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Why did your track stop racing built motors?


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#1 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 01:30 PM

Another simple question. Why did your track stop racing built motors?
 
Did participation increase or decrease after the switch?


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#2 Samiam

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 02:56 PM

I'm going to guess because most racers just didn't want to or could not compete with a motor program like THIS ONE.
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Sam Levitch
 
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#3 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 03:11 PM

Touché.
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#4 Fast Freddie

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 04:25 PM

You don't think there are guys out there with that many sealed motors and RH tin cans? I amassed many motors during my building years and when I owned my track. We always raced built motors at my track mainly because sealed motors were unheard of.
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#5 Tim Neja

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 04:58 PM

Bottom line-- hand built motors are FAR more expensive.  And not ANY more reliable for speed than a cheapo sealed motor!  You still have about the same variability in race motors.  %5 will be rockets --  %5 will be complete TURDS--and %80 will be in the usable but not fast enough to WIN with category!! And--you eliminate all the TIME it takes to build and re-build your motor program!! Hand out motors eliminate even that--because now it's all about the luck of the draw--and not massive quantities of motors!! This discussion will go on forever!! :)


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#6 jimht

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 05:22 PM

Because not everyone wants to build motors and paint bodies and build chassis and etc. etc., but these are all things that can be added or deleted to make a race program appeal to different folks.

Participation always increases as things get cheaper and/or simpler.

One offers a menu and hopes that the customer will find something appealing.

This is why restaurants do not usually offer sushi pizza.


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#7 slotcarone

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 08:18 PM

:) I agree with both Tim and Jim--right on the money!!


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#8 NY Nick

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 09:07 PM

Two Built Motors 200. 20 sealed motors 226.

Same price.

It is what the racer want.


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#9 Robert BG

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 11:22 PM

Sam,

I've seen guys buy sealed motors by the hundreds and I've also seen "hot" motors sell for obscene amounts of money.
So the whole sealed motor series being cheaper to run is honestly a moot point. No matter what the rules are the big guns willing to spend big bucks will do so no matter what.
 
I see the reasoning behind it all but truthfully in built motor classes, you can compete pretty well if you spend your money wisely.
I honestly feel if you don't want to build them you can get what you need from pretty much any builder out there and be just as fast or faster than the guy with a massive pile of parts.
 
Let's take my 27 Lite program for an example. Now keep in mind that I'm just starting back and I'll be purchasing more as I go, but right now with only a few motors I'm right in the mix. When I came back to racing I purchased two CRP built motors from Lee to get me started and use as a benchmark. Then I built a few of my own. Out of the four I built, I sold one off to a drag racer and another to a guy to play with as they weren't up to speed .But they are happy as they got fast stuff to play with for a killer price and I could build a few more. So all in right now I have four motors and ten arms total right and every single motor I kept runs consistently in the mid to high 1.8s at PJ and one of them finished fourth in someone else's car. So out of six motors and a dozen arms I've got enough to play with the big boys in Lite.

 

Now if it was a class that I had to buy motors I can only imagine how many I'd have had to buy in order to be able to turn laps fast enough to qualify in the top five at a big race.  ;)


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#10 Samiam

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 12:43 AM

Robert;

 

The majority of sealed motor racers buy 'em and race 'em. Just like you race the motors and arms you bought. The very few who go to extreme measures to gain a competitive edge are not making up the majority of the field. They are usually the top A-Main racers who need every bit of performance to stay on top. 

 

And it's not only dollars. Time is a factor for many racers now. You can make more money. You can't make time.

 

How many Gp 27 racers were there at the last PJR Wing race?


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#11 NSwanberg

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 01:22 AM

Bob HILLpower at Downriver Speedway has an interesting take on build your own. He says cheatproof the armature and let the racers build. I kind of agree with him but I am for whatever produces the most racers and sealed motor seems to be the way to go.

 

When our oval series started it was based on an American Pro Slot wrapped, epoxied and balanced 16D armature in whatever ceramic magnet setup you could put it in. I was using lots of old stuff I never thought I would use again and doing well with it. The motor builders did the best and participants complained. JB then went to a Pro Slot Super 16D that he placed his own Downriver seal on with a record of the motor being purchased. I had no problem with that but there were still some people complaining. At least the Downriver seal meant you bought the motor there.

 

I floated the idea to JB about allowing a Parma sealed Super 16D motor to compete against the built, wrapped, epoxied, and balanced Pro Slot 16Ds and when you won a race with the Parma sealed Super 16D you then had to switch to the built 16D Pro Slot. JB felt the 16D would never be able to compete with the sealed Parma Super 16D. That is a debatable.

 

Anyway this strategy would allow new racers to get up to speed quickly and cheaply and still let the experienced motor builders build. Could that be a bad thing?


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#12 Half Fast

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 04:20 PM

How many Gp 27 racers were there at the last PJR Wing race?

 
Five.
 
Cheers.
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#13 Samiam

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Posted 14 May 2017 - 07:19 PM

I should have entered the race. I have some 20-year old Gp-27 stuff. I would have made the A-Main. :dance3:
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Sam Levitch
 
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#14 Rob Voska

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 06:53 AM

Local track ran 16D Parma 501 motors in GT1 class. Local track owner would cherrypick motors by putting body pins in power supply clips and running motor inside the bag to find balanced motors (not shakers). His friends would get those motors. We called them snake bit motors from the two small holes.  ou could not buy a good motor off the wall. When he died they found a pile of good balanced motors. It reached a point where I either quit or start a Group 10 class. I started the class. His orders went from $250 every two weeks to $750 a week because of controllers, power supplys, comm lathes, zappers, arms, set-ups, etc.... No arguing or cheating involved. Hand-out motors are fine but a seal only makes an honest person a sap. Funny, I went from running good to winning when the playing field was leveled and I didn't try to push my car beyond it's limits to keep up with "legal cheaters." Another guy simply had his own stickers printed. Built 16D motors myself with help from a friend.
 
When I started Retro racing the Puppy Dog motors had winds taken off and can lightened in the middle of the night to obsolete the Falcon. I quit. Seen that movie before. I only bought two PDs, not hundreds.
 
Koford sells C-can G12 motors from $75 to $125. Buy one and you have more HP than you need. Motors are rebuildable. Seems a lot simpler than buying 10 ($150)-50 ($750) lottery tickets, breaking motors in, hoping for the best, buying new chassis, bodies and still don't have what you need. Then motor wears out and start all over... Yes, I know they are too fast... they make chokes to slow them down. Parts are plentiful.  Some simple rules like .518" arm + - .002". Single mags, .535" max hole. If you want you could even say 30 deg timing. Motor would last a long time. Don't like that make arm a spec arm, spec can... simple!
 
This web site and other have hundreds of pages of "fairness" of sealed motors...

 
King tracks are nothing but a 155 foot dyno for sealed motors.
 
I go to the track to race not buy lottery tickets.
 
A sticker don't make a motor legal!


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#15 jimht

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 07:34 AM

A class where one does not build motors is about not having to build motors.

There is absolutely no proof that allowing built motors attracts more racers or is more fair.

 

If you don't feel it's fair, don't race.

If you want to build motors, don't race in that class.

If you feel you just have to race, please don't complain about doing something you didn't have to do in the first place.

 

The sealed motor racing is popular and works very well as an alternative to built motors.


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#16 Robert BG

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:19 AM

The majority of sealed motor racers buy 'em and race 'em. Just like you race the motors and arms you bought. The very few who go to extreme measures to gain a competitive edge are not making up the majority of the field. They are usually the top A-Main racers who need every bit of performance to stay on top. 

 

And it's not only dollars. Time is a factor for many racers now. You can make more money. You can't make time.

 

How many Gp 27 racers were there at the last PJR Wing race?

 

I guess I should have used SpeedZone's weekly Group 10 race as an example. It's by far the most popular weekly race they have and it uses built motors.For those that don't wish to build their own, they can buy one of Mic's right out of the case and run with the best of them.  ;) Oh and attendance is well above the average weekly Retro race in case you are wondering.  ;) I don't recall a week where they haven't had to run a A and B Main.

 

I used 27 Lite as an example mainly because it is a two-motor limited class. As we all know wings have a bad rep for needing a ton of built motors and I actually stopped racing years ago because of the need for a dozen motors minimum to be somewhat competitive. Thankfully these days it isn't so and you can race lites competitively for about the same as what a Retro program will cost. Believe it or not but I have a lot less in my 27 Lite gear than my buddy has in his Can-Am stuff and he too has less in his 27 Lites than he's spent on Retro and sealed motors.

 

Now you might claim that the guys buying dozens and more motors are a rarity but the fact is I saw three guys at SpeedZone before the last race going through at least 30+ motors each in the days before the race. The one guy, in particular, was using a dyno and sold three bullets (that I saw) for $100 and $150 that he found in several flats of motors.

 

So say what you like, but I've seen guys on multiple occasions spend more for a $12 motor that is a bullet than I've spent on most of  my 27L set-ups... But to each is their own.


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#17 jimht

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 10:45 AM

Expendable income will get expended; that's why it's called expendable income.

 

One more time:

 

Sealed motor racing is not about money.

Sealed motor racing is about not building motors.


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Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#18 Wizard16

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 12:48 PM

Jim, absolutely correct. There are those who like to build motors to race and those who don't - me for one. "Fairness" in motors is doublespeak for I want a bullet.

 

On the other had I Iove to build chassis so the flexi classes have less appeal to me. I race them because that's just about all there is here.


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#19 Justin A. Porter

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 02:01 PM

The past two years we've seen a considerable growth in Group 10 in the Ohio Challenge Cup, effectively taking the class off the "endangered species" list, and a great deal of the cause of that - I feel - has been the demonstrable ability of the basic Pro Slot 16D to compete in class, provided gearing and chassis setup are right. 

 

By dispelling the myth "you need $100 in motor to win" through demonstration, and then by showing the quality of available out-of-the-bag motors we were able to introduce newer racers to running the class, and then from there it's fun to see the reaction when these folks are told that the motor doesn't need to be thrown away when it slows down. 

 

But this took a ground-up effort. Conceivably, it could be done with Production 24 or GT12 as well.


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#20 NY Nick

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 05:25 PM

Some people like coffee others like tea.


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#21 Markomatic

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:05 PM

I like Wing cars. I like to build my own motors. I like build my own chassis if allowed and build my own bodies. That is the kick for me. I fiddle and putz around and then race against others to see how I did. I'm always looking for improvements and speed. Thats the name of the game for me. Others can do as they like. 


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#22 Samiam

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:15 PM

Mark,

 

If chassis building is your bag, then the Retro scene is where it's at. No motor building but the chassis portion is wide open. Have you paroozed this yet?

http://slotblog.net/...hassis-gallery/


Sam Levitch
 
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#23 Markomatic

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:08 AM

Sam,

 

I'm not sure what I'll end up racing but my heart is with Wing cars predominantly. Retro looks like fun as does Eurosport but I have to see what is available in my area. I have one wing car that I race at Alpha for a class Paul calls Group S. Basically any older wire type box stock chassis with a Mini Brute motor. It's fun but not as much as developing all the skills with building everything. There is still a difference in the cars depending on chassis and body setup as well as the luck of the draw on the motor.


Mark Miller

#24 Mike Jr

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:59 AM

 

I guess I should have used SpeedZone's weekly Group 10 race as an example. It's by far the most popular weekly race they have and it uses built motors.For those that don't wish to build their own, they can buy one of Mic's right out of the case and run with the best of them.  ;) Oh and attendance is well above the average weekly Retro race in case you are wondering.  ;) I don't recall a week where they haven't had to run a A and B Main.

 

I used 27 Lite as an example mainly because it is a two-motor limited class. As we all know wings have a bad rep for needing a ton of built motors and I actually stopped racing years ago because of the need for a dozen motors minimum to be somewhat competitive. Thankfully these days it isn't so and you can race lites competitively for about the same as what a Retro program will cost. Believe it or not but I have a lot less in my 27 Lite gear than my buddy has in his Can-Am stuff and he too has less in his 27 Lites than he's spent on Retro and sealed motors.

 

Now you might claim that the guys buying dozens and more motors are a rarity but the fact is I saw three guys at SpeedZone before the last race going through at least 30+ motors each in the days before the race. The one guy, in particular, was using a dyno and sold three bullets (that I saw) for $100 and $150 that he found in several flats of motors.

 

So say what you like, but I've seen guys on multiple occasions spend more for a $12 motor that is a bullet than I've spent on most of  my 27L set-ups... But to each is their own.

if you check their turnout on mondays it has not been very good lately


Mike Spisak, Jr

#25 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 12:08 PM

Mike,

I'm going this Monday and will have a fast loaner waiting for you if you go.

Dave

Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta


#26 Mike Jr

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:42 AM

Mike,

I'm going this Monday and will have a fast loaner waiting for you if you go.

Dave

thanks for the offer Dave but I no longer have any interest in the monday night racing!


Mike Spisak, Jr





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