlicek




#2 Pablo

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:16 AM

Despite my best efforts, I still don't see a lot of (or any) home-winding going on... why not? 

 

- because you're doing a far better job at it than I can

- you buy quality glue in bulk I can't afford for just an arm here and an arm there. Can't buy the good stuff over the counter like 1969.


Paul Wolcott

#3 The Number of

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:30 AM

As Pablo said, you do it better than I have the time to learn to do it. Noose and Steve Koepp paint better, Tony P and Bud Bartos build better chassis than I can. What you need is an apprentice because when you are done (hopefully not for a long long time) there will be no one to carry on.


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#4 havlicek

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:40 AM

- because you're doing a far better job at it than I can
- you buy quality glue in bulk I can't afford for just an arm here and an arm there. Can't buy the good stuff over the counter like 1969

 
I don't buy the glue in bulk, Pablo. I buy it in one-pint trial-size, and more than one person could chip-in to buy the stuff. Oh and, the "good stuff" over the counter in 1969 was nowhere near actual "good stuff," it was just probably better than what you get in the hardware store now!   :)
 

As Pablo said you do it better than I have the time to learn to do it. Noose and Steve Koepp paint better, Tony P and Bud Bartos build better chassis than I can

 
Well, that doesn't make any sense, Bill. Why build chassis or paint bodies at all then? There will always be people better and worse at anything you can think of. Winding is just like painting and chassis-building, it's crafty and fun, and others having done things before us should never be a reason to not do something. No one would be doing anything if that were how people looked at all sorts of things!


John Havlicek

#5 The Number of

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:45 AM

John,

 

It comes down to time. I am closer to the end than the beginning so I have to choose what is important in what little is left, I think that is the same for the majority on this site.

 

If you can find a younger person to pursue this that should be your focus.


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Bill Fulmer

The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#6 Geary Carrier

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:55 AM

Gots tons of excuses.


Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#7 Steve Deiters

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:56 AM

I think an interesting approach would be if there is an endbell that readily fits the Retro Hawk Motor and the fact that there are so many of these motors out there and eventually burn up it could be an interesting exercise to "resurrect" on of these motors. The stock arms look easy to strip the old wire off.

 

The question would be if the comm would be re-useable. If it is not is there a readily-available aftermarket one? Also some reference points for the timing marks based on the reorientation of the brushes with an endbell arrangement.  Cost to rebalance could be a factor also, but not insurmountable.

 

Sounds like a blast from the past or at least an electrical flash from the past.



#8 Robert BG

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:33 AM

I definitely plan on trying to wind a few ,especially since I know more now than when I first tried to do it. If anyone wants to share/split some of the stuff like epoxy I'd like to hear from you.

 

I even have my eye on a winding tool at Micheal's that is meant for making wire jewelry. I think with a little work it'd suffice to get started winding arms and it's less than $10-15.

 

The reason I havent just yet is the costs, granted it's not a lot but right now I'm concentrating on my race program more than other aspects.

 

But as I said earlier if someone wants to split some of the epoxy I'd pull the trigger and give it a go. It's just right now I can't justify the costs on something that most would go to waste so hopefully someone else here is on the fence, too.


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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:40 AM

Like Bill said, "time."

There are a ton of fun projects, myself and others, would like to tackle, but only have so much time in the day.

Also, a good portion of Slotbloggers race, and 99% of racing these days is running spec motors, as manufactured by the factory.

Not only is rewinding not required, it's illegal.


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#10 Racer36

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:52 AM

I wound my lifetime quota of arms when I was in my teens. A good portion of them went up in smoke, but it's the thought that counts.


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#11 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 11:38 AM

John,

 

I “get it” (as if I even had to say that).

 

However, rabid racers don’t, and probably won’t. In fact most will argue they can’t.

 

Some might even go as far as saying they shouldn’t, and neither should you (or I).

 

Unfortunately, we are trapped in the 21st century.

 

What a shame…  Build on! :D



#12 MSwiss

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 11:45 AM

Steve,

 

Your post smacks of "you should be enjoying this hobby the way I/we do."

The jillion views, compliments, words of encouragement, and advice are proof no one is discouraging or suggesting John should stop winding.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#13 Dennis David

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 11:59 AM

John,

 

While there might not be many takers as far as rewinding armatures the work you do and the instruction you give does not fall on deaf ears. You are a true master craftsman and I and others are lucky to have you on Slotblog. Your work is valued and respected.

Take a break if you must but please never stop the lovely work that you are doing. Slot cars would be much the poorer if you got discouraged.


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#14 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 12:54 PM

Mike,

 

Please allow me to clarify: "You should be enjoying this hobby the way that most pleases you" (no smacking required) :laugh2: .

 

If it is being a rabid racer, fine. If it is owning and operating a commercial raceway, fine. If it is building motors or chassis or whole cars that are not allowed to run in races in the 21st century... that's fine, too.

 

In my case, you are correct; for me this is a hobby, an avocation, engaged in for the simple (and timeless) joy of doing it. Not subject to topical rules or culture.

 

Racing miniature cars, like racing full size cars, is in my view properly identified as a sport. It rightly includes rules, competition, excitement, and lots of controversy.

 

Both implementations of our mutual interest are equally valid. It pleases me greatly to know we agree that John should not stop winding.  :good:


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#15 olescratch

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:04 PM

To add to the many other points that have been listed, I will not be showing the comms/arms that I have destroyed LOL! 

 

I know that you may think that nobody is trying but the truth of the matter may be that "we" just haven't been able to come up with that arm that is functional yet. I, being terrified of the possibility of electrocution, have a documented fear of electricity. I tried to solder the connections on one of my attempts. I know you already know the end result. I never knew that arms got that hot. 

 

Then I tried the welding. First thing that happened resulted in a big spark, and one entire segment of the comm vaporised. Once I changed my pants and stopped saying every four-lettered word I knew (and a couple made for the occasion), I put everything down. 

 

Just recently I've decided to try again and made a purchase from Bill of stacks and comms. I do believe that once I'm able to get a weld that will hold and not scare the shirt out of me, I will be able to have something to show. 

 

It isn't easy! Your work keeps me motivated. I know that I have expressed this to you in the past, but once again, I would be willing to attend a "class" to learn. I see from time to time that painting classes/seminars are offered at some of the tracks. Would it be feasible to hold winding seminars so that people can get an idea of the best way to do things at "local" tracks? For instance, instead of a race, see if enough people would be interested in paying for materials to come to build then run what they built? 

 

I do think that people would do more with this aspect of the hobby if there was something that could be done with the motors on a larger scale than what is "allowed" at this time.


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#16 Dennis David

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:05 PM

For me the main joy is watching my car go around the track while I make car noises.
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#17 Dallas Racer

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 02:54 PM

Like Bill said, "time."

There are a ton of fun projects, myself and others, would like to tackle, but only have so much time in the day.

Also, a good portion of Slotbloggers race, and 99% of racing these days is running spec motors, as manufactured by the factory.

Not only is rewinding not required, it's illegal.

 

This. Rewinding Is fun and I rewound a few R/C arms way back in the day, but it serves no useful purpose for racers.


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#18 havlicek

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 03:10 PM

 it comes down to time. I am closer to the end than the beginning so I have to choose what is important in what little is left. I think that is the same for the majority on this site.

 
Hi Bill,
 
Well then, I get why you're not into trying it... and my post wasn't aimed at you or anyone "specifically." Certainly someone who has the time and is a little interested would be my prime target.
 

I think an interesting approach would be if there is an endbell that readily fits the Retro Hawk Motor and the fact that there are so many of these motors out there and eventually burn up it could be an interesting exercise to "resurrect" on of these motors. The stock arms look easy to strip the old wire off.

 

The question would be if the comm would be re-useable. If it is not is there a readily-available aftermarket one? Also some reference points for the timing marks based on the reorientation of the brushes with an endbell arrangement.  Cost to rebalance could be a factor also, but not insurmountable.

 

Hi Steve,
 
I think the Hawk and PS4002 endbells might fit them... or be close enough, but even one set-up can be used and reused again and again to test arms. As I mentioned earlier, the D motors are a little easier because of their size. The comms on the Hawk and PS4002 are reusable, it just takes a little yanking around to get them open is all. There have also been loads of Tradeship comms on eBay lately, and those are absolutely fine for milder winds... and you can solder those winds as well. You don't even need to consider balancing until the winding part starts to make sense.
 

John,
 
I “get it” (as if I even had to say that).
 
However, rabid racers don’t, and probably won’t.  In fact most will argue they can’t.
 
Some might even go as far as saying they shouldn’t, and neither should you (or I).
 
Unfortunately, we are trapped in the 21st century.
 
What a shame…  Build on!

 
Oh, I know you get it, Steve, and there are still people who build and run vintage "style" cars.  :)  I mean, I've done a lot of motors and arms for people, so they're going somewhere!?  Sealed motor racing is cool and all, and this doesn't have to have any bearing on all that.
 

 I know that I have expressed this to you in the past, but once again, I would be willing to attend a "class" to learn.

 
Someone had mentioned this some time ago, I think it was at Buzzarama in Brooklyn. Anyway, I said I would do it, but nothing ever became of it. I can't see myself going to Ohio though, Brooklyn would be far enough, and Port Jefferson would be far better!   :D
 

There is a ton of fun projects, myself and others, would like to tackle, but only have so much time in the day.

Also, a good portion of Slotbloggers race, and 99% of racing these days, is running spec motors, as manufactured by the factory.

Not only is rewinding not required, it's illegal. 

 
Hi Mike...

 

Yep, I fully understand the time thing, and winding has meant putting aside other stuff I like to do, and that part is starting to bother me. I also get the racing thing, and it really has nothing to do with this. There have been a good number of people who have expressed interest in all this either publicly or in PMs. Bill Bugenis has sold parts to people as well. Then too, there are vintage races in Europe that allow all sorts of motors, and I send a bunch over there. At the bleeding edge, there are still open classes where anything goes, and I do work for people whose local rules allow for handwound arms.  

 

However, these arms and motors don't have to be raced, they run just fine without track marshals and lane stickers :) so the no-nos involved with sealed motor racing aren't really applicable. This is more about "vintage" and just pure fun than racing, and it's a real hoot to see your car scoot for the first time with an arm you wound. Like 1965 all over again!   :D


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#19 havlicek

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 03:17 PM

This. Rewinding Is fun and I rewound a few RC arms way back in the day, but it serves no useful purpose for racers.

 

Well again, there are more people doing slots than just racers, and some racers' local rules (both here and abroad) allow handwound arms and motors with no seals. So if a person is a racer, and doesn't want to try this, he needs to understand that there are others for whom this all is available.  

 

When I started doing this again, some years back, I got a fair number of "Why would you do that when you can just buy motors?", which is a different sort of thing than "my racing doesn't allow this." Then why scratchbuild or paint bodies?

This isn't about racing, so if that's all you want to do (which is a great thing!), then my question wasn't even aimed at those folks.


John Havlicek

#20 MSwiss

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:44 PM

John,

 

Been meaning to follow up on this, but I wanted to get to a real computer where it's easier to use some quotes.

 

Get ready for some tough love.

 

Despite my best efforts, I still don't see a lot of (or any) home-winding going on...why not?  Recently, I've been back at the minican motors doing a bunch of the Hawks and PS4002 variants, and these are a good candidate.  They're inexpensive, and there are enough of them used, so they could even be free.  You can learn how to take them apart and reuse them, so all you really need is:

* a very few hand tools you already have (needle nose pliers, X-Acto knife, screwdriver etc.)
* a soldering iron you already have

* a half pound spool of say some #30 wire (*a few bucks on eBay)
* a winding crank you can make easily and a clamp you can have made or buy.

It's better to have unbalanced versions of the motors, but even the balanced versions will run OK.  D motors are still plentiful as well, and their larger size makes them a little easier to work on.  Helloooo..."can you hear me how?".

 

 I tried to solder the connections on one of my attempts.  I know you already know the end result.  I never knew that arms got that hot.  Then I tried the welding.  First thing that happened resulted in a big spark, and one entire segment of the comm vaporised.  

 

So you portrayed winding as an easy hobby to get involved in, but it really isn't.

 

You forgot the whole "you really need to braze the comm connection" thing.

 

If guys are going to take the time to get involved, I doubt many, if any, want to do it just to say they did.

 

IOW, what's the point of doing 2 laps, have the solder fly off the comm connections, and starting over?

 

Maybe you need to sell your homemade rig to the interested winder, and post up on You Tube, a video, of your technique.

 

Hi Mike...yep, I fully understand the time thing, and winding has meant putting aside other stuff I like to do, and that part is starting to bother me.  I also get the racing thing, and it really has nothing to do with this.  There have been a good n umber of people who have expressed interest in all this either publicly or in PMs, Bill Bugenis has sold parts to people as well.  Then too, there are vintage races in Europe that allow all sorts of motors, and I send a bunch over there.  At the bleeding edge, there are still open classes where anything goes, and I do work for people whose local rules allow for hand wound arms.  However,  these arms and motors don't have to be raced, they run just fine without track marshals and lane stifckers :) so the no-nos involved with sealed motor racing aren't really applicable.  This is more about "vintage" and just pure fun than racing, and it's a real hoot to see your car scoot for the first time with an arm you wound.  Like 1965 all over again!   :D

 

Of course, everything is not just racing, but people that spend time just blasting around the track, are spending their precious time, doing just that.

 

You have more time to wind, because you don't spend time at the raceway, and that makes you pretty unique.

 

I doubt many, if anyone, who does this as a hobby (not his primary business) has a higher "crafting, to pulling the trigger" ratio.

 

You're like a vegetarian who makes the World's Greatest Hamburger. 

 

And that is fine.

 

But you shouldn't be disappointed that others aren't of your mindset.

 

If you already enjoy doing it, I don't understand why you need kindred spirits also participating in it to keep enjoying it.  

 

But if it is bothering you, like post #13 mentioned, put it aside for awhile.


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Mike Swiss
 
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Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#21 havlicek

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:54 PM

Hi Mike,
 
Boy, that wasn't all that tough!
 

So you portrayed winding as an easy hobby to get involved in, but it really isn't.
 
You forgot the whole "you really need to braze the comm connection" thing.

 
But *you* forgot* that soldering the comm with #30 winds is completely fine.  ;)  If someone gets that far and has some success, they might want to take it to the next step!
 

Of course, everything is not just racing, but people that spend time just blasting around the track, are spending their precious time, doing just that.

 
I've spoken to more than a few who actually race these things in Europe, and there are some who are winding over there! I'm sending these things all over the planet, somebody's using them.
 

You're like a vegetarian who makes the World's Greatest Hamburger. 
 
And that is fine.

 

That is actually a perfect description... thanks!   :D  I owe you a brewski!
 

But you shouldn't be disappointed that others don't
 
If you already enjoy doing it, I don't understand why you need kindred spirits also participating in it to keep enjoying it.

 

Not so much disappointed as confused. I don't "need" kindred spirits to enjoy it at all, as much as I'd like to be able to share even more. I know that sounds crazy after thousands of posts, but I'm a crazy guy!
 

But if it is bothering you, like post #13 mentioned, put it aside for awhile.

 
Not at all. If I gave the impression that winding is bothering me, it's really more that I have other side interests, and only so much time in the day (the "time" thing mentioned above).

I'd pack my winder up with a couple of blanks and some wire in a heartbeat if people wanted to learn more!


John Havlicek

#22 swodem

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:13 PM

Why better to be unbalanced?

#23 havlicek

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 06:39 PM

Because it's a good bet that some (much?) of the imbalance that was corrected was due to sloppy coils.

On these motors, the last pole is often piled on top of the other two. That means more wire and more weight on that pole. When you rewind that arm, it's likely that the balancing done would make the arm more out of balance with neater coils than it might have been had it not been balanced at all. Better to start off with a clean dewound arm that's probably "OK" as far as balance.
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#24 swodem

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 07:48 PM

Ahh, I understand now.



#25 Pablo

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:23 PM

John, I'd like the glue info, please. You probably posted it years ago in your thread but I'd have to dig deep to find it. That will eliminate one of my biggest excuses.
 
I've never done the weld thing, but I'm sure silver solder will work for me up to the point of arms that need shunts. I could leave those up to you, until you stop providing your services, at which point I'd need to either learn your weld technique, or custom order from the industry.
 
Another factor is, hand cramps. Winding, even using a winder, really is hard on my worn hands.For some reason I get more pleasure from soldering burns than winding cramps  :laugh2:  (little voice in the back of my head says "aw c'mon, Paul, take an 800mg Motrin, eat a banana, and stop crying").  :laugh2:
 
Lack of sources for lams/shafts. There are a zillion arms with straight shafts laying around in this country - too bad almost all have holes in them like Swiss ( :D ) cheese. Those without holes are usually the ones with really thick, and poorly formed, lams.
 
Endbells for vintage motors are almost all used up, at least the ones that collectors desire.
 
Most of us have no clue where to buy a decent comm or decent wire that isn't 50 years old, or of questionable use in a slot car motor.
 
What Swiss said - they are illegal in racing, therefore the demand is low.
 
Nobody can dare say I'm not doing my part - I've built lots of vintage cars and encouraged them to actually be run. 95% of them become shelf queens, but the owners know a Pablo car has been tested on a full-size 1/24 commercial wood track to my satisfaction.
 
Some day they may have "P" arms, who knows? I'd have to ramp up my arm game considerably, and I doubt the winds would look surgical like yours. But they'd perform OK, I hope. :)  If they didn't they simply wouldn't leave the Ranch. ^_^
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Paul Wolcott

#26 boxerdog

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:23 PM

John, I'm not at all sure how to respond. There is always the time factor, sure. Many of us have too many hobbies, I certainly do. But the older I get, the more respect I have for true craftsmanship. So for certain things, I defer to those who are truly obsessed, and this applies to 1/1 cars as well.

 

There are things I enjoy doing and I do so if I can meet my own standards. There are other tasks where I either can't or won't achieve the results I want. I truly enjoy looking at an arm you have done, or a chassis by Jim F or Tony P. And I follow Rick T, Jairus and Pablo religiously. I learn what I can, try to do my best work if I build, and if it makes more sense to buy the product I do so.This allows me to spend time doing things I do well, and avoids a lot of aggravation sometimes.

 

And I build a lot of cars and motors that never get raced, just abused occasionally. There you have it. 


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David Cummerow

#27 LindsayB

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:42 PM

Like Swiss said - the only class I know of where handwound (non-tagged) armatures are legal is Grp 7. An armature with a comm non-brazed won't cut it, as a matter of fact we can't keep pinions on the shaft these days without doing something special (either pinning or torching). And on a fast track non-capped comms are borderline.

 

PS, John your arms look really good and seem to be of a very high quality with engineering that most people would struggle to achieve - I build cars to because I like racing and being competitive, but it is the racing side that I get my buzz - not so much the building.


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Lindsay Byron

#28 Pablo

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:57 PM

Racers, by nature, will always use the best equipment they can.

Look at tech sheets from old magazine articles of the big races - the pros used this arm specialist, that can, this endbell, those wires/flags, etc. I see lots of bodies by Noose. :)
 
Mike Steube comes to (my) mind - astounding chassis builder and driver, but he used Bill Steube built motors. Do ya blame him?  :D
 
I build and sell custom vintage cars of all types, all over the world.

When they have that "H Power" arm or motor, it's like selling a high end automobile - no salesmanship required.
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Paul Wolcott

#29 Robert BG

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:30 AM

As far as a class goes, I'd like to see a motor building seminar to help folks and you could definitely add arm winding to one of the higher level classes.  ;) 

 

I build all my own stuff from 16Ds on up to Group 27s and opens and even so I'd be interested in such a class because there is always something to be learned.


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Robert Fothergill

#30 havlicek

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:05 AM

Hi guys...
 
Whew...i t's going to be tough, but I'll try and hit the highlites:

Pablo, the epoxy I use comes from a company called "Cotronics," and I believe they're in good old Brooklyn. The particular Cotronics epoxy I use is their "Duralco 4461."  It can be had in a one pint trial size for $100.
 
Duralco 4461

It says it has a shelf life of six months, but you can extend that by several times by keeping it cool (mine stays in a small fridge in the garage), and it's really the catalyst that will degrade first, so that should be kept in the fridge more dilligently... only taking a small amount out at a time.  Arm supplies can be had from Bill Bugenis... he has quality shafts, lams and comms.  (BTW, I *think* that Bill will also make up complete arm blanks that have the lams pressed and have been powder coated, but you'd have to speak with him to be sure.)  

 

For magnet wire, you want at least 200C temp rating, type ML is (I believe) the good stuff. Kevlar can be had on eBay or from places that sell supplies for tying flies/fishing supplies. I've seen arms you've wound, you know how to do winding, so all this wasn't really aimed at you because you've "been there done that"!

 

Last, the brazing is one of the more difficult things. Comm tabs and wire need to be very clean and non-oxidized... but... good silver solder (no acid) done properly should be good up to many #29 winds... probably not on hot short stacks.

As for the illegality of hand wound arms, it's really besides the point. My questions about all this aren't aimed at folks who only want to race in sealed motor classes or classes that mandate a tagged arm. It's simply about a very interesting part of the hobby that was once as common as oil of wintergreen. Loads of people here have done winding in the past, and there are few things as cool as pulling the trigger on a car where you built the chassis, painted the body, wound the arm, and built the motor. I guess... it's just "vintage" in the same way as scratchbuilding is.

Last, yes, the vintage parts are drying up for sure (see Steve Okeefe's "Vintage Style" thread). Aside from vintage motors, current motors that have removable endbells are good candidates for all this... D and C motors, minicans, and others. For a while, I did some of the SCX RX42B motors, which are, in many ways, a close modern analog for the Mabuchi FJ13UO. The endbell arrangement is a little weird, but there are solid magnets and an easily-strippable armature in there! Of all the vintage Mabuchis, the FT36D seems to be the most plentiful, and being the largest of the Mabuchis, it's also the easiest to work on.

Dave C: Sure, people who are already as engaged in the hobby as they want to be or can be aren't my target here. I'm really only talking to those who have an interest in all this, but for some reason haven't dug-in!

Lindsay: Again, classes that don't allow handwound arms or even "built" motors are besides the point. I don't know what classes there are that do allow this, but I can tell you that I do send out a good number of arms and motors that people actually do race... I guess (?) under specific local rules. These are everything from minicans, to C motors, vintage classes, drags, and road cars both here and abroad.  The Europeans who do vintage races seem to come up only certain times of the year, I guess they have larger meets at specific times every year.  I'll often get like seven or eight "pretty rough" motors from some of them I have to cobble together .  :)  

 

Anyway, there are events to race these things, but racing isn't really what this is all about. I doubt that most of the beauties that Pablo, Rick, Jairus, Steve, etc., build get raced in anger!

Robert: Motor building is a very specific thing, and there are a lot of people who have spent time showing their methods. Pablo does some very clean and particular work in this area, so I feel confident when he gets one of my arms it has a good chance of surviving! These little motors get the heck beat out of them, and even the "use-and-toss" Chinese motors take a heckuva beating because of poor chassis and gearing issues (not to mention being bathed in acid flux and over-oiling). I get to do the autopsies on a lot of them!


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John Havlicek

#31 Steve Deiters

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:18 AM

As to the question of epoxy. 

 

What I used to do back in the old days was just regular old two part "clear" epoxy. Coat the desired areas and bake in an oven at 300 degrees for 3 minutes. Done. Cures glass hard. To position it for baking I took a piece of cardboard and poked a hole in it and passed the non-comm end of the arm through it standing it on end. Make sure you don't get any epoxy in the slots of the comm. You will get some flow off the armature downward as it heats and thins.  This would be considered "normal. Overall this works like a charm. 

 

This approach may sound "old school," but we are not talking about large gauge winds-23, 24,or 25 gauge-mega HP high revers here.  These are small gauge winds that would lend themselves well to this type of expoxing process. The wire gauges are so small it may even preclude the need to "tie" the comms, but it might be good insurance.

 

The hardest part of this whole process will be the soldering the wire on the comms. After a little trial and error it should work out. 

 

John H.: These Tradeship comms you reference, are they 0 degree timing? Some comms of that era had preset advance timing built in. Are Kirkwood or other manufacturers more contemporary comms readily available?



#32 havlicek

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:08 AM

Hi Steve,
 

What I used to do back in the old days was just regular old two part "clear" epoxy. Coat the desired areas and bake in an oven at 300 degrees for 3 minutes. Done. Cures glass hard. To position it for baking I took a piece of cardboard and poked a hole in it and passed the non-comm end of the arm through it standing it on end. Make sure you don't get any epoxy in the slots of the comm. You will get some flow off the armature downward as it heats and thins. This would be considered "normal. Overall this works like a charm. 

 
Yep, me too, but that old stuff just didn't flow enough to really penetrate (hence the old "coke bottle" epoxy jobs!) The Duralco 4461 starts off as a very low-viscosity material, and I pre-heat my arms at around 200+ F to make it flow even better. I then follow a set procedure to both help it penetrate right down to the laminations (I've taken some apart to see) and help avoid epoxy in the comm slots. Regular hardware epoxy is probably still fine for up to a #29 wind, if you do it the "old fashioned way," but I wouldn't use the "quick set" stuff, as it's even less heat tolerant and will gel while you're still working on it... especially with a "warm" arm!
 

The hardest part of this whole process will be the soldering the wire on the comms. After a little trial and error it should work out.

 
A good silver-bearing solder that is self-fluxing is about it. You can use a tiny bit of Nokorode, even though it says it's not for electrical connections, but just general soldering techniques will work. Everything should be clean, and more heat for less time is even more important here. Using not enough heat and staying on the joint for too long will stress a commutator.
 

These Tradeship comms you reference, are they 0 degree timing? Some comms of that era had preset advance timing built in. Are Kirkwood or other manufacturers more contemporary comms readily available?

 

Tradeship comms came/come with a few different timing advances built-in, so you need to be careful and take that into account when winding. To make things even more "interesting" :D , they are advanced CW from what I've seen, so to do CCW timing advance, you have to set them far enough to overcome the built-in advance and then to accomodate whatever CCW advance you're looking for. Always use the comm slots to figure timing, not the tabs, and you won't have any problems.


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John Havlicek

#33 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 04:55 PM

Is it Tradeship that used a different colored plastics for different amounts of timing? I'm not home at the moment to look, but I think they all had a square plastic nub at the stack end.of the comm. I forget if this nub was a locating pin of some sort or if it was always in the same location regardless of timing.. It's something that could be easily removed when not needed.


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#34 havlicek

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:18 PM

Is it Tradeship that used a different colored plastics for different amounts of timing? I'm not home at the moment to look, but I think they all had a square plastic nub at the stack end.of the comm. I forget if this nub was a locating pin of some sort or if it was always in the same location regardless of timing.. It's something that could be easily removed when not needed.

 

The Tradeship 36D coms were in three colors denoting the timing advance Bill, one neutral and two advanced different amounts (I think 11 and 22 degrees).  The 16D/26D ones (2mm shaft bores) that I've seen were/are a dark chocolate color.  I have both kinds here and neither has the nub.  The Mabuchi coms, and some others have that, including some modern ones.


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#35 Mark Wampler

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:48 PM

Far as myself,  I was very interested in winding, but very unsuccessful.  About 99% were grenades.  I enjoyed it, was motivated, but the talent wasn't there.   I remember only one decent arm I did. It was a 26d with 55 turns of 28.  Our local expert Larry Shepherd (eternal podium, 2011) could wind Pittman 65's for 3 volt performance in our enduro races.  Larry's motors were always in high demand back in the day. Winding a gift and a talent, plain and simple.


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#36 havlicek

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:01 PM

Mark...believe me when I tell you that I wound my fair share (*and then some) of grenades when I was a kid.  I can't be sure, but I seem to remember calling them "smokers" or something like that :)  The thing is, it only ticked me off and made me want to wind more, but there was a lot I didn't understand back then.  Also, the "successful" rewinds I saw back then were packed onto the arms and wound super ugly, so what I was emulating was not so great in the first place.  Fast forward to present day, and I had a much better idea of what to avoid and more importantly, why.  It still took me some years to get up to speed, and some of this I never had any exposure to in the first place.  I had never even tried brazing coms or powder coating as a kid (for obvious reasons).  Also, I never pressed stacks.  The only time I even messed with stacks was to remove some lams.  I *guess* that there might be a small amount of talent involved, but I think it's way more important to not get discouraged so easily, because failures will happen.


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John Havlicek

#37 Mark Wampler

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:09 PM

Well, when I got hold of a couple of Thorp arms, that did in my winding career..  I had a double 29 and a double 28 that were super sweet. By the time I quit,  Mura, Champion, Lenz all had their rocket arms.  Early '67 was the time I experimented with winding.  Of course now, with these FK motors, the incentive to wind is lacking.  It would be nice if there was enough interest in an amateur motor winding class of racing, say around the '66 era and limit wire size to #29 wire, stock magnets, etc


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#38 Steve Deiters

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:20 PM

It would be interesting if the class was developed around resurrecting (rewinding) "dead" JK Retro Hawks.



#39 Mark Wampler

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:21 PM

I was just thinking of the tons and tons of Retro Hawk motors, perfectly good except worn out brushes.  Everyone has them, so why not re-purpose them?  Have someone do a limited production run of conventional endbells and then let racers wind their own arms.  After all winding must have an end game and that being a motor that is mounted and raced.  A few years back,  Buena Park had an "Franken motor" race where everyone brought their hopped up FK motors to race.  There was only one such event, but was very interesting!


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#40 havlicek

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:22 PM

 

 

 It would be nice if there was enough interest in an amateur motor winding class of racing, say around the '66 era and limit wire size to #29 wire, stock magnets, etc

 

 

That would make sense alright.  It could even be limited to #30 wire and ceramic magnets in a C can Mark, as with the right setup, you would still have some quick racing.


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#41 havlicek

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:26 PM

It would be interesting if the class was developed around resurrecting (rewinding) "dead" JK Retro Hawks.

 

It would be simpler to just use Hawk or PS4002 motors, the parts are already there.  The sealed can type motors would be really long if you jut fit an end bell on them, making for some weirdly-spaced arms and maybe even some issues with chassis.

 

 

 

A few years back,  Buena Park had an "Franken motor" race where everyone brought their hopped up FK motors to race.  There was only one such event, but was very interesting!

 

 

I remember that and *think* (?) I may have built something for that while I was still figuring out all this armature stuff :D


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#42 Mark Wampler

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:27 PM

Even with stock ceramic mags, you can still do a # 29 or #28 wire wind.  If you're going to wind, it should be hotter than #30 wire, IMO


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#43 havlicek

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:36 PM

Even with stock ceramic mags, you can still do a # 29 or #28 wire wind.  If you're going to wind, it should be hotter than #30 wire, IMO

 

You could easily go to a #27 as well Mark.  I do get your point though, and #29 (like 50/29) wire would definitely make for some fast cars.  I *think* (as long as we're fantasizing here :D ) that short stacks would be a bad idea though.  #29 wire in a bone stock setup (just oilites) would make for cheap fast fun.  Of course...it ain't happenin' anyway. 


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