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Shinoda x3


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#1 Mark Mattei

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:10 PM

Picked up these yesterday at a toy show.

 

IMG_4307.JPG

 

IMG_4304.JPG

 

IMG_4306.JPG

 

IMG_4305.JPG


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#2 MSwiss

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:17 PM

Very cool.

Are the rear tires silicone coated or just crusty?

If they are runnable, we should race them.

Mike Swiss
 
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#3 Pablo

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:57 PM

Very nice.  :D :good: :good:  Look - the rods on the red car actually form fit the body skirts.

 

Nice drop arms nice jail door work nice front wheels.

 

I can't find anything I don't like on any of them.  :o


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#4 Jairus

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 02:58 PM

Way too valuable to "race" Mike and you know that. 

Great find Mark!  Put them on the shelf and enjoy.  All are classic examples of vintage art.


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#5 MSwiss

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 03:28 PM

I don't have much of an idea what those cars are worth.
 
IOW, $200 each?
 
$1,000 each.?
 
Regardless, I guess I'm a little too used to Mark bringing over some real cool stuff to the raceway for us to play with.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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#6 Mark Mattei

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 05:46 PM

Rear tires, all coated silicones. Racing, bring out your Shinoda and I'll bring mine.

 

Value, was fortunate to get the three for $300 total, would have gone three times that. Been looking for them 10 years.


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#7 Pablo

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 06:05 PM

I think you got a very good deal for that price.  :)


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#8 MSwiss

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 06:09 PM

Mark,

Any idea where they originated from?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#9 havlicek

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:19 PM

Those are definitely cool cars.  Two 26D and one 16D, makes for a nice thingie-sampler!  I think they deserve new braid, brushes and some hot laps


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#10 Mark Mattei

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 08:01 PM

Origin, fellow was selling his slot collection at Kane County Toy Show, referred to them as thingies, did not mention Shinoda. Ask if he was from Detroit, said no but was from Michigan. Had the cars for some time, most of his collection was as found 1/24 60's hard body cars. The Shinodas were the most interesting cars he had.

#11 olescratch

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 08:28 PM

Awesome find!  Clean them up and take a few laps.


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#12 Maximo

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 09:20 PM

Wow!!!

 

I love those.

 

I am jealous now.

 

Darn...

 

Congratulations on an awesome purchase.

 

-MaxiMo


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#13 Martin

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:59 PM

Nice find Mark, love em, these are a super rare time capsule from 67/68 ish the peak of the thingy movement. If they were in my care I would not risk a wall shot or worse. You just do not find this history everyday. I would not even clean them, just brush down those braids and wipe down those bodies.  Best use them as reference to make replicas and drive the wheels off of them. The originals have survived without damage maybe 50 years give them a place to rest,show them off as survivors. IMO

By the way they may all be Dyna rewind motors, can not see the arms/balancing  or the sticker on the can to be sure. Mark can you rotate the arm and we can confirm for you.


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#14 don.siegel

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:14 AM

Great find Mark, and a more than fair price! Original Shinodas are very, very thin on the ground... 

 

Very interesting to see that two of the cars had heavyweight frames. Most of the period pix had them with either lightweight frames or the Dynamic based iso-fulcrum models. (altho I think the Choti Thingies in NorCal were even more lightweight, since the bodies were more aerodynamic). 

 

From what I can see of the 16D, that looks like a Dyna-Rewind - similar magnet shim in any case. Hard to tell on the other two motors, although I think Dyna used whatever cans/motors they could get - and come to think of it, the original I have is also Classic 26D based. 

 

Don 

 

PS: interesting that the seller would choose to sell this at a toy fair, instead of ebay - any ideas why? 



#15 Mbloes

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:30 AM

Love it, iron cross on one and a swastika on the other.


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#16 Mark Mattei

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:15 PM

Frame, motor, Dyna Rewind details. Why were cars not offered on eBay, just my speculation but the seller may not be online.

 

IMG_4308.JPG

 

IMG_4309.JPG

 

d1.jpg

 

d2.jpg

 

d3.jpg


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#17 Dave Crevie

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:41 PM

Geez, Mark. It seems all you do is pull a magic chain and this stuff falls from the sky into your lap. Those chassis were

certainly built by a pro judging by the joints. Are they actually Shinoda built or just very good copies? I don't know if I

could get into the thingy bodies, but I certainly would be up for racing jail door type cars. (If I can get my legs fixed). And

I would press for no motor rules, re-winds invited. Just specify a can size. 



#18 don.siegel

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 01:52 PM

Thanks for extra pix Mark. 

 

Yep, some nice craftsmanship there. Straightforward jaildoor and perimeter chassis too - no floppy body mounts yet! 

 

Two nice Dynas and one stock Classic - maybe he ran out of money? 

 

Don 



#19 Gene/ZR1

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:39 PM

On Dyna-Rewinds always use 7 tooth pinion and 33 tooth or 35 (if possible), or you will smoke the armature..

 

Check the timing rotation on the 16D and 26D, it appears the crown gear is on the wrong side.

 

Put a good repro body on, clean them up and run them, they will be fine.

 

Check the comm tab solder, if its gone, re-solder, that's indication wrong gearing was used.

 

On the orange 26D, it may be a 10 turn dewind, very popular around Dyna-racers 

 

Old Dyna-Rewind employee.

 

good luck, 

 

g


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#20 Martin

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 12:40 AM

By the way they may all be Dyna rewind motors, can not see the arms/balancing  or the sticker on the can to be sure. Mark can you rotate the arm and we can confirm for you.

 

Thanks for posting pics of the motor, etc. Dyna Rewinds were a very popular choice in the thingies I have seen. I had 26Ds in two of my race cars and they never lacked HP. Love'em, great motor.
 
Gene, love to hear some behind the scenes stories. What years were you there? When did they pack it in? And many more ??? if you have the time.


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#21 Detroit Dave

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:21 AM

Score! I'm so Jealous!


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#22 Martin

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 11:19 AM

Gene, as the expert, are all Dyna rewind motors CCW? I will have to check my old race cars because they are sidewinders. What happens if they are run CW?


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#23 Pablo

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 02:12 PM

Martin, I don't know the history, but any motor that is run contrary to it's timing will simply run tamer.

I can't think of any reason why it would be detrimental, other than performing more like a housecat instead of a tiger.

 

If I'm wrong, I'll take my licks :)


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#24 MSwiss

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 04:13 PM

On a low amp drawing motor, with light timing, like a TSR D3, probably nothing too negative.

On something like a 40 degree G27 motor, lots of negative stuff.

At a race,at the Koford factory, Les Wright hooked up one to break in, and went about to marshal.

During the race, we kept smelling hot epoxy, like someone was burning a motor. Except no one was slowing down.

Finally smoke came out of Les's pit, and he discovered he had hooked it up backwards and it had been running that way for at least a half an hour. Anyway, the red dye had turned black.

He let it cool down and tried it in his car, but it was slow, from going out of balance from the epoxy softening and the wires shifting.


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Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#25 Pablo

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 04:24 PM

OK, I stand corrected. Thanks, Mike.  :) :good:


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#26 MSwiss

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 04:46 PM

I almost forgot.

On a low power motor, what might happen, along with running a bit slow, it may not create enough back EMF to count laps.

It happened two Sanos ago, when someone with a motor with the red dot on the wrong side of the endbell, flipped their crown gear instead of flipping their lead wire.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#27 Gene/ZR1

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 05:09 PM

Martin,

Not an motor expert, sorry, (was just trying to support a hobby and gas was 19.9 cents a gallon or 5 gal. for a dollar)

My work history there, a few months or so, maybe 1969, that's a long time ago, $1.50~$2.00 dollars per hour, and it was all but over for slot racing by then anyhow.

I remember more about the basement shop layout (the basement left half).
 
Now, if I remember around 1968-69 some chassis anglewinder kits stated it could be build right or left drive, and RTR chassis stated CW or VVW ,drive. Reason?
I was an inline builder for the most part.
 
Pablo is correct, will run slower, no harm.
 
The comm solder tab for the most part will be centered between the laminations, look where the comm slots are cut. I forget what these comms were called. More common comms you can see the solder tab favors right or left between the laminations.
 
My 50 year left over motor check...from the endbell.
I still have some old 16D CW (sorry when I checked rotation, my 16Ds are from the bearing driven end, so that makes it ccw) and 26D are CCW Dyna's, from the endbell.  26D will scream with no problem detecting which is the fastest rotation.
 
From endbell-
I checked an old Champion 507, CCW
Old Muras CCW
 
I really miss that era, it was very special to me, such a short time, but it was the best time.
I hope I didn't get you to mixed up, maybe at my old age I got mixed up.
 
g
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#28 Martin

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 01:02 AM

Thanks, Gene, for your knowledge, insight, and willingness to share your story.

s a young lad, Dyna Rewinds had a touch of magic to them, and I could afford them with my milk round funding.

I miss that era also. This helps keep it alive.

MW
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#29 havlicek

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 06:18 AM

Pablo is correct, will run slower, no harm.

 
As Mike stated, slower, warmer... in all... less efficient. Also as Mike stated, the potential for damage goes up as the seriousness of the wind increases. Think of it this way, even a "neutral timing" armature such as the Mabuchis had (which had a comm tab to key the timing at a supposed "zero degrees advance") always had in fact a bit of advance because of imperfections. People who ran those motors more seriously would check the motor and scratch a "best rotation" arrow on the can... because it could be either CW or CCW.  

 

With inlines, no biggie, just flip the crown gear. Even if you didn't do that or ran a sidewinder, you would only be maybe wrong by a degree or so of advance off neutral. Then, as the winds got hotter, and more radical timing advance (for the time anyway) became the way to go, anglewinders made it necessary to be sure that timing advance was planned on while building the chassis. Running a pretty serious wind like a G20, which had more advance (and then too, there were "G20+" winds with even more advance) against the timing or in the wrong rotation, was a recipe for failure... although I don't think those motors were run with inline chassis(?).

The modern "FK" type motors, whether sealed or the minican type, are pretty serious compared to the old Mabuchi-era motors, and those are often run inline. They may not look all that impressive, but running them against the timing probably would noticeably shorten their life, not to mention degrade performance.  

 

With a motor like a Dyna, running it in the wrong direction long enough, and with enough of a "load" especially could definitely cause damage.


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#30 Martin

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 12:16 PM

Thanks, John, for your input.

 

Because I have motors that are sealed and do not want to take them apart, the only way I can find correct rotation is to run them. So will the amp draw show a happy motor and the correct rotation?


Martin Windmill

#31 old & gray

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 03:33 PM

Because I have motors that are sealed and do not want to take them apart, the only way I can find correct rotation is to run them. So will the amp draw show a happy motor and the correct rotation?

 

Martin,

Assuming you are talking about can motors, to determine direction of rotation: center a pole in the middle of a magnet; look down the brush (or brush holder); the slot in the commutator should be visible; IF the sot the slot is dead center the armature is timed at zero degrees, when the slot is off to on side, then this is the direction of preferred rotation.


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#32 Pablo

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 03:40 PM

Martin, the human ear can easily tell the difference.

Use low volts, like 2 or 3. Listen to it one way then swap wires and listen again.

If there is little or no difference, it's fairly neutral.

 

If it has some timing, you will be able to hear it run faster with the correct rotation.


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#33 Martin

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 10:43 PM

Thanks guys I will give it a whirl.


Martin Windmill





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