102 replies to this topic

[Rick]

I was wondering... I was not aware of slots back in the day but the best of the best are here again now.

What times did the cars run on a King in say 1967-68 with the big motors you used then? I realize much of the racing was done on tracks other than Kings, but that is what I identify with today. Using the handbuilt cars of the era???

[Dave Reed]

Rick...

Only the East Coasters will know how good the American blue track at Dick Lawson's Grand Prix Hobbies was on April 26, 1969. But some of the times were: Tony P at a 5.02 first lap then a 4.78 then a new national record 4.74... Bob Emott ran a 4.79... Brady ran a 4.83... Mike Tango ran a 4.93.

So it is safe to say the times were real good at Mac's in Columbus when compared to 1969. Also they were running anglewinders. No, I wasn't there but I have every issue of Car Model from '64-70.

[Rick]

Thanks, Dave.

So the times are close to what we have today on an original King at Mac's. Voltage is a little higher today but not bad for a comparison. The motors in the day were pretty wild but the magnets sucked so they were rather stuck until better came along.

If someone in 1969 would have had a PS Big Dawg they would have ruled the roost...

[Tim Neja]

Well I think the Can-Am D3 with a little TSR motor record on the King at BP is like 4.14!!

So the times are much better today. Those old motors did not have the horsepower of today, it's not relative.

FWIW,

Tim

[Rick]

The BP King compared to an original American is like comparing a road course to a drag strip.

Mac's is real American King and the times were for the most part in the low 5 second range. Hershman ran some 4.7s in practice and ran Ken's car to a 4.6 in practice.

[Dave Reed]

Well I think the Can Am D3 with a little TSR motor record on the King at BP is like 4.14!! So the time's are much better today. Those old motors did not have the horsepower of today, it's not relative.

That is just not true. The times on a Original Blue are the only true comparison of lap times. And as far as horsepower, one of those old motors in a well set-up modern slot car on BPR's great track would run easily in the 3 second range.

D3 is a great group, but posting how good your times are compared to old motors just shows how little you know about the old days.

And yes, I did race in '68-69, but only in OH and those old motors were REAL FAST!

[Fred_J]

Are there any original Kings left where a valid comparison can be made?

[The Bugman]

It would be very ionteresting to set up one of the late '60s-'70s powerhouse motors in a modern day D3 chassis to see just how fast it would be...

I'm sure it would have to be an anglewinder, because I think an inline would shred those gears. And with the new tracks/tires, etc., would be much better these days, my guess would be .4-.7 faster, especially with a driver of quality from the good ole days.

[markdshark]

Besides the launching pad, aka hump, in the straightaway, an original King has a slightly flatter deadmans and was just about flat through the finger curve.

Powerwise, some racers had issues with the American Raceways power supply. They complained about AC ripple and wanted a higher-amp power supply. So, around here, some raceways switched to battery power.

[Rick]

Slow down guys, this was never meant to be a debate, just a comparison thread.

It would be real easy to check out by someone loading an "in the day" mill for a few test laps at Mac's in May.

As to being an inline, that is the topic. Larry Shephard has a neat gear stabilizer I saw a few years ago for helping to hold the gear, maybe he can find a pic and post here...

[Jaz]

Just so you all can remember what it was like:

[Dave Reed]

Great pictures. Just so everyone will know, Mac's in Columbus still has their original American Blue King in the same building as they did in 1965. Same track, same building. You can see it in the R4 posts.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Then: hand-cut tracks with joints bumps and pebbly finish.
Now: glassy smooth.

Then: glue on tires only.
Now: spray glue.

Then: 1/16" clearance all around.
Now: .015 front, .047 rear.

I did do a couple D3 frames to the old rules and dropped a half second right there just with the clearance issues, and lost a lot of the "punched" drivability.

There is nothing a "Big Dog" does now that is different than the P-cans and later straps did, then except for the off-the-shelf bit and and they are much cheaper.

I could go on and on, but the essence is that the current tracks on surface and finish are 15/20% faster, the swoopiness of a modified King isn't that much help without airdams.

A couple years ago at one of the conventions, I was running an old anglewinder from '70 or so. I had pulled the monster power and used a softer 15 because of maintenance issues. That said, without air control, it ran high 3s on the BP King where in the day, it ran mid 4s with more power.

Fate

[idare2bdul]

I ran out of time to get a couple cars done before the convention but the new tracks do have some advantages for sure. The one area I'm concerned about is the bank on BP's Gerding King. It's not very banked and the cars are drifting coming out of the turn onto the straight heading to the deadman. I'm not sure a vintage full cobalt C-can open is going to punch that bank. Most of the other corners have increased banking. The new bank looks like far less bank than I remember.

[Ron Hershman]

Only the East Coasters will know how good the American blue track at Dick Lawson's Grand Prix Hobbies was on April 26, 1969. But some of the times were: Tony P at a 5.02 first lap then a 4.78 then a new national record 4.74... Bob Emott ran a 4.79... Brady ran a 4.83... Mike Tango ran a 4.93.

What winds were they running then???

[Rick]

I think IMO that the cars of yesteryear, because of many reasons, were probably not as fast as our current FK/PS making laps today on the same track. Motors were probably three times heavier too, compounding the lap time problem.

The big winds from that era were wound on much longer stacks and the magnets were very poor. Power was also mainly power supplies to again compound slower times and taming the big wire arms. By the time "they" figured out about batteries and wire harnesses, things had gone 99% to anglewinders. Have you ever seen a stock American wiring harness? LOL. We use it today for lap counter wire.

Retro today, as it attracts new younger blood, will actually be grooming the future boomers, when they hit 50ish...

[Larry LS]

Rick,

I am not sure about what gear stabilizer you mean, other than the ones that come on all the inline crown gears that Slot.it makes. I have been using these gears on my D3 cars with no problems.

If you look at the gear it has a brass hub that has a channel machined in it to keep the motor shaft centered so it can't move away from the pinion once set. I don't use it for that though, as it does create a drag effect with the shaft rubbing on the hub sides. I shorten my shafts enough to clear the hub channel.

I have been using their gears for some years with little to no problems. I do use their pinions as they are made to fit their 50 pitch gears. I have not used them on much powerful motors as yet. I use them a lot on my 1/32 scale cars and they last forever. On those I do use the shaft channel as they are less heavily used and a little rubbing won't affect them that much.

[Dave Reed]

What winds were they running then???

Don't know, Ron, as the tech sheets were missing in the 1969 issue.

But I'm sure Tony P will remember what wind he used in '69 to set a National Record with. So, if he reads this, maybe he will tell us.

[Ron Hershman]

I would think the cars of yesteryear would be faster due to their arm windings alone. Some were pretty hot to today's standards for D-can type motors...

If they also used today's tires, hinge systems, lower clearance... they would be much faster than they were back then on an American King.

[Dave Reed]

Ron...

Hope to have one ready for you to try at the next race at Mac's. Will be a Pacesetter with two-hole Mura loaded with a Havlicek arm. I have a couple of bodies to choose from, so that is still up in the air.

We will see what a good driver is capable of with some GOOD vintage stuff on a real American blue King...

[tonyp]

Ron, 25 single... Tango Mura armature in a Champion can.

This was anglewinders.

I started the Amateur Main on red, and the motor smoked on the first lap in the donut. LOL.

[Hworth08]

This can give a good comparision of the 1969 motors.

Of the few parts I retained from my first round of slot cars was my brother's Mura Magnum 1000 motor. With some help of the 1969 Auto World catalog I've learned this motor had the .030" can with the as-written "Famous Mura 'Semi Can' Magnetic Shield" or what was known as the "can in a can". Magnets were the Magnum 88X. Gray endbell but with the pent-roof hardware from the Mura-Cukras white endbell.

For whatever reason the motor also has Mura-Cukras 007 armature that was available with 24 single, 25 single, 26 LO, 26 HI, or 28 double. Except for the white endbell, the motor is the now famous Cukras 007.

I sanded down a pair of Gold Dust brushes with Champion light springs for the motor. The result was a motor that is a bit slower than a Parma Super 16D.

I thought the motor should have been stronger than that so I sent it to Monty to check. Monty trued the comm and zapped the magnets, which surprisingly were in good condition. There is really nothing to align on the old endbells.

Still the motor is no faster than a standard Super 16D, though the motor was the best at our local track for a while back in its day.

I don't know when the open class motors got some real power. Our track limited the arms to the milder motors and I wasn't very active after 1971. I feel pretty certain a person could trace the magnets to find the answer.

[tonyp]

Just some more info for comparison.

Track was epoxied but not real smooth.

The power was 12 volts, but the kind where motors would run red hot and not run real fast.

Bodies were GT coupes, spoilers were just 1/2" at the rear.

Tires were orange, nowhere near the bite of today's tires.

Still 3" wide chassis and track I believe.

1/16" clearance all around.

Glue was pre-Stick-it. Probably MCD by Champion or Dart. Applied to the turns, mostly on the outside.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

It is easy to find out!

That is why we have the convention!

I will bring one all original, Rick; you do a modern FK car but simply with .063" clearance all around. Pick a body to equalize the aero and we will see!

Grin.

I know that my '77 15 with a Porsche 917, old rubber and .063" all around was running in the low 4s a few weeks ago.

Fate

[tonyp]

I am putting my money on the old car with new rubber. And new thin body mounted with flexible sides like we use now.