Jump to content




Photo

The "Reverse Wind"


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,198 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 07 May 2017 - 09:13 AM

     This is something I've spoken about several times, but have not yet really fully explained with pictures...my "reverse wind".  I stumbled on this idea years back when taking apart Mabuchi armatures.  I thought this was something they had done, which led me to try it, but later discovered what I thought I had seen on the Mabuchis was actually not at all what it seemed.  :)  Anyhow, my mistake in looking at those old arms still led me to try something that I have since refined a little and now use all the time.  

***The idea here is that, some winds on some arms (*depends on both the wind and the space available on the arm) wind up finishing with the last turn away from the com.  You can certainly just cross over the top of the stack with that last bit of the last turn, or even go diagonally back across the coil to the com with the entire last turn, and that's how it's traditionally been done.  There's (of course!) nothing wrong with that, but I wanted to come up with a different approach to finishing a coil built-up with an uneven number of layers.  My "solution" turned out to be simply starting the first layer at the outside of the arm stack...nearest the crown, instead of the traditional way, nearest the com or the shaft.  This creates a few weird things you have to get past, not the least of which is the "voice inside your head" (*uh oh...he's hearing voices!) that's telling you..."you can't do that"!  As with regular winding, starting-off is really important, but with nothing holding the wire in place, you need to figure a way to secure that first loop.  ***What I do is just make the first turn cross over itself before it gets back to the top of the stack like this:

IMG_2072_zpsckzs9bb7.jpg

This doesn't only secure that first loop, but reverse winding solves an issue related to "regular winding", that being the tendency of the wire to want to create spaces as you move away from the com, which in turn forces you to keep pushing the wire back as you wind that first layer.  Winding from the outside-in just seems to automatically make for a tighter first layer, which "can" (if you pay attention) make for a tighter finished coil.  Generally, I figure that whatever makes for a tighter, more compact, neater and more "stable" (*so the coil doesn't fall apart at the end as 6, 7 or even 8 layer light gauge coils tend to do) coil is the "right" way to figure a winding pattern.

Anyway, when you get back to the com with that always-important first layer, you wind up with something like this:

IMG_2073_zps3u7wzvcp.jpg

 

If you look closely, you can see by the light reflecting off the side of the coil, that the first "clinching" loop is heading back under the layer with a gradual curve.  At first when I did these things, I used to cross back under the top of the arm stack, but this makes for a sharp turn that I worried might cause a "hot spot" by stressing the wire's insulation.  I later decided to cross back under the stack sides instead as "insurance". When done with that first layer, the wire is headed up right towards the com tab it will need to be attached to.  After this, you just keep winding the way you normally would, but this uneven number of layers ends back at the com, which was the whole point in the first place.  If you pay attention, you wind up with a nice neat coil, and a tight one to boot.  You can use more tension on the whole coil than you would winding the "normal way".  The end result is pretty nifty, and even with trying hard, it can be really tough to get a 65/30 end up this nice when winding from the com end of the stack first on a lot of stacks:

IMG_2074_zpscbsryre7.jpg

No...I don't always try to get a #30 wind looking this nice, but this arm was for pictures :D


  • Jairus, slotbaker, Tex and 5 others like this
John Havlicek




#2 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,314 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 07 May 2017 - 09:55 AM

John,

I see you reduce the number of turns by one for each layer. Would it be possible to alternate the number of turns to produce one less layer and lower resistance?

Eg. 12, 11, 12, 11 ect
David Parrotta

#3 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,198 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 07 May 2017 - 10:42 AM

John,

I see you reduce the number of turns by one for each layer. Would it be possible to alternate the number of turns to produce one less layer and lower resistance?

Eg. 12, 11, 12, 11 ect

 

Hi Dave,

 

     That's actually not what's going on, although it looks that way.  If you keep reducing the number of turns and stepping back at both ends of each layer, you wind up too far away from the com at the end of a coil, especially one with so many layers as a #30.  I do (mostly) step back at the outside of the coils, but add turns "behind" the coils each time i return to the com end.  This both supports the coil so it doesnt tend to fall apart or collapse back there, but it makes it possible to not end so far towards the middle (*and away from the com) of the top layer of the coil.


  • Geary Carrier likes this
John Havlicek

#4 olescratch

olescratch

    olescratch

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 976 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ravenna, OH

Posted 07 May 2017 - 01:00 PM

I don't know for sure if you have stated this before, but when you are winding, do you complete your poles in a CW or CCW order?  Also, will it make a difference?  If this question is a bit confusing I'll go a bit furthur and state that I'm not asking the direction of the winds, but the direction you take in winding each completed coil??//  CW= poles 1-2-3; CCW= 1-3-2!


John Stewart

#5 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,198 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 07 May 2017 - 01:38 PM

I don't know for sure if you have stated this before, but when you are winding, do you complete your poles in a CW or CCW order?  Also, will it make a difference?  If this question is a bit confusing I'll go a bit furthur and state that I'm not asking the direction of the winds, but the direction you take in winding each completed coil??//  CW= poles 1-2-3; CCW= 1-3-2!

 

Hi John,

 

     Well, the direction you're winding dictates the "natural" direction you will be working on subsequent poles.  I use a separate piece of wire for each pole, instead of heading up over the com tab and keeping a single piece of wire going onto the next pole.  Because of that, I *could* complete the poles in either direction...but I don't, and it doesn't matter.  Think of each pole as a separate electromagnet.  It also doesn't matter whether you wind the poles CCW or CW.  I messed around with that some years back to be sure.

***Anyway, reverse-winding is a little "trick" or "tool" (however you want to look at it) that you may want to file away in the old mental Rolodex and give a try sometime.  You will probably find it useful some time or another.  I use it a lot myself, sometimes even on big wire arms.


  • olescratch likes this
John Havlicek

#6 Jaeger Team

Jaeger Team

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 444 posts
  • Joined: 27-January 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Palermo, Italy

Posted 08 May 2017 - 02:16 AM

Hi John, if I remember correctly, in the old days I was winding CCW going to next pole on the right (not natural direction), so the wire was going to the com tab from below an then going down straight and a bit hidden. For sure when I restart to wind I'll use that reverse-winding trick !


Maurizio Salerno

#7 havlicek

havlicek

    OCD Rewinder

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,198 posts
  • Joined: 20-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY

Posted 08 May 2017 - 04:43 AM

Hi John, if I remember correctly, in the old days I was winding CCW going to next pole on the right (not natural direction), so the wire was going to the com tab from below an then going down straight and a bit hidden. For sure when I restart to wind I'll use that reverse-winding trick !

 

 

That sounds like a "hemi" wind Maurizio, unless I misunderstood.  I do that sometimes also.


John Havlicek





Electric Dreams Online Shop