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#51 bluecars

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:42 PM

Just drink some brake fluid, Pablo. :laugh2:


Robert "Red" Valantine :diablo: 





#52 tonyp

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:15 PM

Howie,

Bob tried those cars at Nutley when he got back from Texas, and in his words they were hunks.
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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#53 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 10:48 AM

Bob tried those cars at Nutley when he got back from Texas, and in his words they were hunks.

 

Thanks, Tony, that's why I said "probably for the better" they wouldn't let us race LOL.


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#54 tonyp

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 11:11 AM

Too many new ideas in one car all untested except in Bob's head.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#55 SlotStox#53

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:06 PM

Were they the chassis with the low CoG pan stops or bite bars (or whatever they were called LOL).

#56 tonyp

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:29 PM

I believe these were the small axle low CoG pan stop cars.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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#57 Martin

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 01:03 AM

"Nutley, when Bob got back from Texas", (Mid 1969).

 

Was Bob Emott the first on the pro circuit to use 3/32" axles (mid '69)? As often happens with a new race car design when you are trying more that one concept at the same time the results are not always the best, but can we say that the 3/32" axles was significant in itself and why did he not use them from that point on?

 

How long did it take for most top pros to convert to 3/32" axle. I'm trying to understand this timeline from racers that were there.

 

So we can say that most Pros were using 3/32" axles early '70, as Tony suggests. How much of an advantage was it?

 

Did anybody ever try 1/8" hardened steel tubing; that would have been a better fit for existing gears and wheels, but maybe not as strong? Now thinking the set screw would have distorted the tubing, so dumb idea. 

 

Side note in the how-to article Model Cars... Bob is using 1/8" axles so that is while still in England after the September 7t open race at Tottenham.

 

Bob was also building with split pans at that time. How long did that trend last with Bob and others? What was the thought behind this idea?

 

Tony has already answered this in another thread Pro chassis ID challenge:

 

"It was probably very late '69 or most probably early '70. It took quite awhile for gears and tires to come out for the smaller axles. Nutley had machined adaptors but they were a pain to use so most stuck with 1/8" axles at least in the rear until proper gears and tires were available."

 

I may be repeating myself in an effort to get greater understanding. 


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#58 tonyp

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:47 AM

Martin,

 

Bob believed this may be his car from the Texas race they were not allowed to race in after missing tech. It was the first small axle chassis as well as Jerry Brady's who was the one to come up with the surgical tubing to use as reducers in the wheels and gears.

11091D54-EB5E-40FB-A58F-CE575389EA81-7498-00000BA3B76050CB.jpeg

 

C13787D0-F2CF-4D0A-B376-3874397AF2E6-7498-00000BA3BEEDEBF6.jpeg

I used to have all the old slot papers on my iPad to look this stuff up but no longer have it to check dates.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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#59 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:57 AM

Love the flat wire and the pan stops. Very cool. I am not sure how strong the stops are.

 

He was using limiters to control body flex and now they run paper-thin bodies letting them bend. Things change.


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#60 MSwiss

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:23 AM

Tony,

 

I'm kind of surprised they weren't able to just use regular K&S brass tubing as reducers.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#61 tonyp

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:45 AM

It fit on the axle too lose.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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#62 Bill from NH

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:34 AM

I'm kind of surprised they weren't able to just use regular K&S brass tubing as reducers.

 

Some West coast guys did use K&S when they ran Cox 48 pitch spurs. The Lee Gilbert car in the Car Model multi-issue build is one example. East coast guys mainly used the Fass machined reducers.


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Some people burn rubber. I burn oil.  :roflmao: 


#63 Martin

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 12:40 PM

Thanks for posting that chassis Tony. Do you have any theory s on why the pans seem to have been made in 2 parts? Maybe from a split pan chassis?

 

Also the drop arm hole has been filled. All part of development i guess?

 

Very advanced looking chassis for mid 69, love the flat wire too, looks a little tricky  to work with it  though?  

 

K&S 1/8" tubing with a .014" wall looks like this. .125" minus .028"=.097" minus .0937(3/32")= a little over 3 thou  loose. Like Tony said. Would have had to make from scratch on a lathe to get a closer fit which I am sure some folks did while waiting for gear and wheel manufactures to catch up?


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#64 tonyp

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:16 PM

Bob built that particular chassis in the hotel room, so he may had originally planned to use a light weight drop arm and split pans up until he saw the track and that's what he had for parts.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#65 Martin

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:41 PM

Just to get a feel for the times, would you all travel as teams and end up at the same hotel  or were you all independent. Were there rivalries between manufacturers, or was it an east vs west thing?

Looking forward to that book.Ive been hearing about.


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#66 MSwiss

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:02 PM

K&S 1/8" tubing with a .014" wall looks like this. .125" minus .028"=.097" minus .0937(3/32")= a little over 3 thou  loose. Like Tony said. Would have had to make from scratch on a lathe to get a closer fit which I am sure some folks did while waiting for gear and wheel manufactures to catch up?


I think you meant 3 ten thousands loose.
 
I'm not sure if the ID ever varies much, but OD certainly does, from batch, to batch.
 
My original batch of precut K&S sleeves were probably right at .125" OD.
 
I had to ream the Parma King Crowns to make them fit.
 
The next batch I got in, 2 or 3 years later, were more like .1235", thus don't require reaming.
 
Instead, I have to put a drop of crazy glue, on the end, after installation, so they stay in place, with the set screw clearance notch, correctly oriented.
 
20170519_185422-1.jpg

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#67 Martin

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 10:58 PM

Mike, I am not sure what you mean. I meant 3 thousandths  that's .003" loose on the i.d. for a 3/32" axle. Not that bad but would have to feel it first to really know if it is good enough. You might get lucky.

 

I tried to make this as clear as possible, let me know if it is not? the mathematical number is actually .0033"  that's 3  one thousandths of an inch and  3 one tenths of a one thousandth of an inch.

 

.0001"= one tenth of a one thousandths of an inch

.001"= one thousandths of an inch

.010"= ten thousandths of an inch or 1/100th of an inch

.100"=one hundred thousandths of an inch or 1/10th of an inch( one lap around your dial )

 

All materials have specs with tolerances as you know. The best way to get that perfect fit is to machine i.d and o.d in the same operation. I do this stuff for a living. Just saying.

 

Found this to confuse you, but just so you know I speak machine shop not math class.

TalkMachinist
In general conversations or math class you may hear numbers spoken one way, in a Machine Shop, you may hear the same number described differently for example:
Keep in mind for the following:
In math class everything is based on 1.0
In a Machine Shop using Inch measurements, everything is based on .001" (one thousandths of an inch)
So, how would we say the following?
0.1000
in math class = "one tenth"
in a machine shop = "one hundred thousandths
    WHY? because if everything in a machine shop is based on .001 then there are 100 - "thousandths" of an inch
.0100
in math class = "one hundredths"
in a machine shop = "Ten thousandths"  
.0010
in math class = "one thousandths"
in a machine shop = "one thousandths" or "one thou"
.0001
in math class = "one ten-thousandths"
in a machine shop = "one tenth"
     WHY? because if everything in a machine shop is based on .001 then there is 1/10th of one thousandths of an inch
.00001
in math class = "one hundred-thousandths"
in a machine shop = "Ten Millionths"

 


 
 

Martin Windmill

#68 MSwiss

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 11:40 PM

Mike, I am not sure what you mean. I meant 3 thousandths  that's .003" loose on the i.d. for a 3/32" axle. Not that bad but would have to feel it first to really know if it is good enough. You might get lucky.
 
I tried to make this as clear as possible, let me know if it is not?
 
.001"= one thousandth of an inch
.010"= ten thousandth of an inch or 1/100th of an inch
.100"=hundred thousandth of an inch or 1/10th of an inch
 
All materials have specs with tolerances as you know. The best way to get that perfect fit is to machine i.d and o.d in the same operation. I do this stuff for a living. Just saying.

 

.003" loose would be awful.

That would be an .096"+ ID tube.

It would be unusable on a G7 car.

You must be used to dealing with MM, because your take on U.S. measurements, and it's terms, is way off.

You're right and wrong in the same sentence.

.100" is a tenth of an inch
.010" is a hundredth of an inch
.001" is a thousandth of an inch
.0001" is a ten thousandth of an inch

1/8" K&S brass tubing, if loose on a particular 3/32" axle, is loose by .0001"s, or ten thousandth's.

Along with the other junk on my resume, for 19 years, I was general manager of Koford Engineering, out of a lack of a better term, the Ferrari of slot racing.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#69 MSwiss

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:26 AM

Martin,
You totally edited your post.

It's way different than what I quoted and responded to.

Regardless, I reread your original post, and I misunderstood it, because you were going by doing the math K&S advertises, whole I've had 1,000's of pieces of that tubing, and sold 1,000's of Parma crown gears, sleeved with it.

It doesn't have an .097" ID, or I wouldn't of been able to sell 1,000's of gears.

PS- part of your issue is not having an "s" after "thousandth", to make it plural.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#70 Martin

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 02:51 AM

It fit on the axle too lose.

Mike I was trying to put some numbers on what Tony had experienced. It sound like you had a much different experience. I thought the math room talk was interesting. Now I know why people that do not live in a machine shop have different terms for the same measurements. Like I said I only speak machine shop not math class. But I did learn something.

Over and out. 

 

P.S. I fixed the s plural thing.


Martin Windmill

#71 Pablo

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:11 PM

For those of you who find the reducer tube issue interesting, I'm sure you'll love this also.

See posts 172 to 184 here:
 
HERE.
 
There are many ways to do it. The best method is the one that works.

You can do math until the cows come home but until you spin it at high speed you'll never know. :curtsey: :drinks:
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#72 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:32 AM

Not only was it the first car to have a 3/32" axle, it was the first car with a cut-down can for low CoG. That was the thing that was concerning to us. We had never tried those motors.
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#73 Martin

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 11:42 AM

Thank you, Howie, for confirming the first use of 3/32' axles on the July '69 Texas car.
 
It makes total sense to me also that the car he raced in Tottenham September 69 and maybe all of his cars from that point on had 3/32" axles?
 
I had not noticed this until an old friend brought it to my attention. I scaled it from the 3/4" front tires and got 3/32" front axle. Please take a look and tell me what you see.

tot1.jpg


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#74 tonyp

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 05:35 PM

Martin,

 

Once Bob and Jerry went to 3/32" axles they never went back. It took awhile for others to follow because of a lack of suitable wheels and gears.

 

I know I used 3/32" front axles with 1/8" rears for awhile until 3/32" rear hubs were available and Fass started selling his gears with built-in adapter.


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#75 Martin

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 11:50 PM

Thanks, Tony.

"Hard to un-ring a bell" I believe is the saying. I got out of slots soon after I got my first motorcycle and my local commercial track closed. I never saw 3/32" axles, serious air control, or a lot of things to come.

But I did get a good foundation for building and problem solving. Hope you know us kids were trying to figure out what you pros were going to come up with next.

Appreciate being able to communicate today with the trend setters. Not sure a lot of younger folks today are getting that hands on experience that I am so grateful for. Great times.
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#76 Dave Crevie

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 02:43 PM

That's the ticket! Getting the experienced guys to take the newbies under their wings. Nobody is so good that they don't have to "pay it forward."

 

We were all newbies once.


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#77 Pablo

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 12:39 PM

Anybody have any feedback for my build on the rear wingie pans?

Seems like unless braced real well, they'd be breaking off like a potato chip every time the rear ends takes hits.

 

I'm considering 3 options:

-do them exactly as the article shows

-extend the plumber wires back and make the pans longer, with another Tony P. type "U" hinge back there

-make them separate but give them their own Tony P. type "U" hinges

 

Keeping in mind no one has expressed any desire to buy the car so I will be playing with it myself.

In fact, I'll be running it hard.


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#78 Martin

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:02 PM

If I am understanding your question. The stationary part of the pan has a butt joint and you are worried about its strength correct?

 

My feelings are it is very well protected by the wheel and the pan extension wires that keeps the body of this stationary part of the pan. So why the concern? It was good enough at the time in the heat of battle for Bob and others that used split pans.

 

My question is what is the effect and theory of split pan and what is the dates it was used? Does seemed to be short lived.


Martin Windmill

#79 Pablo

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:25 PM

Whatever you call it, this type joint has little strength in actual practice.

A hinged pan can move and flex and even bend.

Here's what I mean:

 

IMG_6075.JPG

 

Snapped it right off with my fingers like a potato chip.

The leverage it provides causes it's own demise

 

IMG_6076.JPG

 

Not arguing, and I can appreciate it if you don't agree.

Doing it Bob's way is one of my options, but I'd be remiss in my duty if I didn't see a weak spot.

 

Bob had lots of good strengthening ideas to preclude damage. If he was here today, would he agree with this change?


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#80 tonyp

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 03:28 PM

Just put some small L braces on top that will hold them on.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#81 Pablo

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 03:30 PM

Thanks Tony, that sounds like a perfect solution, will do :)


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#82 tonyp

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 05:06 PM

That's what we started to do as they tended to fall off. Lol.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#83 Pablo

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 05:34 PM

Yup. I think Bob would be OK with that so I'm good now.

Thanks Tony :good:


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#84 Martin

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 06:52 PM

I do agree it is a week joint,  I have not seen that L brace before, It will help for sure. Are you using sliver solder at that connection?

 

I  still have this question,

My question is what is the effect and theory of split pan and what is the dates it was used? Does seemed to be short lived. maybe it was more trouble that it was worth.


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#85 MSwiss

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 09:22 PM

For reference, below is one of the last, if not the last chassis, Bob built.

 

He gifted it to me in about 2011.

 

If I would of decided to race it seriously, I would of added some bracing, including wire wrapping the axle, for sure.
 
20170530_211816-1.jpg

 

20170530_211832-1.jpg
 
 


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#86 Martin

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 01:29 AM

 This beautiful chassis, I'm sure it is a treasure of yours and a great reminder of your meeting with the late great Bob Emott.


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#87 Martin

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 01:45 AM

Now I have seen L bracing. Thanks to Jairus.

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#88 tonyp

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 05:10 AM

Martin the split pans were a way to keep more weight in the back of the chassis in the corners when the body would unload the main pans.




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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#89 Pablo

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 08:23 AM

I do agree it is a weak joint,  I have not seen that L brace before, It will help for sure. Are you using silver solder at that connection?

I can, but silver solder alone isn't going to prevent breakage the way it's designed.

I'll add some braces like Tony said, and everybody will be happy :dance3:


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#90 Martin

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 11:04 AM

Thanks Tony, the split pans seem like a good idea, how long were they used and what date were they discarded by the pros?

Do you know the reason they were discarded? were they getting knocked off or were they more trouble than they were worth?

Thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge.


Martin Windmill

#91 tonyp

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 07:31 AM

Martin. I would think we used the split pans for about a year or less. They, after much use were decided they did not do much especially as the glue got thicker and the chassis went to more forward weight. To compensate for the stickier tracks.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Noose Painted Bodies
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#92 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 09:08 AM

For reference, below is one of the last, if not the last chassis, Bob built.

 

He gifted it to me in about 2011.

 

If I would of decided to race it seriously, I would of added some bracing, including wire wrapping the axle, for sure.
 
attachicon.gif20170530_211816-1.jpg

 

attachicon.gif20170530_211832-1.jpg
 
 

Mike, that is one very nice chassis you got a hold of. Emott's builds were always something to admire and learn from.


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#93 Martin

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 10:21 AM

"Martin.I would think we used the split pans for about a year or less. They, after much use were decided they did not do much especially as the glue got thicker and the chassis went to more forward weight.To compensate for the stickier tracks"

 

Tony, thanks for the reply. I am very interested in the dates of that split pan use, it will help us date chassis with split pans for historical accuracy.


Martin Windmill





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