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Timeframe for changes in technology in the late '60s?


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#1 YetiSRP

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:11 AM

Next year I'll have been involved in slot racing for 50 years, not counting my early Strombecker years or my Aurora four-ane set, so you would think I would know this but...

 

Want to do a fun project so I'd like to know;

 

1. About when did the switch take place from 1/8" axles to 3/32"?

 

2. When did anglewinders become the norm? I'm thinking late '67, 68?

 

3. When did we go from endbell drive to can drive?

 

Thanks.


Jim Bandes




#2 MSwiss

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:07 PM

Jim,

I edited your title, adding some detail on the info you are looking for.


Mike Swiss
 
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#3 Mark Wampler

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:33 PM

Seems to me that advancements in Slot hardware came from SoCal.  Since I'm out in the sticks,  it took a month or so for the newest features to hit my track.  Floppy pans came out a few months before anglewinders came to us.  You would think floppy pans would have come around a lot sooner than '68, speaking from memory and location.  Those soft threaded axles  I don't miss.  Drill blanks probably came out maybe '67?


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#4 Samiam

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:41 PM

If only there was a book available with this bit of Slot Car history. :search:


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#5 S.O. Watt

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:59 PM

Look on this site under "Pro Racing Motor and Chassis Timeline" under the "Independent Scratch Builder".

 

     Pro Motor & Chassis    


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#6 YetiSRP

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 03:20 PM

Massively informative.

 

Thanks


Jim Bandes

#7 Dallas Racer

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 04:28 PM

Look on this site under "Pro Racing Motor and Chassis Timeline" under the "Independent Scratch Builder".

 

     Pro Motor & Chassis    

 

That's awesome! I can't believe no one responded to that thread.


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#8 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 05:01 PM

That's a very interesting chart which leads me to a question.

 

In 1968 the introduction of 'low profile guides' is listed.  What exactly was considered a low profile guide?

 

Is a 'Jet Flag' being considered a low profile guide since if memory serves me correct weren't  'Cox' guides the racers standard. I don't remember ever seeing the milled type of low profile guides we have available today.

 

Bob K.



#9 Phil Hackett

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 05:18 PM

The switch from 1/8 to 3/32 happened **around** 1970... I wasn't racing for 2 years between 1970 and 72... when I left it was 1/8 everywhere and when I returned it was all 3/32...

 

The anglewinder became *a thing* late '68 to mid '69. Somewhere in the haul of periodicals I recieved should be the race report of Sullivan winning a race in Texas with an anglewinder. I had several anglewinder chassis in 1969...

 

The switch from endbell to can drive was related to the anglewinder chassis change. IIRC, the endbell drive motors ran the wrong direction for the anglewinder cars... so.. swap the ends unless you had the Lenz motors/armatures (a left-handed Mura!)


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#10 tonyp

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:26 PM

Jerry Brady was the first to use 3/32 axles using stainless steel surgical tubing his father found for him for reducers.

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#11 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 10:12 AM

Axles:  The MRRC 1/32 scale rail racing kits of the late 1950s came with 3/32" axles and press-on wheels.  I machined my own set screw rims in the early 1960s.  Early axles may have been piano wire and prone to bending, but drill blanks have always been the option to use.  Since most of the racers used 'off the shelf' parts, threaded axles came in 1/8 and until the wheels were made in that size, the big axles were most common in 1/24 scale.


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#12 Half Fast

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:54 AM

With all that glue, why did you need those multi hinged marvels of chassis?.

 

Couldn't you simply have slammed any old "lead sled" through that muck and let the glue do the "handling" for you?

 

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#13 Mark Wampler

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:05 PM

Well, IDK,  glue and down force make better drivers?  That might have contributed to slot car demise.  I'm glad threaded axles went out with 1/8 diameter. :D    


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#14 Phil Hackett

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 05:06 PM

With all that glue, why did you need those multi hinged marvels of chassis?.

 

Couldn't you simply have slammed any old "lead sled" through that muck and let the glue do the "handling" for you?

 

Cheers

 

No.


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#15 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 06:45 PM

Many changes were happening so fast in the late 60's.There were thousands of racers racing at hundreds of tracks. And credit to them would IMO go to someone that was a pro that used those changes and was winning with them.I am not trying to take anything away from anyone,but there were guys building all sorts of great stuff  and great ideas,but if you weren't on the world stage you weren't noticed for your inovations.Slot car builders and racers from back then were pretty smart.If you can build it you did .The rules were pretty much run what you brung.And  also on the point made about heavy glue,I don't recall much glue being used before 1968 or 69.



#16 Mark Wampler

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 09:17 PM

  also on the point made about heavy glue,I don't recall much glue being used before 1968 or 69.

 

One of the fastest tracks on the Central Cal Coast was a 220 ft glassy surface track that used zero glue!  The fast guys were using silicone capped spongies.   Keeping the dust off was the only track cleaning necessary.


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#17 NSwanberg

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:38 PM

 

One of the fastest tracks on the Central Cal Coast was a 220 ft glassy surface track that used zero glue!  The fast guys were using silicone capped spongies.   Keeping the dust off was the only track cleaning necessary.

If we used silicone capped spongies the racers and renters would all be helping to keep the tracks clean. I find tack cloths work very well under such conditions.

 

 

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#18 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:59 AM

I only know of how the tracks in my area on Long Island were and they were a clean surface with nothing added to them .The cars would swing out in the corners.That's all we knew so that's what delt with.You could "Nerf" off the car in the lane next to you in the corners pretty easy,so driving back then was a little different then.Also when you hit the bank turn your car would swing out.We would call it peaking out.You could change that by changing your gearing.You could also change your traction by changing your gearing.There was a lot of of different types of tire traction additives you could buy from the store but many guys had there own homemade stuff.Alot of us used oil of wintergreen straight or mixed.I used lestoil cleaner,and other household type cleaners and of coarse lighter fluid.When glue started showing up on track surfaces,it changed everything.Cars got lighter,spoilers started showing up ect.I'm not saying they didn't have these things earlier in slot car racing,i'm saying now these things actually were their to make the cars handle better and were not just there for looks.I worked at the store I raced at in the 60's and I saw first hand how it all took a dive.We had new car kits that were already outdated in weeks.and the weekly racing went from having many racers of all ages to just 20 or so men racing because their cars were so much faster than the kids cars so the kids stopped showing up.It basically turned into a kinda club instead of a store.The store owner and I were great friends and in 1969 when he told me he was going to have to close the door we both cryed.A very sad day.I totally understand that some peoples experiences that they recall from back then may be different then mine.I am just telling you what mine was.


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#19 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:12 AM

I have to agree with Brian Cochrane on the fact that there was a whole lot of building and development going on that didn't get no where near the recognition it deserved. Take Parma International Raceway and the Slot Shop in Elyria for example, in the late 60's-early 70's there was more going on  there then at most any raceway in the country and that is a proven fact by the races that were held at Parma and the caliper of the drivers that were coming from the Parma-Elyria area. You don't hear much mentioned of Michigan or even Chicago for that matter yet the racers in these areas were also developing ideas and winning races also.

 

Its funny how things go full circle when people realize that the fun has been ripped out of their hobby and then they look back and see that most of the damage suffered is irreversible. People participate in activities for the most part for the fun of it, very few participate in activities to make a living so when the activity becomes more work then fun people tend to leave the activity and leave with a bad feeling in them also.

 

Full glue racing just like today's constant motor bickering are probably the 2 main things that have driven more people away from slot cars then any other thing I have witnessed in over 50 years of involvement with the hobby. The glue thing seems to be somewhat under control however the motor problems are continuing and as much as some will not admit, the hobby is still losing numbers.

 

Sorry about the drift...Bob K.


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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:47 AM

Slot racing is losing #'s because a lot of the participants are passing away.

PS- I don't know of anyone not racing in the Chicago area due to motor bickering.
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#21 gc4895

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:54 AM

Cars aren't toys anymore and the entry level equipment is a pretty steep barrier to new entrants. Most new entrants want to start on the cheap which often means inexpensive, largely unhelpful controllers. The rtr cars offered are seldom set up to work correctly and beginners are clueless on tires. I watch a dad with kids floundering around with kids anxious to drive yet are frustrated by lousy rental controllers and shop worn wing cars. I now keep a box with two good controllers and a couple of old JK chassis, correct tires I store in bottles, Parma high downforce bodies and Death Star motors. It is very heartening to me to watch the kids light up when they actually get to start running laps without coming off every few seconds. Generally, they are having a ball like I did at that age. Like I still am.

Yes, the dad always wants to then buy my loaners which I can't sell cause then I won't have loaners. And he is shocked to find out good controllers go for $170 or so each. Kids have a good time but they are playing with my $600 of "loaner" stuff.
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#22 Dave Crevie

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:56 PM

When I was racing in the early/mid 60's slot cars had already graduated from being toys. If any of the older regulars

heard you call them toys you might get punched. Worst of all were the women that wandered into the facility and

called the cars "cute". 

 

During that time I traveled to many tracks in the SoCal area. I found that racers at tracks with formica surfaces mostly

used silicone tires when they came out. Those racing on plywood or masonite tracks seemed to stick with foams,

doctored up with some sort of concoction. Most popular was Coppertone tanning lotion. A few tracks did not allow

doping of the tires, and as I remember silicones were the most popular there. 


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#23 jimht

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:22 PM

Apologies for fueling the thread drift.

Mark Bauer said:

 

"...Kids have a good time but they are playing with my $600 of "loaner" stuff."

 

I don't get your point. Just how is this productive in any way?

You may be getting some satisfaction but you are not promoting the RTR product available at the Raceway.

Maybe it's not for racing as you define it but RTR equipment is not designed for that and shouldn't be anyway.

 

Granted, the raceway may need better cars and controllers for rentals, but your loaning out "$600 of "loaner" stuff", that is apparently tuned for racing isn't promoting that, eh?.

Pretty much any basic RTR can be made into a fun rental by dropping a motor in it that turns 15K-25K.

 

The only real purpose built rental, the Whisperjet, may have been suitable for the older tracks (built by American) but those tracks are gone and nowadays a detuned stamped steel anglewinder with a thicker body is appropriate...and why would anyone need a high dollar controller for that?


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#24 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 05:33 PM

If anyone thinks motors have not been a huge problem in this hobby they need to look at some of this hobby's history

 

I want .513 arms...No, I want .540.

 

I want bushings....No, I want bearings.

 

I want machine wound...No, I want hand wound

 

I want to pay $50....No, I want to pay $60

 

I want to build motors...No, I don't want to build motors.

 

I want single magnets.....No, I want Quads and more

 

I want sealed motors... No, I don't want seals and on and on and....

 

If you still don't believe me that motors are a huge problem with this hobby go over to the USRA Nats at Mid America and ask those guys how they feel about the latest 'Cahooza Catastrophe'.

 

I don't believe that the numbers are dropping off because of the participants dying but I can tell you one thing, unless something is done real soon there will be no one dying to be a participant.

 

Bob K.


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#25 MSwiss

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:13 PM

I'll concede I don't keep up much with built motor gossip.

But as far as dwindling #'s, I don't know.

Despite the beautiful spring day, we got 30 guys for a Hardbody race this past Saturday.

And if it was January, and we had 35-40, there would of been complaints that guys got home too late. LOL

If guys really want to race, they'll find something to race.

I'm curious, what were all the innovations coming out of Parma/ Elyria in the late 60's, early 70's?

The 888?

Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#26 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:07 PM

Most everyone from the Parma-Slot Shop area was building to their own beat. Everything from chassis' to custom controllers to tires were all personal hand built one offs and the results spoke for themselves plus the driver development was at a all time high. Tim Laganke was even a local doing his HO thing.

 

You should be very thankful to Brian Meharry's efforts to make hardbody racing a success.

 

Bob K.



#27 Samiam

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:00 PM

Can the current state of slots be defined by the sealed motors and spray glue used in much of today's racing?

 

There are sealed motors being raced in Retro, Hardbody, Wing, Flexi, and Plastic car. And in those screw together cars too. The JK Hawk Retro and Pro-Slot 4002FK being the two front runners.

 

Will the 2000's be called "The Spray Glue, Sealed Motor Era"?


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#28 gc4895

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:04 PM

Hey, I've seen the light. I'll tell the store owner I'm done with loaning. Serves him right. I'm sick of his selling stuff off my back.
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#29 MSwiss

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:58 PM

Most everyone from the Parma-Slot Shop area was building to their own beat. Everything from chassis' to custom controllers to tires were all personal hand built one offs and the results spoke for themselves plus the driver development was at a all time high. Tim Laganke was even a local doing his HO thing.
 
You should be very thankful to Brian Meharry's efforts to make hardbody racing a success.
 
Bob K.

Results spoke for themselves?

I guess I missed where that group of guys were traveling the countrywide, kicking Steube and Emott's rear end.

You said Illinois and Michigan wasn't getting any notoriety.

When I was at the Hinsdale Manufacturers Race, it was announced as the biggest race ever.

Our top local, Mike Staskie, was able to trade punches, at that race, and the year before, with Steube, Emott, Howie, Ray Gardner, etc.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember any Ohio guys in the mix.

While he went on to become one of the best ever, when I quit following Pro racing, in about 1971, Mike Staskie was a bigger deal than Jan Limpach.

And in Michigan, you might say the same about Rick Davis.

And I almost forgot about the guy who lived about a mile from me, Dave Bloom.

Other than being the most famous body painter in that era, he toiled in relative obscurity. Lol

And yes, Brian does a great job promoting Hardbody.

That's the point.

If you have good promotion, there is no motor bickering.

Just like Noose's great promotion in Retro East where they had 36 entries for a monthly race.

Where are all the guys quitting there?

Back to the Hardbodies, if you hung out, or raced at Chicagoland, you would see exactly how thankful I am for Brian's efforts.
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Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#30 gc4895

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:09 PM

Hey, what's a Cahooza Catastrophe? How many winds of 27 wire is that? Has Pro Slot copied it with a short version that fits in a Hawk can? I'm thinking I really need to test one of these! Sounds perfect for my GT12-Eurosport Cahooza chassis that I've been itching to get onto the flat track with my new Patriot body.
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#31 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:10 AM

Can't argue with you Mike, guess I forgot everybody ran a Emmott  chassis, with Dave Bloom bodies driven by Gorski controllers and Parma never happened and guys from Ohio never travel.....what was I thinking.

 

There is really no need to discuss this further because the amount of locked threads on this website let alone the facebook motor discussions proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that this hobby has motor issues and that is a undeniable fact but I could be wrong again because it sounds like if 30 people show up for a race all is well and good and the hobby will live on forever.

 

Heard a rumor.....

 

Bob K.



#32 S.O. Watt

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:07 AM

This thread sure went to Heck!


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#33 Phil Hackett

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:14 AM

I'll concede I don't keep up much with built motor gossip.

But as far as dwindling #'s, I don't know.

Despite the beautiful spring day, we got 30 guys for a Hardbody race this past Saturday.

And if it was January, and we had 35-40, there would of been complaints that guys got home too late. LOL

If guys really want to race, they'll find something to race.

I'm curious, what were all the innovations coming out of Parma/ Elyria in the late 60's, early 70's?

The 888?

 

The 888 chassis was a big thing if you didn't/couldn't build.  :D


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#34 jimht

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 11:24 AM

Oh yeah, the thread topic..

 

from 1964-1967 I was based at Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville Alabama and bounced around the South rarely ever visiting a Raceway more than once and there were hundreds of them within easy driving distance.

During that time we transitioned from wagon wheel sidewinder sleds with 36Ds to liteweight inlines with rewound 16Ds and foam tires.

 

I came back from Nam on leave twice between 1967 and 1969 and each time everything had changed again...transitioning to anglewinder sleds with feeble attempts at air control powered by D cans with over the counter Open arms.

By 1970 everything had stabilized. Slot cars were dead and we were racing C can anglewinders with functional air control, 3/32" axles and track applied glue.

 

So, regarding the original question, the answers depended on where you were and at best the magazines were 3-6 months behind what was actually being done:

For me:

1/8" to 3/32"-1970.

Anglewinders-1968

can drive-1970

 

YOMV depending on where you were, but damn it was a fun time right up until Hasse started modifying the tracks to make them "faster".


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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 12:03 PM

Agreed.

Faster tracks were the worst thing to ever happen to wing cars.
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#36 Dallas Racer

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 03:22 PM

I played sporadically with slot cars in the 60's with one kids race being my only race, and came back to sporadically race wing cars in the mid 80's. In the mean time lane spacing became wider. I never notice the difference (duh!) and didn't become aware of it until reading about it on slotblog in resent years.

When did the lane spacing become wider?

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#37 jimht

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 04:14 PM

Started with Hasse, who is a metric kind of guy.

 

Standard AMCR and Engleman spacing was 4" which is 101.6 mm.

Hasse rounded it up to 110 mm because 100 mm was less and I guess 105 mm just...wasn't...right.  :laugh2:

 

The lane spacing wasn't as big an issue as was the shortening of the straights that occurs as the corners get bigger.

The increased spacing made for a bigger corner and needed some straightaway shortening.

As we know, the bigger the corner, the better, less speed scrubbed off and higher entry speed equals higher exit speed.

 

I believe Ogilvie was the first to actually intentionally increase corner size on a standard design like the King...the result is, of course, faster corners and shorter straights=faster track.

 

Gerding's tracks are a logical extension, where AMCR Kings were 8' diameter turns except for the bank, the latest Kings all have 10'-11' diameter and instead of really slowing down for a tight corner and accelerating down a long straight, one mostly just holds the trigger down entering the turns.

 

All this really just applies to wing cars, as Swiss said, because the air control is so effective and out of scale.


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#38 elvis44102

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:42 PM

1. About when did the switch take place from 1/8" axles to 3/32"? 

 

2. When did anglewinders become the norm? I'm thinking late '67, 68?

 

3. When did we go from endbell drive to can drive?

 

1) around the time we also used briefly some sort of fiberglass axle that ground up the brass tube around 1970

2) we used to get the model car racing journal and around mid 1968 some body in California discovered the angle winder and published pictures in the paper

which resulted in everybody switching over even to the point if i remember correctly hacking an inline frame to do so just to copy it exactly

3) can drive more or less came very shortly after the angle-winder

 

as an answer to the insult to cleveland area around 1975 i nearly won an eastcoast regional event with a standard 888 chassis (heavy) at camens raceway with limpach pitting the car and montague putting in new motors

 

dont remember.. the car was a little slower than the rest but i went several heats without deslotting and found myself in the lead (probably chocked)...

 

mike stuebe was the best driver i ever saw as he practiced at parma i saw his reflexes stop him just short of other crashing racers so much that it was like watching poetry in motion


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#39 Bill from NH

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:11 PM

I don't know everything, but here are a couple answers to your questions.

 

1.) Those fiberglass front axles were Champion's Arcolite axles. A better alternative today might be kevlar kite rods, if someone wished to try them..

 

2.) Gene Husting, later of RC fame, built the first 1/24 anglewinder in 1968.

 

John, your name sounds very familiar. Did you ever race wing cars at C&C Raceway, Coventry, CT during the early 70's? I worked with a girl named Christine Wisnewski in the Boston suburbs back then, but I know I don't have the two of you confused. :)


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You have to be odd to be #1. :laugh2: 


#40 elvis44102

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 11:04 AM

i have family in Con and long island but i raced in Cleveland metro area (elyria,ohio) 1967-1975 years I started at 11 or 12 spent a lot of time dualing with Jan L not knowing he would go on to a few world titles lol.


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